Approved single engine in IMC?
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
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From: UK
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
In the event, my co-pilot saw an R-44 pass close by in cloud, an estimated 200 feet below. Someone out there is already pushing his luck.
This might be the same R44 that was over the Welsh hills at 3000ft last winter. The cloud layer was from about 500ft agl up to 10000ftish. It was on it's way to Wellesbourne.
London Info passed the traffic info to my boss, who was in a 109E at a similar level.
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: UK/OZ
The scenerio where it would be useful is in a R44news, where in the UK local weather can stop a flight but weather a few miles away is OK.
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Originally Posted by mickjoebill
The scenerio where it would be useful is in a R44news, where in the UK local weather can stop a flight but weather a few miles away is OK.
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,052
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From: UK
Originally Posted by mickjoebill
The scenerio where it would be useful is in a R44news, where in the UK local weather can stop a flight but weather a few miles away is OK.
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
In the hands of a IFR commercial pilot would 2 axis autopilot make any difference to his ability to transit through poor vis? (that would otherwise prevent the R44news getting to the job)
Mickjoebill
Mjb,
Poor viz (say <5km) is very different to NO viz (IMC).
But essentially (if the flight is to be legal AND safe), no.
B73
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: England
Originally Posted by Bravo73
Mjb,
Poor viz (say <5km) is very different to NO viz (IMC).
But essentially (if the flight is to be legal AND safe), no.
B73
Poor viz (say <5km) is very different to NO viz (IMC).
But essentially (if the flight is to be legal AND safe), no.
B73
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,937
Likes: 28
From: UK/OZ
So the (planned) R44 autopilot shouldn't have any affect on making a decision to go-no-go in marginal weather in UK.
Pity, an AS355 with all the IFR kit and camera has such short endurance.
Thanks for the input and keeping it simple
Mickjoebill
Pity, an AS355 with all the IFR kit and camera has such short endurance.
Thanks for the input and keeping it simple
Mickjoebill
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 173
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From: UK
Originally Posted by mickjoebill
So the (planned) R44 autopilot shouldn't have any affect on making a decision to go-no-go in marginal weather in UK.
Pity, an AS355 with all the IFR kit and camera has such short endurance.
Thanks for the input and keeping it simple
Mickjoebill
Pity, an AS355 with all the IFR kit and camera has such short endurance.
Thanks for the input and keeping it simple
Mickjoebill
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,030
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From: Over here
In the US, single-engine IFR is legal under Part 91 (non-commercial operations).
As for the military doing it, there is nothing the FAA can do about it in any case. The FAA has no jurisdiction over any public-use aircraft, be it military or civilian, as long as some government entity is doing the flying. No license, registration, or certification is required.
As for the military doing it, there is nothing the FAA can do about it in any case. The FAA has no jurisdiction over any public-use aircraft, be it military or civilian, as long as some government entity is doing the flying. No license, registration, or certification is required.
Joined: Jun 2006
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From: Maders UK
R44 IFR
In my humble opinion all this talk of IFR in a single engined robbo is utterly nuts. When I did my type conversion in the R44 we did some cloud flying and even though I hold a fixed wing IR I was glad I had chosen my brown underpants that day.
Even with a stabilisation device the R44 is far too unstable for anyone with an ounce of sanity to ever begin to contemplate entering cloud.
Single-engined fixed wing IFR however is a whole different ball game with its own inherent risks but in a robinson - no way.
Even with a stabilisation device the R44 is far too unstable for anyone with an ounce of sanity to ever begin to contemplate entering cloud.
Single-engined fixed wing IFR however is a whole different ball game with its own inherent risks but in a robinson - no way.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Over here
§ 91.205 Powered civil aircraft with standard category U.S. airworthiness certificates: Instrument and equipment requirements.
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
(d) Instrument flight rules. For IFR flight, the following instruments and equipment are required:
(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section, and, for night flight, instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (c) of this section.
(2) Two-way radio communications system and navigational equipment appropriate to the ground facilities to be used.
(3) Gyroscopic rate-of-turn indicator, except on the following aircraft:
(i) Airplanes with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of 360 degrees of pitch and roll and installed in accordance with the instrument requirements prescribed in §121.305(j) of this chapter; and
(ii) Rotorcraft with a third attitude instrument system usable through flight attitudes of ±80 degrees of pitch and ±120 degrees of roll and installed in accordance with §29.1303(g) of this chapter.
(4) Slip-skid indicator.
(5) Sensitive altimeter adjustable for barometric pressure.
(6) A clock displaying hours, minutes, and seconds with a sweep-second pointer or digital presentation.
(7) Generator or alternator of adequate capacity.
(8) Gyroscopic pitch and bank indicator (artificial horizon).
(9) Gyroscopic direction indicator (directional gyro or equivalent).
Thread Starter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 542
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From: Europe
Gomer; thanks.
Just so I'm clear, in the US then for private flying you can fly say a 206, IFR, (assuming complying with the MEL), enter controlled airspace and make an approach to an ILS just as if you were in an IFR twin, can you? From the MEL it appears you do not even need an autopilot?
Licence wise, presumably you just need to be Instrument Rated to do this?
So does quite a bit of such IMC flying in SE helos go on, or not really? If it does, I can't actually even remember seeing an accident on the NTSB site relating to SE LOC in IMC when flying IFR, which seems surprising.
Just so I'm clear, in the US then for private flying you can fly say a 206, IFR, (assuming complying with the MEL), enter controlled airspace and make an approach to an ILS just as if you were in an IFR twin, can you? From the MEL it appears you do not even need an autopilot?
Licence wise, presumably you just need to be Instrument Rated to do this?
So does quite a bit of such IMC flying in SE helos go on, or not really? If it does, I can't actually even remember seeing an accident on the NTSB site relating to SE LOC in IMC when flying IFR, which seems surprising.
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: the hills of halton
Correct me if I am wrong , but to be legal you must operate the aircraft within the flight manual limitations . If the aircraft does not have a flight manual supplement for IFR ops ( including the manufacturers MEL ) then can you operate in IFR conditions ?. There was a AS350BA that was IFR equipped in the USA as I recall on addition to the equipment in the FAR it had a coupled autopilot , second alternator and some gizmo that would give emergency hydraulic power past the limit of the accumulators. There was an STC for this I think. I was told that FAA would not certify an IFR machine now without a second hydraulic system ( I think the EC130 may have one ). From what I was told the mods required to install the kit were substantial .
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From: Maders UK
"I can't actually even remember seeing an accident on the NTSB site relating to SE LOC in IMC when flying IFR, which seems surprising."
In the UK we lose 1 or 2 helicopters a year through inadvertent VFR to IMC and subsequent LOC. Almost always VFR single engined aircraft with non instrument rated pilots pushing on through "a little bit of low cloud".
The people who hold a current IR and are flying in an IFR equiped aircraft on an instrument flight plans in big expensive helicopters (mostly equiped with autopilots and lots of systems redundancy) are in a different league as far as managing the risk is concerned.
Personally I quite like being alive and freely abandon my little robbo as soon as the sky gets cloudy for a less scary means of transport. Better to be a warm safe coward...
In the UK we lose 1 or 2 helicopters a year through inadvertent VFR to IMC and subsequent LOC. Almost always VFR single engined aircraft with non instrument rated pilots pushing on through "a little bit of low cloud".
The people who hold a current IR and are flying in an IFR equiped aircraft on an instrument flight plans in big expensive helicopters (mostly equiped with autopilots and lots of systems redundancy) are in a different league as far as managing the risk is concerned.
Personally I quite like being alive and freely abandon my little robbo as soon as the sky gets cloudy for a less scary means of transport. Better to be a warm safe coward...
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From: Over here
AFAIK there are few single-engine IFR helicopter operations being done. Legal and sane are not the same. I believe the requirements for autopilots, second generators, etc are for commercial ops, not for Part 91 ops. I do know that the US Army does a lot of actual IFR in 206s at Ft Rucker, the Army Aviation School. Butch Grafton, president of PHPA, is one of the instructors who does this. Of course, this is unregulated by the FAA.
Joined: Jul 1999
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From: UK
[QUOTE=Bravo73]ShyT,
This might be the same R44 that was over the Welsh hills at 3000ft last winter. The cloud layer was from about 500ft agl up to 10000ftish. It was on it's way to Wellesbourne.
QUOTE]
Darwin award material.
This might be the same R44 that was over the Welsh hills at 3000ft last winter. The cloud layer was from about 500ft agl up to 10000ftish. It was on it's way to Wellesbourne.
QUOTE]
Darwin award material.