IFR Autos

[bellfest]

Over the years I have come across a few different methods to this and I thought this would be a good place for some further input.
What are your thoughts/procedures if you were unlucky enough to have a double engine failure (or single in a single) in the pitch black?
Rad alt of course and would they vary depending on expected terrain ie over water, jungle?

[800]

the unpoken is spoken

This could potiently happen from such wild failures as "main drive shaft" or "transmission" failures.
But if it did happen,

1. Enter Auto
2. Turn into last known wind direction
3. Adjust attitude to minimum descent speed, or max range speed etc
4. Mayday call, (yell lowdly Fxxxxxxxck)
5. Arm floats (if over water), Lights ON (if at night), Brief Pax (if any), Brief Crew
6. Set Radalt (if your lucky enough to have one), reset as required
7. Self brief (if any time left)
8. begin the flare (at the preset radalt), level at required height
9. adjust that collective (controlled if possible)
10. when all motion is ceased, exit aircraft

All pretty easy, whata ya reckon.
Hope you never have to use it!
800

[ATPMBA]

I'd perfer to have a 500' ceiling while flying IFR, if possible.

[bellfest]

800
What height rad alt and what attitude?

The one I tend to lean to is this
175' rad alt 60 knots+/-, depending on aircraft, 10 degrees nose up, once at 40 knots adjust to 5 degrees nose up and settle on while looking for the surface. This will slap you down at a surviveable ROD if you don't get a visual clue early enough to cushion with collective.

[800]

Sounds about right.
The assumption in all this being that you become visual at some height prior to the ground. Hopefully this all happens prior to the flare but obviously is much harder at night, over water etc etc especially with the lights (nightsun) pitching up (if not set correctly) as soon as you commence the flare (at night) but then hopefully back to illuminating the ground/water at the 50ft mark.
I use 170 Ft rad alt for the flare and 50ft rad alt (or slowing through 40kts) for the adjustment to 5 deg nose up and commencement of collective.

800

[check]

I remember 20 odd years ago when I did my Dutch IR Rating we had to simulate a double engine failure with the weather reported as fog. Following the procedures in the Ops Manual regarding height of flare, speed etc we would recover (powered) to a hover over the runway. The only one with brown pants was the examiner who could only watch while the instructor monitored, called heights and recoved the helicopter to the hover as the candidate pulled in pitch at the bottom. The system worked, but I don't know if this is still part of the current IR or whether instructor and examiner were feeling like having a little fun. There were 4 or 5 of us doing the exam that week and all went through it.

[thecontroller]

"I use 170 Ft rad alt for the flare and 50ft rad alt (or slowing through 40kts) for the adjustment to 5 deg nose up and commencement of collective."

sounds like a very different world from the R22!

[R22DRIVER]

Just abit!!!

If i was IFR in my 22 i would be kissing my ass good bye there and then!!!

God i want a proper heli!!

[inmate]

A Little Humor

Leave Landing Light OFF until the last 150'.
At 150' turn on light and observe surroundings.
If surroundings scare the living crap out of you, turn light back off (it makes no difference at this point in time).
As a final jesture, lower pants, place cyclic in unmentionable places and let the NTSB,CAAB or afilliated agency figure it out.
Fly safe

[800]

Originally Posted by thecontroller

sounds like a very different world from the R22!

Your right, it is a different world to the R22, but remember that the general principle of the autorotation is the same (i.e. a stablised, controlled descent until you get closer to the ground where you can use that inertia to reduce the ROD and forward airpseed).
Auto's in IFR just mean that you have to look at the clocks (instruments) until you hopefully get visual which ideally is prior to the flare.
Also, we are talking about helicopters usually in the weight category of above 3500Kgs. These aircraft will usually have more than 2 blades so the disc loading is slightly different to the R22.
Like everything, practice and situational awareness!
Like I said, hope you never have to use it.
800

[bellfest]

I'd perfer to have a 500' ceiling while flying IFR, if possible.

I'm not sure what you mean. AGL?

If I was in an R22 I would adopt a similair concept ,I would just reduce my height to 130/140 ft rad alt and repeatadly smack myself in the head for being that foolish

[CYHeli]

If you were IFR in a 22 you wouldn't be able to take a pax due to all the extra gear (instruments, etc) that you would need. And a bigger panel to put them in...

Could you imagine the tower when you called "Robinson 22 helicopter IFR, 2POB..."

[wlynx]

I seem to remember the military teaching for an engine failure IMC in a Gazelle was to :

Enter auto ( 35 kIAS constant attitude profile to minimize ground speed )
turn into last known wind.
enter standard 60 kIAS on cloud break when you gain visual references.
carry out normal engine off landing

OR

If no cloud break or in FOG maintain 35 KIAS until 35' AGL ( rad alt )
Initiate constant attitude engine off recovery ( No flare )

[NickLappos]

All good guidence below, the instruments are surprizingly effective in an auto to touchdown, especially in the bigger machines were things happen a bit slower and higher up.
Believe it or not, the US Coast Guard used to perform full autos to the water under the hood on all recurring check rides on the boat-hulled S-62 (H-52) which was a turbine powered version of the H-19. Brave fellows, and good pilots!

[MBJ]

The Royal Navy actually taught these in the Wessex to students (Love those big oleos)

They involved a constant attitude descent, into wind at 35kts, then at an appropriate height which I can't remember you pulled all the lever you had.

In the Wasp (Aah, Westlands!) which came down like a brick we were taught to start a 10deg flare at 150ft, and hold it - then pull all the lever at 20ft.

Of course, this was mostly aimed at a water landing. So pleased I never had to do it for real!

[Brilliant Stuff]

I was taught something like pull 10 nose up at 100' followed by 5 more immediately thereafter.

[helmet fire]

What are your thoughts/procedures if you were unlucky enough to have a double engine failure (or single in a single) in the pitch black

That is easy:
1. Lower the lever
2. GOGGLE UP BABY
3. Carry out auto visually!!!
4. Change shorts.

[bellfest]

You need your ducks in a row before you post on pprune don't ya
An amended "excluding NVG ops" may have been in order.
Nice luxury to have though .
How is it?
Still a challenge I bet?