Dramatic Engine Failures
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Dramatic Engine Failures
As some of you know, I have written a couple of novels and am now working on #3, which has a couple of helicopter-intensive scenes. I'm in the hunt now for the most dramatic instance of engine failure you know of (ideally as result of a hot start) from which the pilot recovered. I'd like to know what the ship did (canted, turned nose up, etc.), what it sounded like (do you just hear air flying by or the blades or what?), felt like, etc., and what the pilot did about it. thanks.
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Can't really help with firsthand experience, but here are a couple of videos of engine failures with audio, so you can get some idea.
http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/N911KH.MPG
http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/mayday.asx
Hope that helps a bit.
http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/N911KH.MPG
http://www.griffin-helicopters.co.uk/videos/mayday.asx
Hope that helps a bit.
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I was a passenger in the back seat of a 206 when the engine quit. PM me and I can give you all the details although, aside from a hard landing which damaged the underbelly (known as the "bathtub"), it wasn't that dramatic.
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I've suffered quite a few of these terrible "hot starts" incidents in my time and thank God, I've survived them all.
During some of them I turned off the booster pump which brought the T4 back within limits. During others, on a different type of helicopter, I switched off the engine, as per the manufacturer's advice, before the T5 limit was exceeded.
Good old Air Traffic Control always helped by saying useful things like "A bit more left rudder, Captain!" and "Hold her steady, Jim!" I said "Thanks, but my name's not Jim!"
Fortunately, the aircraft didn't ever try to send me into oblivion, they just sort of.. er, sat there on the ground.
Strangely, one thing I've never been able to explain: It didn't matter what type of turbine helicopter it was, they all made a noise like a piston engined Bell 47.
P.S. Does that make you want me as the hero of your new book, or just the technical adviser? I usually charge by the hour but I'm pretty cheap. Or, by arrangement, a one off payment in advance will be OK.
During some of them I turned off the booster pump which brought the T4 back within limits. During others, on a different type of helicopter, I switched off the engine, as per the manufacturer's advice, before the T5 limit was exceeded.
Good old Air Traffic Control always helped by saying useful things like "A bit more left rudder, Captain!" and "Hold her steady, Jim!" I said "Thanks, but my name's not Jim!"
Fortunately, the aircraft didn't ever try to send me into oblivion, they just sort of.. er, sat there on the ground.
Strangely, one thing I've never been able to explain: It didn't matter what type of turbine helicopter it was, they all made a noise like a piston engined Bell 47.
P.S. Does that make you want me as the hero of your new book, or just the technical adviser? I usually charge by the hour but I'm pretty cheap. Or, by arrangement, a one off payment in advance will be OK.
Luckily my only catastrophic engine failure was on the ground, just pre-takeoff when winding up to takeoff rpm (in a UH-1).
As a result of (we think) a previous unreported hot start, the retaining disc holding the free turbine (the one you can see when looking into the tailpipe) let go. There was a bang like a loud gunshot, engine out lights came on and the loadmaster reported what looked like leaves flying out of the tailpipe.
These turned out to be the N2 turbine blades departing the engine.
They punched a few holes in the rear of the airframe and tail rotor, a blade of which I've now got hanging on my wall.
I can only guess at what would have happened if it'd been a few minutes later, as the flight was to be a low-level gunnery and rocketry sortie over trees and water during an exercise, 4 pob and heavy. Lucky for us.
In flight, I guess it would have been left yaw, warning lights and audio, 'Oh f*cks', descent into the trees while flaring like buggery to try and get the forward speed off, crunch.
Probably not of much help - hopefully thems that have had them in flight can say how it really goes. Good luck with the book!
As a result of (we think) a previous unreported hot start, the retaining disc holding the free turbine (the one you can see when looking into the tailpipe) let go. There was a bang like a loud gunshot, engine out lights came on and the loadmaster reported what looked like leaves flying out of the tailpipe.
These turned out to be the N2 turbine blades departing the engine.
They punched a few holes in the rear of the airframe and tail rotor, a blade of which I've now got hanging on my wall.
I can only guess at what would have happened if it'd been a few minutes later, as the flight was to be a low-level gunnery and rocketry sortie over trees and water during an exercise, 4 pob and heavy. Lucky for us.
In flight, I guess it would have been left yaw, warning lights and audio, 'Oh f*cks', descent into the trees while flaring like buggery to try and get the forward speed off, crunch.
Probably not of much help - hopefully thems that have had them in flight can say how it really goes. Good luck with the book!
I have had a good one....
On take off from an African seismic camp, at a few feet height, with 4 passengers, right engine of my AS 355 exploded....pieces of exploded turbine went through the firewall and killed the other engine.... The take-off path was towards a lake, near JETA fuel storage bladders and closed to other parked helicopters.
I just heard an unsual "pouf" and realised I was going down, I only tried to cushion the forced landing, but without engine at all, RPM decreasing quickly, I lost yaw efficiency, nose went right and pitched down....A tough landing resulted with a broken right skid. Before we could do anything ( rotor brake requiring the 2 FFCL fully back, to be pulled ) one of the panicking passenger, went out and ran upslope, just to be stopped by witnesses warnings, a few inches before the still spinning blades at his head level !
Because auto reignition a fire initiated trough torn engines and cowlings...!
On take off from an African seismic camp, at a few feet height, with 4 passengers, right engine of my AS 355 exploded....pieces of exploded turbine went through the firewall and killed the other engine.... The take-off path was towards a lake, near JETA fuel storage bladders and closed to other parked helicopters.
I just heard an unsual "pouf" and realised I was going down, I only tried to cushion the forced landing, but without engine at all, RPM decreasing quickly, I lost yaw efficiency, nose went right and pitched down....A tough landing resulted with a broken right skid. Before we could do anything ( rotor brake requiring the 2 FFCL fully back, to be pulled ) one of the panicking passenger, went out and ran upslope, just to be stopped by witnesses warnings, a few inches before the still spinning blades at his head level !
Because auto reignition a fire initiated trough torn engines and cowlings...!
Dramatic enough ?
Because we had others S355 available, all of us boarded another one, right away, not yet realising, as if nothing ever had happened.
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My dad was a CFII in the USA and in Oz.
I know of a story where he had an engine failure in California and commenced an Autorotation, thing is the student locked up and refused to let go of the controls so Dad persuaded him to let go ( I think that was by way of a gentle tap ) ...anyway he landed it with the student still trying to maintain control and he ended up getting it on the cliff edge...the helo I think was a H269 and ended up sliding off the cliff edge but hung on by a skid.
Both pilots climbed out and I think Dad had a few bevvys that night.
Not sure if the student flew again but Dad sure did.
This was in the early 80's I around 79 to 81 from memory ... I was but a wee tacker but the story remains.
It was in the paper and I think my Mom still has the newspaper clipping.
I could get more info if need be.
HF
I know of a story where he had an engine failure in California and commenced an Autorotation, thing is the student locked up and refused to let go of the controls so Dad persuaded him to let go ( I think that was by way of a gentle tap ) ...anyway he landed it with the student still trying to maintain control and he ended up getting it on the cliff edge...the helo I think was a H269 and ended up sliding off the cliff edge but hung on by a skid.
Both pilots climbed out and I think Dad had a few bevvys that night.
Not sure if the student flew again but Dad sure did.
This was in the early 80's I around 79 to 81 from memory ... I was but a wee tacker but the story remains.
It was in the paper and I think my Mom still has the newspaper clipping.
I could get more info if need be.
HF
I don't think I would have said it that way!
I just heard an unsual "pouf" and realised I was going down,
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SASless, old chap - with a warped sense of humour like that I can only conclude that you have spent FAR too much time in UK 
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Re: Shytorque:
If the first two books serve as any precedent, the publisher will spring for a consultant. I have friends whose bar tab the fee wouldn't cover. I'm not sure what that says re: my friends or my publisher.
I'd be much obliged if you could, briefly, take me through the steps you'd take to avoid a hot start.
I'd be much obliged if you could, briefly, take me through the steps you'd take to avoid a hot start.
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Many years ago flying a RN Seaking Mk5..Just taken off from Culdrose and while at 500ft agl at night and pulling to twin engine max-con power (111% twin torque from memory and as per SOP at that time)..Number 2 engine exploded!!! Rapid Nr decay due to high power at time of failure, number 2 engine also on fire by now and by the time we sorted our act out and got safe I remember the wardroom roof looking very close indeed!!! Won't bore you with the cause of failure (same thing happened to a Noggy Sea King years earlier which took out the other engine, so I was just lucky that night)..Not a hot start I'm afraid, but needed a new flight suit in the morning!!!
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shytorque,
"but I'm pretty cheap"
i would say you can't talk, i would never have imaged??
tim tucker relays a good one, back in his service days, leading a flight of five or so 206's, half with military radio only the other half with civvy only, him with both. Like perfect lemmings they were following him all the way down near LAX somewhwere after his fire went out and by the time he was done declaring emergency, i think on a anothe freq, switching radios and telling em all to piss off the whole lot was nearly done. Someone should ask him.
disintergrated damper clamps comes close the the, "lots of excitement for a short time criteria", so does free wheel failure in a 47 with the old father in law on board from downwind at 70' (the engine goes straight to valve bounce speed, f'n frightening), then spitting a T/R short shaft at 60' still with coll very much up- yeah second time round the old head says do it now son or perish-R22 - drive belts, lower bearings and 47 valves, cyl head bolts letting go fuel pump ruptures, magneto idlershaft dropping off etc etc all good times. i've forgotten how many.
I probably wouldn't be so "shy" about a price?
"but I'm pretty cheap"
i would say you can't talk, i would never have imaged??
tim tucker relays a good one, back in his service days, leading a flight of five or so 206's, half with military radio only the other half with civvy only, him with both. Like perfect lemmings they were following him all the way down near LAX somewhwere after his fire went out and by the time he was done declaring emergency, i think on a anothe freq, switching radios and telling em all to piss off the whole lot was nearly done. Someone should ask him.
disintergrated damper clamps comes close the the, "lots of excitement for a short time criteria", so does free wheel failure in a 47 with the old father in law on board from downwind at 70' (the engine goes straight to valve bounce speed, f'n frightening), then spitting a T/R short shaft at 60' still with coll very much up- yeah second time round the old head says do it now son or perish-R22 - drive belts, lower bearings and 47 valves, cyl head bolts letting go fuel pump ruptures, magneto idlershaft dropping off etc etc all good times. i've forgotten how many.
I probably wouldn't be so "shy" about a price?
Hi, good old SASless,
I was sure this "pouf" will draw some comments ! but it is exactly what this poor dying Allisons sisters said as their agonising last word ! at least what I heard...maybe, when I try to remember, with a longer sound decreasing f....like "poufffffff"...then came the decreasing "flap flap flap" of the main blades, followed by the "bong-bang-bong-clang" of the bouncing landing with the skid break-down.
It's useless to tell here what I myself said, but it's more or less what everybody uses to say in these kind of circumstance.
I was sure this "pouf" will draw some comments ! but it is exactly what this poor dying Allisons sisters said as their agonising last word ! at least what I heard...maybe, when I try to remember, with a longer sound decreasing f....like "poufffffff"...then came the decreasing "flap flap flap" of the main blades, followed by the "bong-bang-bong-clang" of the bouncing landing with the skid break-down.
It's useless to tell here what I myself said, but it's more or less what everybody uses to say in these kind of circumstance.
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Lost #4 bearing cluster on a T53....
Staging out of a PSP strip at Ca Mau. Hueys, 3 Vs of 5, I was gold 3, Peter Pilot's turn driving and we were straight and level at 80K and about 1500' with a VN mortar squad of 8-10 pax. Departure strip in sight, mile or so away.
Aircraft gave a "Pop" noise, yawed, RPM Warning started going... I took the aircraft, engine RPM needle at 0, but Rotor RPM in green and engine sounds were sweet. EGT was going to high end of green, made the call to trail that I had a problem, lowered collective to drop from the formation, got the PP to kill the RPM warning beedle, figured I had a chance to fly it back. EGT came down some, so raised nose to 60 knots and began a slow turn back to the strip, pulling enough power to slow the rate of descent and keep the EGT green.
Eveything cool but by the time I figure out we could make it back, not enough time to clear the sticks of waiting troopies off the grass. Nursed her back and did a run on the way I knew the planks were laid so's not to rip the skid shoes.
Altitude and airspeed, rate of descent worked out to about the first third of the strip before we touched down, and held what I had, keeping light as possible and stopped at about the two thirds mark down the strip. Black hats had cleared me in, and after we'd touched down, but were still sliding down the strip, the pax mostly bailed -- might have had one or two left when we stopped.
Maint. guy came over and told me he needed to move the aircraft for resupply, and proceeded to try to start it. Sparks from the tail were interesting -- seems she wanted to hot start, so he shut it down, pissed at me cause I was blocking the runway and he didn't have ground handling wheels....
Figured I might yet catch more hell for blocking the runway. The spare bird driver wanted me to take his aircraft and rejoin the flight, which I declined, citing pending deep breathing, debriefing and declenching maneuvers...
In about an hour, a chinook was hauling the crew and aircraft and I back to Soc Trang, and after doing the stuff at Operations, I further debriefed at the club. When the rest of the flight rejoined on me at the club, they were yukking it up about how calm my call to Trail was about "my little problem" with the deedling RPM warning as background on the radio.
Got a 13 Bn "Broken Wing" award for a successful save. Surprised me ! Felt goofy about the whole thing afterwards can't recall hearing about anything like it happening -- no SOP, as far as I know. Not sure if I should have kept on driving with the flight and the spare, or if what I did was appropriate.
Engine oil hose to #4 or 5 bearing cluster had sprung a leak, taking out the N1 tach and oil was all over the engine housing and the inside of the open door on that side. Engine oil remaining was a little on the low and hot side.
Aircraft gave a "Pop" noise, yawed, RPM Warning started going... I took the aircraft, engine RPM needle at 0, but Rotor RPM in green and engine sounds were sweet. EGT was going to high end of green, made the call to trail that I had a problem, lowered collective to drop from the formation, got the PP to kill the RPM warning beedle, figured I had a chance to fly it back. EGT came down some, so raised nose to 60 knots and began a slow turn back to the strip, pulling enough power to slow the rate of descent and keep the EGT green.
Eveything cool but by the time I figure out we could make it back, not enough time to clear the sticks of waiting troopies off the grass. Nursed her back and did a run on the way I knew the planks were laid so's not to rip the skid shoes.
Altitude and airspeed, rate of descent worked out to about the first third of the strip before we touched down, and held what I had, keeping light as possible and stopped at about the two thirds mark down the strip. Black hats had cleared me in, and after we'd touched down, but were still sliding down the strip, the pax mostly bailed -- might have had one or two left when we stopped.
Maint. guy came over and told me he needed to move the aircraft for resupply, and proceeded to try to start it. Sparks from the tail were interesting -- seems she wanted to hot start, so he shut it down, pissed at me cause I was blocking the runway and he didn't have ground handling wheels....
Figured I might yet catch more hell for blocking the runway. The spare bird driver wanted me to take his aircraft and rejoin the flight, which I declined, citing pending deep breathing, debriefing and declenching maneuvers...
In about an hour, a chinook was hauling the crew and aircraft and I back to Soc Trang, and after doing the stuff at Operations, I further debriefed at the club. When the rest of the flight rejoined on me at the club, they were yukking it up about how calm my call to Trail was about "my little problem" with the deedling RPM warning as background on the radio.
Got a 13 Bn "Broken Wing" award for a successful save. Surprised me ! Felt goofy about the whole thing afterwards can't recall hearing about anything like it happening -- no SOP, as far as I know. Not sure if I should have kept on driving with the flight and the spare, or if what I did was appropriate.
Engine oil hose to #4 or 5 bearing cluster had sprung a leak, taking out the N1 tach and oil was all over the engine housing and the inside of the open door on that side. Engine oil remaining was a little on the low and hot side.
Last edited by 2000hrsinVN; 14th Jun 2006 at 09:20.
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Originally Posted by gusopenshaw
If the first two books serve as any precedent, the publisher will spring for a consultant. I have friends whose bar tab the fee wouldn't cover. I'm not sure what that says re: my friends or my publisher.
I'd be much obliged if you could, briefly, take me through the steps you'd take to avoid a hot start.
I'd be much obliged if you could, briefly, take me through the steps you'd take to avoid a hot start.
A hot start is a situation where the engine internal temperature increases too high, or is tending to increase too quickly during start up on the ground, so the pilot should abort the start sequence.
Engine failure in flight yes, very dramatic on a single, or if one lets go with a bang as pieces of hot metal can exit the engine case and cause other damage, read everyone else's accounts.
Perhaps you have missed the points of irony in my previous post? I was joking about consultancy fee, btw
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Shytorque
"Perhaps you have missed the points of irony in my previous post? I was joking about consultancy fee, btw"
Naturally, Mademoiselle, I am sure that no-one especially me would have imaged anything else!
Naturally, Mademoiselle, I am sure that no-one especially me would have imaged anything else!
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Shytorque,
Now you have ruined it! I was so looking forward to another good ‘hot start’ novel.
They also make such good movies after a Hollywood (or even Bollywood) screenplay writer gets hold of it. I love those fade back, slow motion, sequences of the rapidly rising TOT needle. The part where the flames belch out of the jet pipe can be turned into a tremendous special effects sequence. ‘Hot Start’ movies keep me awake at night and give me cold shivers. And as you mentioned earlier the Oscar nomination for the Sound Editor with his Bell 47 sound effects leaves me in tears.
SH
Now you have ruined it! I was so looking forward to another good ‘hot start’ novel.
They also make such good movies after a Hollywood (or even Bollywood) screenplay writer gets hold of it. I love those fade back, slow motion, sequences of the rapidly rising TOT needle. The part where the flames belch out of the jet pipe can be turned into a tremendous special effects sequence. ‘Hot Start’ movies keep me awake at night and give me cold shivers. And as you mentioned earlier the Oscar nomination for the Sound Editor with his Bell 47 sound effects leaves me in tears.
SH
