Robinson R22 Corner [Archive copy]
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Port Townsend,WA. USA
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
T-bar cyclic
Something happened with the R22 cyclic on my first lesson in the Robinson and I am not sure what it was.
We were just cruising along without any problem when I noticed the helo was rolling to the left, slowly, even though I was applying right cyclic.
I thought the control had failed but the instructor took the cyclic and brought it back to level.
The instructor didn't say anthing to me but I was stunned because I never lost control in level flight before and wondered what had happened. This is what I think may have happened.
I have about 30 years in fixed wing with control yokes that are a bit like the R22 T-bar only smaller and upside down (the hand holds point up on a Cessna and down on the R22). My theory is this: instinctively I was turning the R22 yoke instead of moving the whole thing to the right as needed, so of course nothing happened when I lowered the grip as I would normally do in a cessna for right roll.
My instructor had no fixed wing time (only R22) and didn't know of how a Cessna is flown. In a Cessna (or Cherokee etc.) the pilot can rest his arm on the armrest and apply roll with up and down on the side of the yoke.
In the R22 the pilot can rest his hand on the leg and apply roll with side to side movement but a fixed wing pilot might revert to up and down pressure in some situations.
I also fly fixed wing aircraft with normal stick controls between the legs and never have any problem converting from moving the lever side to side instead of up and down because the stick doesn't hinge up and down. But the R22 T-stick DOES hinge like a Cessna yoke.
I read about an airline pilot that lost control of a R22 in cruise and wonder if the design of the T-stick could have been a factor because of his mostly fixed wing yoke experience.
Has anybody thought of this possible problem with converting fixed wing pilots to the R22 cyclic?
We were just cruising along without any problem when I noticed the helo was rolling to the left, slowly, even though I was applying right cyclic.
I thought the control had failed but the instructor took the cyclic and brought it back to level.
The instructor didn't say anthing to me but I was stunned because I never lost control in level flight before and wondered what had happened. This is what I think may have happened.
I have about 30 years in fixed wing with control yokes that are a bit like the R22 T-bar only smaller and upside down (the hand holds point up on a Cessna and down on the R22). My theory is this: instinctively I was turning the R22 yoke instead of moving the whole thing to the right as needed, so of course nothing happened when I lowered the grip as I would normally do in a cessna for right roll.
My instructor had no fixed wing time (only R22) and didn't know of how a Cessna is flown. In a Cessna (or Cherokee etc.) the pilot can rest his arm on the armrest and apply roll with up and down on the side of the yoke.
In the R22 the pilot can rest his hand on the leg and apply roll with side to side movement but a fixed wing pilot might revert to up and down pressure in some situations.
I also fly fixed wing aircraft with normal stick controls between the legs and never have any problem converting from moving the lever side to side instead of up and down because the stick doesn't hinge up and down. But the R22 T-stick DOES hinge like a Cessna yoke.
I read about an airline pilot that lost control of a R22 in cruise and wonder if the design of the T-stick could have been a factor because of his mostly fixed wing yoke experience.
Has anybody thought of this possible problem with converting fixed wing pilots to the R22 cyclic?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Revolution Voyager (the 2 seat version of the ill-fated Mini 500) had a T bar sytem as well. They only made one prototype before the company went bust but inside it looked just like an R22 (at least from the photos I saw.)
I was a bit worried about how easy the T-Bar system would be to use when I was preparing for my first lesson about 6 years ago. Once I had about two minutes at the controls I didn't notice any problems. Now I find getting into anything with a conventional cyclic seems awkward and uncomfortable. Also having the floor space clear in front of the passenger is very useful. You know the Pax isn't going to bump, lean on it or move it at some critical time. Also frees up floor space for other stuff if needed.
I agree with everyone about the comments on the doors. Most times that I have taken people there has been concerned looks as the gap widens and the wind rushes past their left ear. If anything needs fixing its the doors.
I was a bit worried about how easy the T-Bar system would be to use when I was preparing for my first lesson about 6 years ago. Once I had about two minutes at the controls I didn't notice any problems. Now I find getting into anything with a conventional cyclic seems awkward and uncomfortable. Also having the floor space clear in front of the passenger is very useful. You know the Pax isn't going to bump, lean on it or move it at some critical time. Also frees up floor space for other stuff if needed.
I agree with everyone about the comments on the doors. Most times that I have taken people there has been concerned looks as the gap widens and the wind rushes past their left ear. If anything needs fixing its the doors.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Iceland
Age: 53
Posts: 509
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Saw this on NAC website, a very interesting Power Point show about SMA engines. Mr. Robinson might want to have them in his helicopters.
http://www.nac.co.za/Library/SMA.zip
The file is about 6Mb in size.
Heli-Ice
http://www.nac.co.za/Library/SMA.zip
The file is about 6Mb in size.
Heli-Ice
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I bet RHC is going to be flat out in the rotor department for a while with the new CASA directives........ apparently there is already a three month waiting list.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here,there &everywhere
Posts: 248
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duals and passengers
RobboRider
To give you the "floor space" you want infront of your passenger, should you not be removing the dual controlls?
I know its not illegal to fly with a pax and duals aslong as they have been breefed, but does it not make sence to have them removed? Just remember-you need maintenance authority to remove most flight controlls
To give you the "floor space" you want infront of your passenger, should you not be removing the dual controlls?
I know its not illegal to fly with a pax and duals aslong as they have been breefed, but does it not make sence to have them removed? Just remember-you need maintenance authority to remove most flight controlls
Just try removing the "quick remove" duals from an AS350 or EC120 - it is a serious job, engineer required. The clear-floor method of R22 cyclic design is pretty good, especially for females in skirts wanting to sit in the front. No need to avert one's eyes as they clamber around the cyclic with their knickers on display.
I did have a Japanese student who was so small that his legs were straight out to reach the pedals and therefore he couldn't get the tiller handle down to his knee. Simply fixed - he went to K-Mart and bought a rubber booster seat. Probably not legal, but it worked.
For the gaping R22 door problem, it is a simple fix. Get the engineer to fix another of those clip thingys that is already on the bottom of the door, to the top of the door. Works a charm, stops the cold winter winds and keeps the tense pax untense.
I did have a Japanese student who was so small that his legs were straight out to reach the pedals and therefore he couldn't get the tiller handle down to his knee. Simply fixed - he went to K-Mart and bought a rubber booster seat. Probably not legal, but it worked.
For the gaping R22 door problem, it is a simple fix. Get the engineer to fix another of those clip thingys that is already on the bottom of the door, to the top of the door. Works a charm, stops the cold winter winds and keeps the tense pax untense.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ascend Charlie:
Mine doesn't have any clip-thingyies on the rear edge only the front lower edge. The place it opens up is along the back edge just beside the pax left ear. The door is firmly closed at zero speed but in forward flight the drop in pressure around the body sucks the door outwards along the back edge.
I have thought about some sort of clip but can't see how to do it while still maintaining simple easy opening for rapid egress if I had a bingle. I'm sure someone with a few more active and unscrambled neurones than I have could come up with something.
Dynamic Component:
You have it one
Most of the easy remove systems I've seen are anything but easy.
Mine doesn't have any clip-thingyies on the rear edge only the front lower edge. The place it opens up is along the back edge just beside the pax left ear. The door is firmly closed at zero speed but in forward flight the drop in pressure around the body sucks the door outwards along the back edge.
I have thought about some sort of clip but can't see how to do it while still maintaining simple easy opening for rapid egress if I had a bingle. I'm sure someone with a few more active and unscrambled neurones than I have could come up with something.
Dynamic Component:
You have it one
Most of the easy remove systems I've seen are anything but easy.
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here is a suggestion
I do not know if this requires an STC or any other official permission but here is my suggestion. On many light aircraft and on some helicopters there are Plexiglas© devices that are installed in the windows. They are designed to scoop up ram air for ventilation inside the cockpit area. In your case, they could be rotated to allow air to flow out of the cockpit thus reducing the differential pressure that causes the doors to move outward.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R22 Cyclic, Doors, & Other Items...
Most of my time has been in the R22, but I've spent a few hours in the B47 and a couple hours in the B2B. I honestly didn't notice any difference in handling - just a slight change in where to rest my arm. In contrast, I found the collectives in the B47/B2B a bit lower than expected (you really have to push the collective down during landings, autos, etc).
Regarding door modifications for ventilation, here is a company that has approved systems (click on Robinson)...
http://www.tech-tool.com/
If you REALLY want a conventional cyclic in a Robinson, here are some resources...
http://www.helicopterpilotsguide.com/Unusual.html
Shows R22 with Full View Doors, "Conventional" Cyclic Conversion, Slingload Hook (don't ask), Remote Oil Filter Kit, Spray Equipment, and Fuselage Mounted Pods. Cyclic pictures follow:
Regarding door modifications for ventilation, here is a company that has approved systems (click on Robinson)...
http://www.tech-tool.com/
If you REALLY want a conventional cyclic in a Robinson, here are some resources...
http://www.helicopterpilotsguide.com/Unusual.html
Shows R22 with Full View Doors, "Conventional" Cyclic Conversion, Slingload Hook (don't ask), Remote Oil Filter Kit, Spray Equipment, and Fuselage Mounted Pods. Cyclic pictures follow:
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: AZ
Posts: 131
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being 6'6" I've only encountered one problem with the T bar and that is on slope landings. If I get anyone of any height next to me and try and teach them slopes the cyclic motion moves something like, Student moves cyclic till it hits his leg, moves cyclic up to clear his leg and go on the left of mine, goes over his leg and moves it back down. Makes slope landings even more complex and not much fun. Otherwise I love it, especially as an instructor except for when the handle covers my line of sight to the CAT gauge.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ON A HILL
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robinson control inspection.
As it is impossible to inspect the areas of the Robinson cyclic and collective control linkages in the belly pan, and given that there must be fifty metres of wiring in close proximity to the connecting rods and mixer unit. would not a plexiglass panel seem an obvious answer? Or is the pinned on aluminium cover a load carrying component?.
The aluminium panel is screwed in at the rear edge, and fits under a little sticky out bit of metal at the front, whose technical name eacapes me. Rebate ?
It can pop out as a result of a hard landing - the plate that is - and it's not structural.
It can pop out as a result of a hard landing - the plate that is - and it's not structural.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ON A HILL
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robinson control inspection.
Thanks for the reply Nr, but its front skid bow panel that is clamped on one side. If as you say even this panel pops out as the result of a hard landing, I think anyone finding this panel displaced would need to check the tubes around the gearbox mounting area. The panel I was referring to, is the long centre panel that has pins all round it. The reason I raised the question was that it seems rediculous to check the visible links around the gearbox and on top of the mast and yet be unable to check the more conjested areas in the belly pan, when for the want of a clear panel this would be simple.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: S. California & N. Dakota, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is meant by pins? Rivets? The easily removable longitudinal belly panel is held on by a couple of dozen screws. I suppose if someone laid on a really thick coat of paint then said panel might appear to be attached with rivets (or maybe someone lost the screws and attached it with Cherry's!?). And yes, it is structural
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ON A HILL
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robinson control inspection.
Pat Cox. Thanks for the reply, The description "pins" is probably more commonly used here in the UK to describe a method of attatchment. "pinned on" might mean it is fixed by rivets, set pins, bolts, self tappers etc. A bit like we might get the wrong idea if someone said your sisters got a nice little fanny. As you come from Torrance, you dont by any chance work for Robinsons do you. Have a few question about 22 gearboxes , nothing nasty but there is little or no information available here. Regards Bug.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R22 with Floats Just seen in North UK
I have just seen a nice shiney new Red and white R22 fully equiped with Floats, flying east into what I think is about a 25Knt head wind, poor little thing it was a struggle to mentain what looked like 40/50 knts air speed, fifteen mins later it came back this time with a tail wind, going like stink towards the West Coast.
Just a short question if you have floats and you are starting up on water, do you need to give full antitorque as soon as the engine/rotors start to pick up, or is it like doing a spot turn ie. a little at a time untill it is just balanced right?
Peter R-B
Just a short question if you have floats and you are starting up on water, do you need to give full antitorque as soon as the engine/rotors start to pick up, or is it like doing a spot turn ie. a little at a time untill it is just balanced right?
Peter R-B
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: S. California & N. Dakota, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed I do work for RHC. Time constraints, however, only permit me to check into this forum only once or twice a week. Feel free to ask your question, or direct email RHC Tech Support at [email protected] Fly safely!