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AS350 Astar/Squirrel

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AS350 Astar/Squirrel

Old 23rd Oct 2002, 18:56
  #101 (permalink)  
"Just a pilot"
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jefferson GA USA
Age: 70
Posts: 595
Now I feel really bad-I can pull 100% NG at 3000 hp and 22 C, and not hit tq limit in cruise...

Turbomeca is on a call back, forwarded a pile of numbers from previous power checks.

My opposite got a sat power check with a max power climb to 3000, establish cruise and then autorotate to 2000 for the power check, or so he claims.
Devil 49 is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2003, 03:59
  #102 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: oceanside
Posts: 199
Question as-350 b3

looking for operator feedback concerning the as-350 b3 with crash attenuating seats.
question: do you find the cyclic grip too low, or uncomfortable, and would you be interested in an adaptor to raise the height of the cyclic grip.
chopperdr is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2003, 00:14
  #103 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2001
Location: down under
Posts: 123
Exclamation as350b3 normal procedures

i wished the world could be more black&white when it comes to helicopters.

starting up and shutting down the arriel 2b engine is described in the operating handbook something like this:
- to start the engine, go from OFF to ON (flight) with the starting selector, except when below -20 deg C when you must wait until oil temp is >0 deg C before switching to ON.
- shutting down: after setting down the helicopter, wait 30 sec on full RPM (flight idle) and the go from ON to OFF directly with the selector

the technicians in marignane, france, told us that the shutting down procedure is to prevent carbon build-up in the engine.

what happened to the cooldown issue? i was at the american eurocopter factory, and the test pilot told me what the book said as stated above, but good procedures was to wait at IDLE both up and down.

what do you b3-pilots out there think? what do you use for procedures?

tigerpic is offline  
Old 5th Apr 2003, 01:53
  #104 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: CH
Posts: 116
Believe the frenchman. I remember guys coming from Allisons to the Arriel and doing 2 minute rundowns. Longer on the Arriel is not good for it. The temperature in the bearings initially goes down but after 30 secs it goes all over the place. The problem is low oil flow at idle. In fact if you do idle an Arriel it is better to run it back to "Flight" for a period prior to shutting down. Operate IAW the RFM, simple.
John Bicker is offline  
Old 7th Apr 2003, 02:38
  #105 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 1500' AMSL
Age: 63
Posts: 403
I have always complied with the RFM on the B3. This sort of procedure, based also on experience, is not lightly determined by the manufacturer, and untill now I have never heard of something different.
cpt is offline  
Old 29th May 2003, 21:45
  #106 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,048
Post Astar Engineer req.

Hey Lads,

Does anyone know anybody with an Astar engineering ticket who needs some work for the Canadian season?
It will be contract on fires with employment during winter at a major SW Ontario city. Really good conditions and a great boss.

Immigration assistance will be provided for the right person.

Kinda getting urgent too....

Thanks in advance
Please contact:
[email protected]
Steve76 is offline  
Old 30th May 2003, 16:38
  #107 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 179
email address is failing, can you correct
Rob_L is offline  
Old 30th May 2003, 22:28
  #108 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 1,048
There should be a underscore between the collective and bias. I think the underline is absorbing it.
Try again and if it doesn't work I will get another address for you.
Steve76 is offline  
Old 18th Jul 2003, 21:17
  #109 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Used to be God's own County
Posts: 1,562
Thanks, thought there would be more to it!
EESDL is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2003, 15:23
  #110 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Aust
Posts: 14
Question AS350 info wanted pls

Hi all,

Can anyone clarify the system used to record cycles operating the AS350.

I can understand 1 start--shutdown = 1 cycle...............but have been told a percentage of a cycle is recorded each time during a landing when N1 reduces below ???%

Can't remember the figures.....................anyone?


beetlenut is offline  
Old 26th Jul 2003, 22:16
  #111 (permalink)  
"Just a pilot"
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jefferson GA USA
Age: 70
Posts: 595
Without cycle count sheet or RFM handy, I hope the following is helpful-
A normal NG cycle is one start and warmup, takeoff, and 30 sec ground idle cooldown. IN that instance, your cycles would be determined by your maximum NG, a K1 value.
In the real world, you may have many power changes with various high power settings, the highest of which would determine your K1.
You could also have low power settings between starts, so you add a cumulative K2 to the max K1.
Example- I start and takeoff, normal power on approach and cooldown- max Ng 96%, cycles logged 0.6.

Alternate, 1 start and takeoff 96% Ng, K1 0.6, log 0.6 cycles
HOGE power check, max NG 97%, new K1 0.7 log 0.7 cycles
Agressive approach, min NG 85% adjust cycles with a K2 of 0.1, terminate at hover without exceeding previous high NG. No change K1, cycle calculation K1 0.7 + K2 0.1 log 0.8 cycles.
I land from hover and roll back to ground idle, adding a K2 of 0.15 to previous 0.1, total K2 0.25. If I shutdown, cycles would be K1 0.7 + K2 0.25, log 0.95 cycles.
NO engine shutdown, max power departure 100% Ng yields a K1 of 1.0. Then sobered by previous hairy approac, I make a normal power on approach (without exceeding previous high NG) to hover, land and cooldown. Cycles K1 of 1.0 and sum of K2 0.25, Log 1.25 cycles.
Not as complicated as it sounds. Max NG between starts equals K1, add sum of K2 events yields cycles to log.
Devil 49 is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2003, 09:24
  #112 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: On the seven seas
Posts: 54
AS350 Info

After just starting to operate an AS350 along side our Bell 412 I know what you are going through .

I made up this sheet for our pilots to help work through the calculation of NG cycles. This will have to be read in conjunction with the table of Max. and Min. NG found in the Maintenance Manual (Arriel).

Hope it helps

Arriel 1B Cycle Counting:

(I) REFERENCE CYCLE (Ng): Theoretical cycle used a reference for setting service life limits. Includes one start, one power acceleration corresponding to the "takeoff power" and one shutdown.

(ii) OPERATING CYCLES: A flight may consist of two types of cycles:

- Complete Cycle: An engine operating sequence including one start, one power acceleration and one shutdown.
- Partial Cycle: An engine operating sequence corresponding to a power decrease followed by a significant increase without engine shutdown. It may be defined as the number of hover events and landings.

(iii) Free Turbine: All components. One flight = One cycle

Gas Generator Equation: N = K1 + (n x K2)

K1 = Coefficient corresponding to maximum Ng (see table over page)
K2 = Coefficient corresponding to minimum Ng (see table over page)
n = Number of partial cycles carried out between start and shutdown

Jez is offline  
Old 27th Jul 2003, 17:17
  #113 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,865
Absolutely impractical, is it not.
You'd think in this day and age of dirt cheap computers someone would be able to design a $20 box that would record it all for you, eh?
Arm out the window is offline  
Old 28th Jul 2003, 08:22
  #114 (permalink)  

Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 67
Posts: 3,771
Quite agree - I've got better things to do than count how many times I've w*nked the handle

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Old 28th Jul 2003, 09:43
  #115 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Here,there &everywhere
Posts: 248

We use max NG pulled during the flight + min NG used(only 85% or below)x the amount of times you droped the collective below 85% inflight for NG cycles.

I can't remember the rest of the figures, but you can find them in the Turbomeca Manuals.
As for NF cycles, 1 startup +1Flight +1Shut down= 1cycle
Dynamic Component is offline  
Old 28th Jul 2003, 11:13
  #116 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 241
If your boss has enough coins in the bank you can buy a cycle counter that works it all out for you but it is pretty straight forward to record the cycles after a while when you get your head around it.
bellsux is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2003, 20:19
  #117 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Aust
Posts: 14
Thanks to all respondents, think these comments sum it all up

Absolutely impractical, is it not.

Quite agree - I've got better things to do than count how many times I've w*nked the handle
Especially on a up/down/up/down survey trip the number of landings gets a bit blurred.

Cheers BN
beetlenut is offline  
Old 1st Aug 2003, 22:15
  #118 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: TI
Posts: 217
It seems you may have "summed it up" without any thought about the consequences. In a country that seems to have "diificulty" counting hours and cycles maybe you should have asked your maintenance engineer "Why?".

Apart from the possible financial implications it has a lot to do with the design of the engine..

The catch is the injection wheel. This wheel is subject to considerable thermal cycle fatigue. If it fails, most of the gas generator rotating assembly will leave the engine rapidly. It has been proven a few times, so don't bother.

There are units which will record what you want - 1 is a tacho box from Turbomeca and there are a few aftermarket units. Or is this a case of "can't be arsed?"
Giovanni Cento Nove is offline  
Old 2nd Aug 2003, 17:42
  #119 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Aust
Posts: 14
GCN Maaaate!!,

It seems you may have "summed it up" without any thought about the consequences. In a country that seems to have "diificulty" counting hours and cycles maybe you should have asked your maintenance engineer "Why?".

Nope, you got me completely wrong. This system is impractical and can be a challange to keep correctly. I personnally will get a "click counter" to ensure my tallys are right.

It just seems stupid that these "after market" accessories are not included in the initial A/C build.............. a bit like auto-relight systems (don't get me started).

Cheers BN

PS: I dont think everyone has problems with truthfully recording Hrs or Cycles.
beetlenut is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2003, 05:14
  #120 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: West of zero
Posts: 237
AS350 BA Wt & Bal

Don't have a flight manual handy, and I'm looking for the wt & balance information for the BA model Astar - Squirrel for Europeans. Basically, all the info required to calculate a weight and CG position - weight/CG envelope, cg positions and limits of seats and bagage compartments, etc. - except for the empty of the individual machine. Browsing the web hasn't turned up anything, does anybody know a website with this info?

Many thanks in advance.
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