Leaving helicopter with engine/rotors running - merged threads
The nice old OH-23D for me, Class 67-3.
Don't forget we were either solo or with our stick buddy.
No innocent passengers nearby to pay for our mistakes.
Many years ago a crew picked up a brand new 206(L?) at the Bell factory.
On the way back to their company (west coast?) they flew past Pikes Peak and stopped at the peak to take a few photos.
Both wanted to be in the photos and not wanting to shut down due to the altitude they frictioned everything and got out.
The camera was set up to take several photos, which it did.
The photos showed how the two crew watched the new 206 slide off the mountain into the valley below!
Must have been interesting talking to the owners, etc.
I wonder what story they had to tell
Don't forget we were either solo or with our stick buddy.
No innocent passengers nearby to pay for our mistakes.
Many years ago a crew picked up a brand new 206(L?) at the Bell factory.
On the way back to their company (west coast?) they flew past Pikes Peak and stopped at the peak to take a few photos.
Both wanted to be in the photos and not wanting to shut down due to the altitude they frictioned everything and got out.
The camera was set up to take several photos, which it did.
The photos showed how the two crew watched the new 206 slide off the mountain into the valley below!
Must have been interesting talking to the owners, etc.
I wonder what story they had to tell
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...06X00631&key=1
Its been a long time but I don't think so.
I remember photos being passed around showing the two very surprised crew members at first not aware what was happening behind them. Once the noise started they turned around and watched!
Photos being automatically taken all the time.
I remember photos being passed around showing the two very surprised crew members at first not aware what was happening behind them. Once the noise started they turned around and watched!
Photos being automatically taken all the time.
It's funny how this debate surfaces periodically. And how there are two distinct viewpoints on it. And how these threads drone on and on and on as we rehash the same old issues...
Is getting out while running safe? Of course it is. It's certainly not any more dangerous than anything else we do with helicopters. Helicopters don't spontaneously blow up or catch fire. It's safe as long as the proper procedures are followed. And aren't we pilots procedure-driven types of guys? Can't we be trusted to carry out basic aviation-type procedures? Well of course we can. Same with getting out while running.
We always hear about the very few times it went wrong: A 407 pilot getting whacked in the noggin by his own helicopter; a bird falling off Pike's Peak. What we *don't* hear about are all the times pilots got out successfully and nothing happened. Anecdotally, it appears that this practice is far more widespread than some imagine.
In my former life, flying a 206 around for a rich guy, all we did was go into off-airport sites. So to ensure everyone's safety, I'd get out and help them with the doors, belts, their bags... It's amazing that you can show people how to work the very simple 206 baggage compartment latches but they turn into blithering idiots when confronted by the incomprehensible devices at the end of the flight.
And don't give me this rot about, "Just shut down!" Hey, you just shut up! My RR-250 requires a 2-minute cooldown. My very important, impatient boss and his very important, impatient pax are *not* going to sit there like idiots with their thumbs up their bums for two minutes while I cool down and stop the rotor. They have very important things to do, man! So let's just be real.
Now, properly frictioned, the 206 controls don't move; the unboosted pedals don't move. At ground idle, if I yank up on the collective, the rotor rpm goes, "BLEEEEAAAAHHHHH" and slows down even further. This is also the case in every other helicopter I've flown. They don't take off at idle. But I haven't flown the AS-350. What's up with that ship?
People have written here that a 350 will fly away at ground idle if the collective "pops up" which I guess it's prone to do?? Why is this? Does the collective move on its own? If you're doing a power-on, flat-pitch approach and take your hand off the collective to scratch your nose/ass, will the collective come up? Once landed, are pilots not setting the proper ground idle rpm? Does the collective not have a friction lock in addition to the down-lock? That would seem odd. What kind of piece of junk helicopter is the 350, anyway? Controls can't be frictioned...controls move on their own?!
So how did that guy in the Grand Canyon's Astar lift off and roll over on him while he was doing that "fluid level check - human fluid depletion procedure?"
Now, after all of the smart-assedness above I will say one thing: Once I saw an ag-pilot standing outside of a Hiller 12E. He was doing...something...I couldn't tell what (not peeing - he was tinkering with the spray gear). What I *could* tell, was that the 12E was up at operating rpm - 2700 or 3200 -way up there. Definitely not idle. I got in my car and drove away as fast as I could. Nothing happened in that case (I saw the ship flying later), but it occurs to me that we have some pretty stupid helicopter pilots out there.
Is getting out while running safe? Of course it is. It's certainly not any more dangerous than anything else we do with helicopters. Helicopters don't spontaneously blow up or catch fire. It's safe as long as the proper procedures are followed. And aren't we pilots procedure-driven types of guys? Can't we be trusted to carry out basic aviation-type procedures? Well of course we can. Same with getting out while running.
We always hear about the very few times it went wrong: A 407 pilot getting whacked in the noggin by his own helicopter; a bird falling off Pike's Peak. What we *don't* hear about are all the times pilots got out successfully and nothing happened. Anecdotally, it appears that this practice is far more widespread than some imagine.
In my former life, flying a 206 around for a rich guy, all we did was go into off-airport sites. So to ensure everyone's safety, I'd get out and help them with the doors, belts, their bags... It's amazing that you can show people how to work the very simple 206 baggage compartment latches but they turn into blithering idiots when confronted by the incomprehensible devices at the end of the flight.
And don't give me this rot about, "Just shut down!" Hey, you just shut up! My RR-250 requires a 2-minute cooldown. My very important, impatient boss and his very important, impatient pax are *not* going to sit there like idiots with their thumbs up their bums for two minutes while I cool down and stop the rotor. They have very important things to do, man! So let's just be real.
Now, properly frictioned, the 206 controls don't move; the unboosted pedals don't move. At ground idle, if I yank up on the collective, the rotor rpm goes, "BLEEEEAAAAHHHHH" and slows down even further. This is also the case in every other helicopter I've flown. They don't take off at idle. But I haven't flown the AS-350. What's up with that ship?
People have written here that a 350 will fly away at ground idle if the collective "pops up" which I guess it's prone to do?? Why is this? Does the collective move on its own? If you're doing a power-on, flat-pitch approach and take your hand off the collective to scratch your nose/ass, will the collective come up? Once landed, are pilots not setting the proper ground idle rpm? Does the collective not have a friction lock in addition to the down-lock? That would seem odd. What kind of piece of junk helicopter is the 350, anyway? Controls can't be frictioned...controls move on their own?!
So how did that guy in the Grand Canyon's Astar lift off and roll over on him while he was doing that "fluid level check - human fluid depletion procedure?"
Now, after all of the smart-assedness above I will say one thing: Once I saw an ag-pilot standing outside of a Hiller 12E. He was doing...something...I couldn't tell what (not peeing - he was tinkering with the spray gear). What I *could* tell, was that the 12E was up at operating rpm - 2700 or 3200 -way up there. Definitely not idle. I got in my car and drove away as fast as I could. Nothing happened in that case (I saw the ship flying later), but it occurs to me that we have some pretty stupid helicopter pilots out there.
Is this the one, is so they told quite a tale.
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...06X00631&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.av...06X00631&key=1
THE PILOT MADE A LOW PASS OVER PIKES PEAK (14,110 FEET MSL) TO ALLOW HIS PASSENGER TO TAKE SOME PHOTOGRAPHS AND FOR HIM TO CHECK THE WIND CONDITIONS. HE FIRST MADE A LEFT 360 DEGREE CIRCULAR PASS, THEN SET UP A LOW APPROACH INTO THE WIND AND BEGAN A SLOW DESCENT. THE PILOT SAID THAT AT AN ALTITUDE OF ABOUT 40 TO 60 FEET ABOVE THE TERRAIN, HE 'LOST CONTROL IN THE YAW AXIS ONLY,' AND THE HELICOPTER MADE TWO OR THREE ROTATIONS BEFORE STRIKING THE GROUND AND ROLLING OVER.
Sounds like the Achilles Heel of a Jet Ranger....called LTE but actually too little Tail Rotor Thrust to counteract Torque when the DA gets high.
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Spot on FH1100,
This happens thousands of times every day in the utility industry us. In the utility world. These ships are operated for 8+/- hours a day and typically only have two starts a day (sometimes they shut down for lunch). They typically fuel 5-10 times each day and get out for a bio break on about half of those fuel stops. multiply that 3-4 times each day by about 1000 aircraft and you will see it happens all of the time.
Many pointed out some good tips.
Typically, in the utility industry you are in a field with no other persons around. Typically the pilot never gets more than 10m away form the aircraft.
Ground Idle, Frictions on.
Wheeled aircraft?! not used in the utility industry.
I would never do it in high winds, or on a uneven or slippery surface.
Sure there is risk to it, but certainly not anymore than pulling pitch on any given day.
This happens thousands of times every day in the utility industry us. In the utility world. These ships are operated for 8+/- hours a day and typically only have two starts a day (sometimes they shut down for lunch). They typically fuel 5-10 times each day and get out for a bio break on about half of those fuel stops. multiply that 3-4 times each day by about 1000 aircraft and you will see it happens all of the time.
Many pointed out some good tips.
Typically, in the utility industry you are in a field with no other persons around. Typically the pilot never gets more than 10m away form the aircraft.
Ground Idle, Frictions on.
Wheeled aircraft?! not used in the utility industry.
I would never do it in high winds, or on a uneven or slippery surface.
Sure there is risk to it, but certainly not anymore than pulling pitch on any given day.
The pilot's shoulder harness straps were visible over his shoulders. The pilot glanced downward, a reflection consistent with the pilot removing his shoulder harness was visible in the airspeed gauge.
At 15:57:12.26, the red colored "TWT GRIP" light (Twist Grip Light) illuminated on the annunciator panel. Engine audio was consistent with the reduction of N1 toward ground idle.
The pilot reached for the 30 Alpha Panel with his right hand, and switched the HORN switch "Off". The pilot moved his head out of the line of sight of the camera, and the amber colored "HORN" light was illuminated on the annunciator panel. Turbine Output Temperature (TOT) on the VEMD showed a drop along with the Rotor Speed (Nr) gauge consistent with a selection of ground idle.
At 15:57:13, the Engine Data Recorder for collective position showed a slight increase indicating the collective handle had become unlocked.
The red colored trim yarn was observed outside the windscreen center post at the 3 o'clock position and buffeting indicating a crosswind from the left. This was observed for the duration of the recording.
At 15:57:18.01, the red colored "TWT GRIP" light extinguished on the annunciator panel. Engine audio was consistent with an increase and acceleration of N1 toward flight idle. The TOT indication on the VEMD gauge began to trend up along with the free turbine speed N2/Nr gauge. Engine oil pressure began to climb slightly.
The pilot reached for the 30 Alpha Panel with his right hand, and switched the HORN switch "On". The annunciator panel came into view. No lights were illuminated on the panel.
The pilot reached for and removed his headset. The pilot placed foam earplugs in his ears. The pilot moved his head, and looked down and to the left while he moved his body slightly to the right. A sound similar to a door latch operating and an increase in ambient rotorcraft noise was heard.
At 15:57:33.76, the pilot began to exit the camera's field of view to the left of the rotorcraft.
At 15:57:12.26, the red colored "TWT GRIP" light (Twist Grip Light) illuminated on the annunciator panel. Engine audio was consistent with the reduction of N1 toward ground idle.
The pilot reached for the 30 Alpha Panel with his right hand, and switched the HORN switch "Off". The pilot moved his head out of the line of sight of the camera, and the amber colored "HORN" light was illuminated on the annunciator panel. Turbine Output Temperature (TOT) on the VEMD showed a drop along with the Rotor Speed (Nr) gauge consistent with a selection of ground idle.
At 15:57:13, the Engine Data Recorder for collective position showed a slight increase indicating the collective handle had become unlocked.
The red colored trim yarn was observed outside the windscreen center post at the 3 o'clock position and buffeting indicating a crosswind from the left. This was observed for the duration of the recording.
At 15:57:18.01, the red colored "TWT GRIP" light extinguished on the annunciator panel. Engine audio was consistent with an increase and acceleration of N1 toward flight idle. The TOT indication on the VEMD gauge began to trend up along with the free turbine speed N2/Nr gauge. Engine oil pressure began to climb slightly.
The pilot reached for the 30 Alpha Panel with his right hand, and switched the HORN switch "On". The annunciator panel came into view. No lights were illuminated on the panel.
The pilot reached for and removed his headset. The pilot placed foam earplugs in his ears. The pilot moved his head, and looked down and to the left while he moved his body slightly to the right. A sound similar to a door latch operating and an increase in ambient rotorcraft noise was heard.
At 15:57:33.76, the pilot began to exit the camera's field of view to the left of the rotorcraft.
I wonder why this practice had become common among some of the Papillon pilots. If the procedures explicitly prohibit this, why not have a proper shut-down at base when the bladder tank is at max? A healthy 26 yo shouldn't have to do this more than once or twice during a regular work day. And it could easily be justified towards management if it ever raised questions.
"I've always wondered if he got his Darwin Award... that year 10% of all NZ's civvy registered helicopters came to grief."
That would be about 80 helicopters... nearly seven a month... sounds a bit high, ShyTorque?
That would be about 80 helicopters... nearly seven a month... sounds a bit high, ShyTorque?
Krypton John, I cannot find the post you are referring to, but I remember hearing the average lifespan of a helicopter in New Zealand during the time deer recovery was in full flight, was 3 years.
Naturally not all machines were written off in a three year period, some had a very short life span. However the turnover was high. 33% per year, which easily eclipses 10%.
The earning potential was so high the cost of replacement was not a problem. Remember we're talking turbine machines here in the main, usually H369's
There is probably many more helicopter in NZ today.
Naturally not all machines were written off in a three year period, some had a very short life span. However the turnover was high. 33% per year, which easily eclipses 10%.
The earning potential was so high the cost of replacement was not a problem. Remember we're talking turbine machines here in the main, usually H369's
There is probably many more helicopter in NZ today.
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the life span of deer recovery machines may have been 33%, however not all machines were deer recovery, so loss rate would have been lower.
The 10% was talked about in the mid 90's. serious deer recovery was a distant memory by then, with most full time deer operators moving up from D's and E's all the way to 300's and 22's, such was the economics of it by then.
Also in the 90's we had between 3-500 helicopters, not the 850 odd that we now have, so 10% would have been 30-50, i guess that is possible.
The 10% was talked about in the mid 90's. serious deer recovery was a distant memory by then, with most full time deer operators moving up from D's and E's all the way to 300's and 22's, such was the economics of it by then.
Also in the 90's we had between 3-500 helicopters, not the 850 odd that we now have, so 10% would have been 30-50, i guess that is possible.
Regarding the Astar accident in the Grand Canyon...
First we have to define some terms. The NTSB report uses the terms "flight idle" and "ground idle." This can be confusing to some, especially pilots with primarily piston experience. But also because (in the 206 community at least) the terms are sometimes used interchangeably.
However in this context, "flight idle" refers to throttle fully open and collective all the way down. Ground idle means throttle reduced to an "idle" position, with the N2 below the governed range. A helicopter at "ground idle" cannot fly. A helicopter at "flight idle" is ready to fly away if the collective rises. Which it tragically did in this case.
The NTSB report is chilling. The kid (he was 26 years old - I've got socks older than that) was apparently trying to get back in the ship as it was falling over. Very sad. But what the report also reveals to us is very disturbing. It appears that Papillon's policy was to always leave their throttles fully open...always.
Other Papillon pilots admitted to doing the (ahem) "fluid level check" which we all understand is code for "I gotta get out and take a leak." But the older, wiser pilots said they always performed said procedure at GROUND idle, which just makes sense.
The young pilot in question, perhaps not as experienced in the ways of the world as we would wish, went strictly by the Papillon Ops Manual and unbelievably did his "fluid level checks" at full throttle. Why ANYBODY would get out of a helicopter at full throttle is just completely baffling. Why would you *do* that? Oh, right, because the Ops Manual says to. (I can't believe they do all of their loading and unloading at 100%, but I guess they do.)
Again, I'm not familiar with the AS-350. And I do not know why the Astar's control system is apparently designed so that the collective can creep up - or in any direction, actually. Forget about locking it completely down - if there is not a device that adds enough "general" friction to keep it from moving unintentionally (like, forgive me, the 206) if you take your hand off it, then IN MY OPINION the design is defective. And that design defect resulted in the death of that unfortunate Papillon pilot.
Getting out of a running helicopter that's at its full operating rpm is just dumb. I can't believe young pilots would not be aware of the hazards of doing such a thing. Sadly, the poor Papillon pilot paid for that mistake with his life.
First we have to define some terms. The NTSB report uses the terms "flight idle" and "ground idle." This can be confusing to some, especially pilots with primarily piston experience. But also because (in the 206 community at least) the terms are sometimes used interchangeably.
However in this context, "flight idle" refers to throttle fully open and collective all the way down. Ground idle means throttle reduced to an "idle" position, with the N2 below the governed range. A helicopter at "ground idle" cannot fly. A helicopter at "flight idle" is ready to fly away if the collective rises. Which it tragically did in this case.
The NTSB report is chilling. The kid (he was 26 years old - I've got socks older than that) was apparently trying to get back in the ship as it was falling over. Very sad. But what the report also reveals to us is very disturbing. It appears that Papillon's policy was to always leave their throttles fully open...always.
Other Papillon pilots admitted to doing the (ahem) "fluid level check" which we all understand is code for "I gotta get out and take a leak." But the older, wiser pilots said they always performed said procedure at GROUND idle, which just makes sense.
The young pilot in question, perhaps not as experienced in the ways of the world as we would wish, went strictly by the Papillon Ops Manual and unbelievably did his "fluid level checks" at full throttle. Why ANYBODY would get out of a helicopter at full throttle is just completely baffling. Why would you *do* that? Oh, right, because the Ops Manual says to. (I can't believe they do all of their loading and unloading at 100%, but I guess they do.)
Again, I'm not familiar with the AS-350. And I do not know why the Astar's control system is apparently designed so that the collective can creep up - or in any direction, actually. Forget about locking it completely down - if there is not a device that adds enough "general" friction to keep it from moving unintentionally (like, forgive me, the 206) if you take your hand off it, then IN MY OPINION the design is defective. And that design defect resulted in the death of that unfortunate Papillon pilot.
Getting out of a running helicopter that's at its full operating rpm is just dumb. I can't believe young pilots would not be aware of the hazards of doing such a thing. Sadly, the poor Papillon pilot paid for that mistake with his life.
Again, I'm not familiar with the AS-350. And I do not know why the Astar's control system is apparently designed so that the collective can creep up - or in any direction, actually. Forget about locking it completely down - if there is not a device that adds enough "general" friction to keep it from moving unintentionally (like, forgive me, the 206) if you take your hand off it, then IN MY OPINION the design is defective.
Too bad that the policy revolved around the flawed understanding of "low flow" issues with the engine as pointed out in the report.
27/09 - don't disagree with you, but the bad old days of deer recovery are a long time ago. But I believe ShyTorque mentioned 10 years ago - no deer recovery happening then.
SuperF - I can't find ShyTorque's post but I think he said 10 years or a decade ago - so mid 2000's... probably not such a big difference in fleet size to now?
SuperF - I can't find ShyTorque's post but I think he said 10 years or a decade ago - so mid 2000's... probably not such a big difference in fleet size to now?
27/09 - don't disagree with you, but the bad old days of deer recovery are a long time ago. But I believe ShyTorque mentioned 10 years ago - no deer recovery happening then.
SuperF - I can't find ShyTorque's post but I think he said 10 years or a decade ago - so mid 2000's... probably not such a big difference in fleet size to now?
SuperF - I can't find ShyTorque's post but I think he said 10 years or a decade ago - so mid 2000's... probably not such a big difference in fleet size to now?
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AS350 engines, at least in the B & BA, went through a period where coking bearings was a concern with some engine oils. I was instructed to bring NR up to flight every 5 minutes of ground idle and run for half a minute or so. I've not heard of this issue in the last decade or so.
The collective will rise because the Starflex and controls are set/preloaded for a theoretical 50 knot cruise. Collective settings above or below this will be trying to return to this middle collective situation, the hydraulics maintain your commanded setting. The collective lock provides a positive lock to keep vibration and feed back from allowing this movement. Training is that once you have the collective full down, slide your hand up and engage the collective lock, unless you intend to fly away.
The collective will rise because the Starflex and controls are set/preloaded for a theoretical 50 knot cruise. Collective settings above or below this will be trying to return to this middle collective situation, the hydraulics maintain your commanded setting. The collective lock provides a positive lock to keep vibration and feed back from allowing this movement. Training is that once you have the collective full down, slide your hand up and engage the collective lock, unless you intend to fly away.
Thank you, you handsome Devil 49. That makes perfect sense. I appreciate you explaining it.
But still...knowing this... one wonders why the Grand Canyon pilot did not avail himself of the ability to tighten up the collective friction IN ADDITION to engaging the down-lock, which obviously had come undone. I don't know... It's just... I mean, if you're going to get out of your running helicopter, especially at 100% NR, wouldn't you want to make damn sure the controls couldn't move? Just how badly did this kid have to pee?
But still...knowing this... one wonders why the Grand Canyon pilot did not avail himself of the ability to tighten up the collective friction IN ADDITION to engaging the down-lock, which obviously had come undone. I don't know... It's just... I mean, if you're going to get out of your running helicopter, especially at 100% NR, wouldn't you want to make damn sure the controls couldn't move? Just how badly did this kid have to pee?
I have done some genuinely silly things in my life...and some incredibly stupid things...and even things that totally defy comprehension....but leaving a Helicopter running at Full Chat unattended...is not among any of them.
corrected
Oooow those of little knowledge........................are bloody dangerous 
Exiting whilst turning & burning is an approved SOP in the Ops Man in many Countries, including the extended Himalayas. It reduces time on the ground
Increases the urgency to GO for those on-ground 
Did You notice the weather coming in on the Video? Doooh by the way that is not Mera but Khote village H 
Have You CA2 ever tried starting a machine above 20,000' &/or below zero with any serious altitude?
CA2 I sure as shiiit wouldn't wanna be learning from You as my instructor as there ain't much in your 'bag of wisdom' 
next time You land on a remote pinnacle with weather rolling in & a MedEvac Rescue to do; by all means shut down, light up a fag, order a cuppa tea & see the beauty of the clouds roll in as Your Patient dies gagging, drowning in their own blood from Altitude-Sickness 
CA2 please try & think outside the box Mate & find out the right reasons things are being done the way they are........after over 29 years of flying, 10 years in the Mountains; exiting whilst Rotors-Running well over 6,000 times has served me a great benefit in getting the job done safely & expeditiously
(note: without incident, not once)
If the correct procedure is applied, this operation is SAFE
1. after landing still at flight idle, prove the round is stable, giving the Cyclic & Pedals a good stir & dance
2. throttle to ground idle, collective locked, frictions on, hydraulics off (350 series)
3. get out, close Your door, do the job fast & fly away
Happy Landings & never loose ETL unless Your slinging, aerial working, or on short final to land
Exiting whilst turning & burning is an approved SOP in the Ops Man in many Countries, including the extended Himalayas. It reduces time on the ground
Increases the urgency to GO for those on-ground Did You notice the weather coming in on the Video? Doooh by the way that is not Mera but Khote village H Have You CA2 ever tried starting a machine above 20,000' &/or below zero with any serious altitude?
CA2 I sure as shiiit wouldn't wanna be learning from You as my instructor as there ain't much in your 'bag of wisdom' next time You land on a remote pinnacle with weather rolling in & a MedEvac Rescue to do; by all means shut down, light up a fag, order a cuppa tea & see the beauty of the clouds roll in as Your Patient dies gagging, drowning in their own blood from Altitude-Sickness CA2 please try & think outside the box Mate & find out the right reasons things are being done the way they are........after over 29 years of flying, 10 years in the Mountains; exiting whilst Rotors-Running well over 6,000 times has served me a great benefit in getting the job done safely & expeditiously
(note: without incident, not once)If the correct procedure is applied, this operation is SAFE
1. after landing still at flight idle, prove the round is stable, giving the Cyclic & Pedals a good stir & dance
2. throttle to ground idle, collective locked, frictions on, hydraulics off (350 series)
3. get out, close Your door, do the job fast & fly away
Happy Landings & never loose ETL unless Your slinging, aerial working, or on short final to land