SAR: Search & Rescue Ops [Archive Copy]
Join Date: Dec 2001
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STANDTO
I don't see any case at all to interfer with what the RNLI do. They run a fantastically successful organisation and should be left to do exactly as they think fit.
What falls right into place is government funded air support service operating in conjuction with a charitably funded life boat service.
I don't see any case at all to interfer with what the RNLI do. They run a fantastically successful organisation and should be left to do exactly as they think fit.
What falls right into place is government funded air support service operating in conjuction with a charitably funded life boat service.
The likely scenario would be:
The chopper crew has a go at rescuing this idiot.
Circumstances get out of control, chopper has accident.
Idiot victim walks out.
The victims are probably only Poms anyway, but when you weigh up the risks and the potential for more needless deaths, perhaps you should leave them there.
The chopper crew has a go at rescuing this idiot.
Circumstances get out of control, chopper has accident.
Idiot victim walks out.
The victims are probably only Poms anyway, but when you weigh up the risks and the potential for more needless deaths, perhaps you should leave them there.
Standto, that tragic incident just goes to prove that people can be stupid enough to get themselves into situations that they can't be rescued from - in this case it wasn't the lack of equipment or capability that lost the chap and his unfortunate son their lives, it was his decision to walk out there without considering weather/tides etc.
As for the pipe dream of multi-capable SAR assets liberally sited around the coast, who is going to pay for it? fundraising a la air ambulance? police authorities? the coastguard? At the moment the DTLR is very happy to let the MOD fund most of UK SAR from the defence budget as it a. fulfils their commitment to the Chicago Convention for SAR in our area of responsibility and b. doesn't require Gordon Brown to stump up the cash because it is already allocated out of a dwindling defence budget.
However watch this space - the military is constantly being pressured to cut costs and so far SAR has not been shown to be deployable (something which is very desireable in modern military thinking), it is an easy target for the bean counters and could so simply be sloped off the the DTLR to sort out.
Out of interest the RAF Sea King fleet is being upgraded with a FLIR turret over the next couple of years which should further enhance our capability. (that's each aircraft with a FLIR not one turret for the whole SAR force!!)
As for the pipe dream of multi-capable SAR assets liberally sited around the coast, who is going to pay for it? fundraising a la air ambulance? police authorities? the coastguard? At the moment the DTLR is very happy to let the MOD fund most of UK SAR from the defence budget as it a. fulfils their commitment to the Chicago Convention for SAR in our area of responsibility and b. doesn't require Gordon Brown to stump up the cash because it is already allocated out of a dwindling defence budget.
However watch this space - the military is constantly being pressured to cut costs and so far SAR has not been shown to be deployable (something which is very desireable in modern military thinking), it is an easy target for the bean counters and could so simply be sloped off the the DTLR to sort out.
Out of interest the RAF Sea King fleet is being upgraded with a FLIR turret over the next couple of years which should further enhance our capability. (that's each aircraft with a FLIR not one turret for the whole SAR force!!)
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Does anyone know what "Harmonisation" would mean to this sort of scenario? In fact does anyone know anything about Harmonisation? Is just the bringing of Militarty and Civil Helicopter assets under one umbrella or will it include the RNLI, Coastguard and mountain rescue teams?
Sounds like the Grange over "Mud" case was not the sort of thing that any helicopter should be involved in. Yes, scramble an aircraft and get them to have a look, but it I guess any professional pilot would baulk at those conditions. Better to have 2 stuck in the mud than 6 plus Seaking.
Sounds like the Grange over "Mud" case was not the sort of thing that any helicopter should be involved in. Yes, scramble an aircraft and get them to have a look, but it I guess any professional pilot would baulk at those conditions. Better to have 2 stuck in the mud than 6 plus Seaking.
Join Date: Jan 2002
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Maximum slopes?
I've tried searching the forum without much success, so I throw myself on the mercy of you guys.
We (some firends and I) were talking about being rescued by helicopter and the perception was they would get down anywhere. As a plank driver I naturally pointed out they couldn't land and people would have to be winched on and that takes time and so the number of people rescued would be pretty limited, particularly if any distance was involved.
So the big question is what are the limits for landing a large (SeaKing) or similar? I guess they are set by the degree of movement from the rotors etc but surely that is 10 degrees or less?
Thanks
We (some firends and I) were talking about being rescued by helicopter and the perception was they would get down anywhere. As a plank driver I naturally pointed out they couldn't land and people would have to be winched on and that takes time and so the number of people rescued would be pretty limited, particularly if any distance was involved.
So the big question is what are the limits for landing a large (SeaKing) or similar? I guess they are set by the degree of movement from the rotors etc but surely that is 10 degrees or less?
Thanks
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Excellent question, especially from a 'Plank Driver'..( you have the potential of increasing your worth by becoming a real Heli Pilot)!
Slope limits are ignored all to often, and many pilots have been caught out by their lack of knowledge, with some deadly results!
To give you an idea, the UH-60 has a slope limitation of 15 degrees left or right slope with decreasing levels for nose up or tail up conditions!
The Bell 206 doesn't have any slope limitations posted and leaves it to the skill of the operator/pilot to determine!
Many a UH-1, especially after a mod was fitted on to the mast, had a very limited side slope condition, which brought the dynamic rollover condition closer to effect than previously designed!
Slope limits are ignored all to often, and many pilots have been caught out by their lack of knowledge, with some deadly results!
To give you an idea, the UH-60 has a slope limitation of 15 degrees left or right slope with decreasing levels for nose up or tail up conditions!
The Bell 206 doesn't have any slope limitations posted and leaves it to the skill of the operator/pilot to determine!
Many a UH-1, especially after a mod was fitted on to the mast, had a very limited side slope condition, which brought the dynamic rollover condition closer to effect than previously designed!
As HPB infers. it's a case of 'consult the flight manual' for each type, although, as often, FAR certificated rotorcraft may have 'recommended' max slopes rather than 'Limits'.
Control power, available cyclic stick movement (esp. in some relative winds) C of G and undercarriage configuration all play a part.
Generally, skid equipped aircraft are easier than wheels. If tricycle wheels are fitted, a nosewheel lockpin is highly desirable, as on SA330 but not on B412 wheeled kit.
The dear old Wessex needed a firm touch, so as not to excite ground resonance.
Aircraft with rigid or semi-rigid rotor systems require great care not to impose high mast bending moments, so in-slope cyclic use will be limited, nothwithstanding available control displacement.
Some helis may be landed nose down slope: Chinook, for example. (But left to its own devices it doesn't know back end from front anyway: try it AFCS off on instruments!)
If you've got appendages like TV/FLIR turret additional limits to the basic clearance may apply.
Hope this adds a bit.
Control power, available cyclic stick movement (esp. in some relative winds) C of G and undercarriage configuration all play a part.
Generally, skid equipped aircraft are easier than wheels. If tricycle wheels are fitted, a nosewheel lockpin is highly desirable, as on SA330 but not on B412 wheeled kit.
The dear old Wessex needed a firm touch, so as not to excite ground resonance.
Aircraft with rigid or semi-rigid rotor systems require great care not to impose high mast bending moments, so in-slope cyclic use will be limited, nothwithstanding available control displacement.
Some helis may be landed nose down slope: Chinook, for example. (But left to its own devices it doesn't know back end from front anyway: try it AFCS off on instruments!)
If you've got appendages like TV/FLIR turret additional limits to the basic clearance may apply.
Hope this adds a bit.
Gasax - there are no sloping ground landing limits for the Sea King - only for shutting down the rotor on a slope. However, as you rightly surmise there will be a physical limit to how much of a slope you can land on and in the Sea King it is the droop stops. If you are carrying out a sloping ground landing and you have to use so much in-slope cyclic that the rotors are prevented from further flapping by the droop stops (droop stop pounding) then it is time to take the hint and find a better landing area. With a nose up slope on our Sea Kings, the proximity of the Sand Filter assembly is a major factor and landing on slopes of more than 5 degrees should be done with great care.
You will be pleased to know that if we can't land on to rescue you then we will winch our very friendly and highly trained winchman down to you to patch you up/put you in a stretcher before winching you to safety.
You will be pleased to know that if we can't land on to rescue you then we will winch our very friendly and highly trained winchman down to you to patch you up/put you in a stretcher before winching you to safety.
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Rescue Services- Information Needed
Hi everyone.
I'd like to get information about how H24 Civil SAR services are organized around the world.
Please, answer the following questions about SAR service you are working for (or you have good information about):
For a single H24 SAR helicopter...
1) Service and location.
2) Response Time (Day/Night)
----Pilots----
3) Number of Captains.
4) Number of Copilots.
----Working Conditions----
5) Duty Shifts (daily and monthly).
6) Averaged days off over the month.
7) Averaged days off over the year.
8) During the night, are you located on the base or you have a celular phone (or beeper) with you at home?
On my country, for a H24 SAR helicopter there are only three pilots (2 Captains+1 Copilot).
They have 20 days on (in a row!!) and 10 days off.
The most incredible things is THERE ARE NO DAY/NIGHT SHIFTS. The same flight crew is on duty all day long, everyday, during 20 days.
During day, flight crew is located on the SAR base waiting for a call.
During night, they are at home (or at the hotel) with a celular phone under the pillow with a response time of 30-40 minutes (to be airbone)
It's crazy. Safety is below minimum.
We're trying to improve our working conditions, but we need some information.
Thanks in advance.
Talvin.
I'd like to get information about how H24 Civil SAR services are organized around the world.
Please, answer the following questions about SAR service you are working for (or you have good information about):
For a single H24 SAR helicopter...
1) Service and location.
2) Response Time (Day/Night)
----Pilots----
3) Number of Captains.
4) Number of Copilots.
----Working Conditions----
5) Duty Shifts (daily and monthly).
6) Averaged days off over the month.
7) Averaged days off over the year.
8) During the night, are you located on the base or you have a celular phone (or beeper) with you at home?
On my country, for a H24 SAR helicopter there are only three pilots (2 Captains+1 Copilot).
They have 20 days on (in a row!!) and 10 days off.
The most incredible things is THERE ARE NO DAY/NIGHT SHIFTS. The same flight crew is on duty all day long, everyday, during 20 days.
During day, flight crew is located on the SAR base waiting for a call.
During night, they are at home (or at the hotel) with a celular phone under the pillow with a response time of 30-40 minutes (to be airbone)
It's crazy. Safety is below minimum.
We're trying to improve our working conditions, but we need some information.
Thanks in advance.
Talvin.
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You'll have to look at the detail of the EU Directive. All commercial flying is NOT included. It would depend upon whether you fit the categories - they have a category called "contract pilots" to whom the Directive does not apply. I am NOT saying this is sensible BUT do check the detail..........
Join Date: Nov 2002
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I fail to find the part which excludes contract pilots. Latest version of the directive I could find is 2000/79/EF.
I would like your views on the interpertation of this document.
Happy new year !
I would like your views on the interpertation of this document.
Happy new year !
Talvin - a typical RAF SAR flight in UK has 2 airframes, between 8 and 10 pilots (2 pilot ops on Sea King), 4 - 5 radar operators and the same number of winchmen. This gives you between 4 and 5 full crews. The readiness state is 15 minutes from 0800 to 2200 and then 45 mins from 2200 to 0800, the crews sleep on the flight and take all their meals there.
The shift changeover time varies from flight to flight but the shift is for 24 hours (first standby) - the following day the next crew takes over and the offgoing crew become the second standby crew on 60 minutes readiness either on the flight or at home if they live close enough and they will normally do tasking/airtests/training as required. The second standby lasts until Evening Civil Twilight or 2200 which ever is the sooner.
Normally a crew will do a run of 3 first and second standby duties over 6 days before having some standdown/leave and on average a crew will do between 8 and 10 first and second standbys a month.
To support this we have have 3 shifts of up to 10 engineers who carry out all first and second line servicing/washing/see outs/refuels etc - they also work a 24 hour shift system.
During the shift the crew is allowed to complete up to 4 hours of training (usually 2 hours day and 2 hours night) and after that can only launch on Sarops.
The shift changeover time varies from flight to flight but the shift is for 24 hours (first standby) - the following day the next crew takes over and the offgoing crew become the second standby crew on 60 minutes readiness either on the flight or at home if they live close enough and they will normally do tasking/airtests/training as required. The second standby lasts until Evening Civil Twilight or 2200 which ever is the sooner.
Normally a crew will do a run of 3 first and second standby duties over 6 days before having some standdown/leave and on average a crew will do between 8 and 10 first and second standbys a month.
To support this we have have 3 shifts of up to 10 engineers who carry out all first and second line servicing/washing/see outs/refuels etc - they also work a 24 hour shift system.
During the shift the crew is allowed to complete up to 4 hours of training (usually 2 hours day and 2 hours night) and after that can only launch on Sarops.
Talvin
Some info' that may help.
1) Gov't SAR/EMS in Australia
2) Day 20min / Night 30min
3) 4 line pilots (plus 1 management pilot for leave / sickness coverage)
4) SPIFR (we carry Aircrewmen & Rescue Crewmen)
5) 2 days 08:00 to 18:00 / 2 nights 18:00 to 08:00 thn 4 off.
6) 15
7) 180
8) All shifts on-site (night is logged as "standby at work" until the bell goes)
Response times as above, however we are encouraged to take the required time to properly & carefully plan, particularly at night after waking up. (re: sleep inertia!) Not to say we can "take our time" unnecessarily of course, but if it takes 40 min to safely plan a difficult task, then so be it.
Yes I know how good we've got it.
Some info' that may help.
1) Gov't SAR/EMS in Australia
2) Day 20min / Night 30min
3) 4 line pilots (plus 1 management pilot for leave / sickness coverage)
4) SPIFR (we carry Aircrewmen & Rescue Crewmen)
5) 2 days 08:00 to 18:00 / 2 nights 18:00 to 08:00 thn 4 off.
6) 15
7) 180
8) All shifts on-site (night is logged as "standby at work" until the bell goes)
Response times as above, however we are encouraged to take the required time to properly & carefully plan, particularly at night after waking up. (re: sleep inertia!) Not to say we can "take our time" unnecessarily of course, but if it takes 40 min to safely plan a difficult task, then so be it.
Yes I know how good we've got it.
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SAR in PR of China
I keep hearing about how helicopter operators/schools are looking for assistance with the introduction of new Search and Rescue training in PR of China. I believe that the PR China have just received new S76As and want to extend their SAR capability. Hard as I try, I cannot seem to get to speak to anyone who might be interested in my help. What am I doing wrong? My consultancy has an impressive list of credentials in the SAR role and is well-placed to undercut the 'big boys'. Biggest frustration - no one will even reply to my initial contact (perhaps it all looks like spam!). I thought I had a good contact at Avion Pacific Ltd, but nobody seems prepared to talk. Can anyone out there help me? I just need a foot in the door, then I can pitch my proposal. With an impressive list of associates with over 15, 000 hrs rotary SAR, we know what we are talking about.
Any fellow Ppruners able to give me a steer?
Atlas Aviation Consulting
Any fellow Ppruners able to give me a steer?
Atlas Aviation Consulting