Robinson R22 Corner [Archive copy]
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SFAR 73 R22 question
I know of instructors who are providing FAA IR training in R22s that do NOT have the SFAR73 instructor "signoff endorsement" - is this legal?
One of them said to me "the signoff wasnt required for IFR flight"
But SFAR 73 5) iv) states that an endorsement is needed to teach in R22s. It doesnt mention VFR/IFR.
?????
One of them said to me "the signoff wasnt required for IFR flight"
But SFAR 73 5) iv) states that an endorsement is needed to teach in R22s. It doesnt mention VFR/IFR.
?????
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I fly in Europe, Here you don't have to do the safety course but it's a good idea.
I don't know if you need a sign off in the States, This said if you do need a sign off for visual instruction it makes sense that you'd need a sign of for instrument instruction (You can still have the same problems occur)
It sounds like your instructor is talking through his arse.
I don't know if you need a sign off in the States, This said if you do need a sign off for visual instruction it makes sense that you'd need a sign of for instrument instruction (You can still have the same problems occur)
It sounds like your instructor is talking through his arse.
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Those instructors have got it wrong.
The SFAR says...
(5) No certificated flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a flight review in a Robinson R-22 or R-44 unless that instructor-- etc...etc...etc...
Flight training is defined as training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft. 61.1(b)(6)
Instrument training is defined as time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions. 61.1.(b)(10)
Although the SFAR uses the term 'instruction' instead of 'training', the intent is the same. This is explained in part in John Lynch's FAR FAQ.
So to conduct any sort of training in the R22/44 the pilot must have complied with SFAR73-1(5) a.k.a 'Sign-off'.
Those instructors most likely believe they do not need the sign off for IFR on the basis that the pilot they are flying with is already a rated pilot.
However, if they are logging this flight as training towards an instrument rating (i.e. counting towards the aeronautical experience requirements) then the flight is considered a 'training' flight and the SFAR sign off is required.
cl12pv2s
The SFAR says...
(5) No certificated flight instructor may provide instruction or conduct a flight review in a Robinson R-22 or R-44 unless that instructor-- etc...etc...etc...
Flight training is defined as training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft. 61.1(b)(6)
Instrument training is defined as time in which instrument training is received from an authorized instructor under actual or simulated instrument conditions. 61.1.(b)(10)
Although the SFAR uses the term 'instruction' instead of 'training', the intent is the same. This is explained in part in John Lynch's FAR FAQ.
So to conduct any sort of training in the R22/44 the pilot must have complied with SFAR73-1(5) a.k.a 'Sign-off'.
Those instructors most likely believe they do not need the sign off for IFR on the basis that the pilot they are flying with is already a rated pilot.
However, if they are logging this flight as training towards an instrument rating (i.e. counting towards the aeronautical experience requirements) then the flight is considered a 'training' flight and the SFAR sign off is required.
cl12pv2s
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priming an r22 in denmark
i am informed by a danish pilot that in denmark r22's are primed by means of a pump on the floor and not the throttle (is this modification from the factory??) and also that the carby heat control is on the dash where the cabin air knob is, is this right??? , if so why is it so??? 
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now I am not an expert in this but I have flown a UK registered R22 with priming pump.
my understanding is that they are normally fitted to aircraft that operate in cold countries (the one I flew had come from sweden)
the pump is located next to the datcon meter, and you pump it a few times then ensure that is down and locked prior to starting.
all it does is give a squirt of fuel direct into the Inlet manifold or direct into each cylinder (I cant recall which) to aid starting, and the exterior pipework was evident on both sides of the engine.
so in the UK you never need to use it, furthermore on the a/c I flew the carb heat was in the normal place NOT where the cabin air knob normally is.
thats all I know, can anyone expand on this ?
regards
CF
my understanding is that they are normally fitted to aircraft that operate in cold countries (the one I flew had come from sweden)
the pump is located next to the datcon meter, and you pump it a few times then ensure that is down and locked prior to starting.
all it does is give a squirt of fuel direct into the Inlet manifold or direct into each cylinder (I cant recall which) to aid starting, and the exterior pipework was evident on both sides of the engine.
so in the UK you never need to use it, furthermore on the a/c I flew the carb heat was in the normal place NOT where the cabin air knob normally is.
thats all I know, can anyone expand on this ?
regards
CF
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The primer is an extra option, Ive flown a few R22's with a primer fitted. On the R22 it's next to the datcon you can also have one fitted on the R44 but thats on the right side of the engine. Ive never bothered using it I always prime with the throttle, If ever you fly a heli with primer always make sure it is down and locked in position this is very important.
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Flew an early R44 Clipper which was brought in form Canada/Alaska (can't remember which) and it had a primer by the datcon. Fantastic when OAT's are hovering around zero...three primes, lock it away.... your in business. Have also seen them mounted in the engine bay but never used one. Yet to see one in Aus on a 22.
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R22 model history - any info?
Can anyone shed some light on the main differences between the R22 models (HP, Alpha, Beta, Beta II)
I know the early R22s had a straight tail cone, (ie parallel to the ground) and they angled it up for the later models. And I know the Beta has more power, higher D.A. capablity, and the Beta II has carb heat assist.
Does anyone know a more detailed model history?
I know the early R22s had a straight tail cone, (ie parallel to the ground) and they angled it up for the later models. And I know the Beta has more power, higher D.A. capablity, and the Beta II has carb heat assist.
Does anyone know a more detailed model history?
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I can give you model and production years as quoted from the AFE R22 Pilots Guide:
1979 - 1983:- R22 Standard
1979 - present: - R22 HP
1983 - present: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - present: - R22 Mariner II
1979 - 1983:- R22 Standard
1979 - present: - R22 HP
1983 - present: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - present: - R22 Mariner II
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That timeline looks well wrong! I don't have this from any official documentation, but given the start dates (which I don't disbelieve) it should be more like:-
1979 - 1981:- R22 Standard
1981 - 1983: - R22 HP
1983 - 1985: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - 2003: - R22 Mariner II
Note that Standards all became HP models on overhaul, so there should be no Standards left flying at all.
- The Standard version had the Lycoming 0-320 A2B or A2C engine, the others had the 0-320 B2C
- The MTOW went up from 590kg initially and is now 622kg (1300 > 1370lb) although not sure which models that changed between.
- The tail boom took a slightly higher angle from the Alpha onwards ie the Standard and HP had tail rotors slightly nearer the deck
1979 - 1981:- R22 Standard
1981 - 1983: - R22 HP
1983 - 1985: - R22 Alpha
1985 - 1996 :- R22 Beta
1985 - 1996:- R22 Mariner
1996 - present: - R22 Beta II
1996 - 2003: - R22 Mariner II
Note that Standards all became HP models on overhaul, so there should be no Standards left flying at all.
- The Standard version had the Lycoming 0-320 A2B or A2C engine, the others had the 0-320 B2C
- The MTOW went up from 590kg initially and is now 622kg (1300 > 1370lb) although not sure which models that changed between.
- The tail boom took a slightly higher angle from the Alpha onwards ie the Standard and HP had tail rotors slightly nearer the deck
ppheli is about right: the only other things I can add is that the battery in early (up to HP's) was in the nose - this got moved to the engine bay for the Beta. I think this also was the point at which the MTOW increased from 1300 to 1370lbs.
And the Beta II got a Lycoming 360 engine, although derated to provide the same power as a Beta, for improved high altitude performace. The Beta II does use more fuel though for marginal advantage for sea level ops, so lots of operators still prefer the overhauled Beta.
And the Beta II got a Lycoming 360 engine, although derated to provide the same power as a Beta, for improved high altitude performace. The Beta II does use more fuel though for marginal advantage for sea level ops, so lots of operators still prefer the overhauled Beta.
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The difference between the Alpha and Beta is the size of the oil cooler. The larger one in the Beta changes the available derated power from 124 to 131 (5 Minute) where the Alpha only has 124 MCP.
While the Beta II is listed in the POH as having a 160 horsepower engine, it's really a 180 horsepower engine. The reason it's listed like this is that Robinson wanted a part of the engine (I don't recall which part) made out of a different type of lighter metal. The only way Lycoming would do this was to give the engine a listed maximum HP output of 160, which Robinson didn't need anyways as it derates to 131/124. But the engine will do 180 horsepower, which is the reason the Beta IIs are more powerful. You'll notice though, that the performance for the OGE hover charts in the same for the Beta and Beta IIs, because they both use 131/124, even though a full Beta II will hover OGE higher than a full Beta most days. They do have different IGE charts though. Powerful ships.
While the Beta II is listed in the POH as having a 160 horsepower engine, it's really a 180 horsepower engine. The reason it's listed like this is that Robinson wanted a part of the engine (I don't recall which part) made out of a different type of lighter metal. The only way Lycoming would do this was to give the engine a listed maximum HP output of 160, which Robinson didn't need anyways as it derates to 131/124. But the engine will do 180 horsepower, which is the reason the Beta IIs are more powerful. You'll notice though, that the performance for the OGE hover charts in the same for the Beta and Beta IIs, because they both use 131/124, even though a full Beta II will hover OGE higher than a full Beta most days. They do have different IGE charts though. Powerful ships.
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Ocerspeeding R22 during startup
Hello
I'm new to this forum, this is my first post. Very interesting to read what subjects are beeing discussed here. I have a PPL(H) and 70 hours flyingtime, building time to start ATPL in spring. I haven't been able to read all posts, so I hope noone has posted this question before.
I had an incident a few hours back while starting up the R22 Beta 2 aircraft I'm flying.
It was a warm day, the OAT said 32 C. The machine had just been used before when I got in, so the engine was very warm.
When I turn the ignition key the engine just roares and goes to maximum (atleast that's what it felt like). It all happened so quickly, but I remember the manifold preassure was above 25 inches.
When I, after a maybe half a second, turned the throttle to minimum, the engine rpm wouldnt go below the yellow area. I had to, after another second, turn on the clutch to get the engine rpm down to green. When I turned on the ignition, I felt the throttle working in my hand, but I dont remember in what way or how much. The engineroar is all I remember.
The governor was on during this incident. What could have happened was the following:
I can have forgotten to set the throttle back to minumum effect after I tested it in the checklist. This would mean I started the engine with the throttle full open. If this was the case it was a very big misstake done by me. If it was set to full effect and I started it, how would the governor react? Would it calmly not allow the rpm to go "red" or what would happen?
The other scenario I'm thinking of is this: When I turned the throttle down to minimum the rpm was still very high, in the upper yellow area. This was probably because the engine was still warm. Maybe the throttle was just open a little bit, and that little extra ontop of the yellow area made the rpm go above 80% when I turned the key, and then the governor would grab it. But the rpm felt much higher than normal 104%
I phoned the owner of the helicopter and he assured me that since the engine was warm, the overspeed would not have done any damage.
But I'm not sure ... been going through what happened in my head many times. Maybe both the engine rpm and manifold preassure was up way above red. Or maybe the surprise of the engine going "full effect" when I expected the normal startupsound scared me so I've made it bigger than it really was.
The mechanic didnt think any action was needed because of this.
Anyone out there who has a diffrent opinion ?
Best regards
RotorSwede
I'm new to this forum, this is my first post. Very interesting to read what subjects are beeing discussed here. I have a PPL(H) and 70 hours flyingtime, building time to start ATPL in spring. I haven't been able to read all posts, so I hope noone has posted this question before.
I had an incident a few hours back while starting up the R22 Beta 2 aircraft I'm flying.
It was a warm day, the OAT said 32 C. The machine had just been used before when I got in, so the engine was very warm.
When I turn the ignition key the engine just roares and goes to maximum (atleast that's what it felt like). It all happened so quickly, but I remember the manifold preassure was above 25 inches.
When I, after a maybe half a second, turned the throttle to minimum, the engine rpm wouldnt go below the yellow area. I had to, after another second, turn on the clutch to get the engine rpm down to green. When I turned on the ignition, I felt the throttle working in my hand, but I dont remember in what way or how much. The engineroar is all I remember.
The governor was on during this incident. What could have happened was the following:
I can have forgotten to set the throttle back to minumum effect after I tested it in the checklist. This would mean I started the engine with the throttle full open. If this was the case it was a very big misstake done by me. If it was set to full effect and I started it, how would the governor react? Would it calmly not allow the rpm to go "red" or what would happen?
The other scenario I'm thinking of is this: When I turned the throttle down to minimum the rpm was still very high, in the upper yellow area. This was probably because the engine was still warm. Maybe the throttle was just open a little bit, and that little extra ontop of the yellow area made the rpm go above 80% when I turned the key, and then the governor would grab it. But the rpm felt much higher than normal 104%
I phoned the owner of the helicopter and he assured me that since the engine was warm, the overspeed would not have done any damage.
But I'm not sure ... been going through what happened in my head many times. Maybe both the engine rpm and manifold preassure was up way above red. Or maybe the surprise of the engine going "full effect" when I expected the normal startupsound scared me so I've made it bigger than it really was.
The mechanic didnt think any action was needed because of this.
Anyone out there who has a diffrent opinion ?
Best regards
RotorSwede
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Overspeeds on startup are generally caused by the throttle being left open or the enging being over-primed. Certainly not unheard of but not healthy.
Bear in mind that with the clutch disengaged the 'red line' is usually much lower than the overspeed line with rotors engaged. I don't fly the R22 but other piston helis have the start up red line at about 1600 rpm.
If I were you, I would have it fully checked out by an engineer before going further.
Bear in mind that with the clutch disengaged the 'red line' is usually much lower than the overspeed line with rotors engaged. I don't fly the R22 but other piston helis have the start up red line at about 1600 rpm.
If I were you, I would have it fully checked out by an engineer before going further.
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The R22 governor does not work below 80% or above 110%. If you started with throttle open you WILL have oversped the engine, because the governor would not have been able to respond fast enough. The rpm would have been past 110% before it could take action.
The Robinson Maintenance Manual, which you engineer will have, sets out the actions to be taken in this event. The onus is on you to declare the overspeed though, and if in doubt err on the side of caution. Undeclared overspeeds can cause catastrophic engine failures at some time in the future.
If, as you suspect, the problem was starting with the throttle open, and the engine rpm went off the gauge, then the engine will need to be stripped and inspected. Insurance will cover it, but someone will need to pay the excess.
An overspeed is an overspeed. It doesn't matter if the engine is warm or cold. Do the right thing.
The Robinson Maintenance Manual, which you engineer will have, sets out the actions to be taken in this event. The onus is on you to declare the overspeed though, and if in doubt err on the side of caution. Undeclared overspeeds can cause catastrophic engine failures at some time in the future.
If, as you suspect, the problem was starting with the throttle open, and the engine rpm went off the gauge, then the engine will need to be stripped and inspected. Insurance will cover it, but someone will need to pay the excess.
An overspeed is an overspeed. It doesn't matter if the engine is warm or cold. Do the right thing.
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RotorSwede,
It sounds to me like the throttle may have been open. It doesn't need to be open much to attain the 80% for the governor to take control...especially with no load on.
As the govenor brings the erpm up to operating rpm, it will do so very quickly. There my be a short spike above operating rpm (104%) because of this.
I am not 100% sure, but it could be possible that the govenor would be able to stop the spike going too high, if the trottle was partially open. However, maybe if the throttle was FULL open, then it might not be able to.
The important thing is that you owned up to it, and gave the decision to a more qualified person. It's hard to admit to bending a helicopter, but you may have saved someone's (may be your own) life by doing so.
Well done!
cl12pv2s
Added: ThreeBlades,
Just a point...I don't know if you are used to the Schweizer, and the limitation about Engine Overspeeds above 2000 with clutch disengaged.
If so, then this does not apply to the R22. In the Schweizer, the overspeed with no clutch is due to the destructive harmonic resonances the 'Lower Coupling Drive Shaft' experiences as it is sped without being 'secured' by the belts.
This mechanism does not apply to the R22, and so there is no similar limitation.
It sounds to me like the throttle may have been open. It doesn't need to be open much to attain the 80% for the governor to take control...especially with no load on.
As the govenor brings the erpm up to operating rpm, it will do so very quickly. There my be a short spike above operating rpm (104%) because of this.
I am not 100% sure, but it could be possible that the govenor would be able to stop the spike going too high, if the trottle was partially open. However, maybe if the throttle was FULL open, then it might not be able to.
The important thing is that you owned up to it, and gave the decision to a more qualified person. It's hard to admit to bending a helicopter, but you may have saved someone's (may be your own) life by doing so.
Well done!
cl12pv2s
Added: ThreeBlades,
Just a point...I don't know if you are used to the Schweizer, and the limitation about Engine Overspeeds above 2000 with clutch disengaged.
If so, then this does not apply to the R22. In the Schweizer, the overspeed with no clutch is due to the destructive harmonic resonances the 'Lower Coupling Drive Shaft' experiences as it is sped without being 'secured' by the belts.
This mechanism does not apply to the R22, and so there is no similar limitation.
Better red than ...
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he assured me that since the engine was warm, the overspeed would not have done any damage
The overspeed will occur if:-
1. Throttle open (rolled left) at startup.
2. Sprag clutch test done the wrong way (open not closed)
3. Lift to hover with the Gov off.
4. Switch off Gov and fly with it off incl. major collective movements in flight
5. In autorotation where the collective is not lifted slightly (more 44 than 22).
The Lycoming engine will roar a bit if the engine is hot/ warm but the tacho should not rise above 65% - 70% at most with the throttle closed. If it is open a bit it may rise a bit further, but the way the engine works is based on the throttle being open to let fuel into the cylinders. Could the butterfly value have stuck open a bit? Could it even have been carb ice that cause it to be a bit stuck (could not close fully) as you ran the engine down at closedown and then started up again with the power off? Ice in a hot engine? Ist possibule.
The tacho could be a bit faulty? May overread in a start up when warm but not cold (check the sensors to see if there is a defect here).
An engine overspeed will come through in about 10 - 30hrs with metal in the oil (specific type of metal, but I cannot recall which). If it was a full open throttle then one may find that the crankshaft bolt in the air cooler fan at the back has been spun, so the wire lock will not line up with the marks. Check this now.
An engine overspeed on startup can generally be identified by the scream of the engine (in pain). If it did you may have done, so monitor the situation with an oil screen test at 10hr intervals. If metal appears, check the tacho brushes and also you may have to have the engine stripped for a full check and some bits replaced.
(NB pilots view, not engineers...)
h-r
