R22 & R44 blade delamination
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Blade delam
Robo has also published a warning re flying R44's regularly out of balance; as the tail rotors have been known to delaminate following misuse by Radio Station Traffic ‘copters and Law enforcement choppers in the USA. New models have been upgraded.
Do you mean this?
http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/..._trim_0607.pdf
this doesn't have anything to do with debonding. It's about T/R blades developing cracks from excessive stress due to flying out of TRIM.
http://www.robinsonheli.com/srvclib/..._trim_0607.pdf
this doesn't have anything to do with debonding. It's about T/R blades developing cracks from excessive stress due to flying out of TRIM.
Correct!
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From an email this AM:
In case you aren't aware, FAA issued an AD on all Robinson helicopters requiring an initial inspection of the main rotor blades for delamination effective 1/18/08 - subsequent to this inspection & prior to EVERY flight a rated pilot must make a maintenance log entry that the blade inspection was performed. Aside from satisfying Robinson's lawyers and making everyone's life miserable (pilots, FAA inspectors, etc.) - this AD has severe impact on student pilots (they aren't rated as outline in the AD) and legally will not be able to fly solo after 1/18!
In case you aren't aware, FAA issued an AD on all Robinson helicopters requiring an initial inspection of the main rotor blades for delamination effective 1/18/08 - subsequent to this inspection & prior to EVERY flight a rated pilot must make a maintenance log entry that the blade inspection was performed. Aside from satisfying Robinson's lawyers and making everyone's life miserable (pilots, FAA inspectors, etc.) - this AD has severe impact on student pilots (they aren't rated as outline in the AD) and legally will not be able to fly solo after 1/18!
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EN48,
Whilst I think it is good to have such info passed on, I think that Student pilots will still be able to fly solo, its just that the test must be carried out by a fully qualified Pilot, who in the most cases I could think of would be the Flight Training Establishments Fi or Cfi who would be a qualified and experienced pilot.
One thing also should be kept in mind and that is the preservatiion of ones own safety, many people who want to fly know a little about what could mechanically go wrong, but equally there are many who would not know how to conduct the " Knock or Tap test" to hear the subtle change of tone that could indicate any form of delam.
For I think the FAA have taken a bold step in putting out this AD, the thing is how will the RHC react to it will they be brave and make it world wide or will they as they seem to now and as in the past keep quiet and say Nowt,... except to blame the Pilot!!
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
Whilst I think it is good to have such info passed on, I think that Student pilots will still be able to fly solo, its just that the test must be carried out by a fully qualified Pilot, who in the most cases I could think of would be the Flight Training Establishments Fi or Cfi who would be a qualified and experienced pilot.
One thing also should be kept in mind and that is the preservatiion of ones own safety, many people who want to fly know a little about what could mechanically go wrong, but equally there are many who would not know how to conduct the " Knock or Tap test" to hear the subtle change of tone that could indicate any form of delam.
For I think the FAA have taken a bold step in putting out this AD, the thing is how will the RHC react to it will they be brave and make it world wide or will they as they seem to now and as in the past keep quiet and say Nowt,... except to blame the Pilot!!
Peter R-B
Vfrpilotpb
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Peter-RB,
The quote I posted above was from an email written by a high time Robinson ATP/CFII who I believe to be well informed. I have relatively little Robbie experience/knowledge, so cannot comment further.
The quote I posted above was from an email written by a high time Robinson ATP/CFII who I believe to be well informed. I have relatively little Robbie experience/knowledge, so cannot comment further.
The initial inspection is carried out by an engineer.
The repetitive visual inspection is carried out by a rated pilot.
If it fails that inspection then an engineer is required to carry out the tap test.
I suggest that everyone should read the AD on the FAA's web site before signing anything.
The pilot certification called for in the AD is probably not valid in the UK, but a statement quoting the AD number and the sub paragraphs probably is.
I am sure EASA will clarify the situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
The repetitive visual inspection is carried out by a rated pilot.
If it fails that inspection then an engineer is required to carry out the tap test.
I suggest that everyone should read the AD on the FAA's web site before signing anything.
The pilot certification called for in the AD is probably not valid in the UK, but a statement quoting the AD number and the sub paragraphs probably is.
I am sure EASA will clarify the situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!
Given that UK non commercial (private )aircraft do not have a tech log and your aircraft log books might well be held by your maintenance provider where are you going to sign anyway?
AMOC for blades on Robinson
FAA Awards Airwolf Aerospace AMOC to AD 2007-26-12 on Robinson Rotor Blades
Airwolf Aerospace has been granted an Alternative Method of Compliance (AMOC) by the Federal Aviation Administration for Airworthiness Directive 2007-26-12. The AD was issued for delamination of Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters’ main rotor blades. Installation of Airwolf’s Rotor Blade Protective Tape system is found by the FAA to provide a permanent and acceptable level of safety.
The AMOC permits all R22 and R44 operators to use Airwolf’s Rotor Blade Protective Tape which , eliminates the need for preflight inspections and entries into the aircraft’s permanent maintenance record, which would otherwise be mandatory under the requirements of the AD. The AMOC also legally eliminates the restriction on the installation of “blade tapes (anti-erosion tapes)”, which was recently added by Robinson to its Maintenance Manuals.
Airwolf’s solution STC-SR02491CH is a one-time application, using a unique adhesive polymer tape to prevent permanently the leading-edge skin debonding, which occurs when the bond line is exposed due to excessive erosion of the blade’s painted finish
“As of today, our Protective Rotor Blade Solution is the only permanent product on the market that is AD 2007-26-12 compliant”, says Jonny Quest, Airwolf’s technical director. “Now operators don’t have to go through daily blade inspections and can rely on an inexpensive and one-time application solution to a problem, which affects more than 2290 helicopters in the US alone.”
Robinson operators, mechanics and maintenance departments can order the Airwolf RBPT factory-direct at http://www.airwolfaerospace.com/ or at 800-326-1534, 440-632-5136s.
Wednesday, January 23, 2008 / Airwolf Aerospace
Airwolf Aerospace has been granted an Alternative Method of Compliance (AMOC) by the Federal Aviation Administration for Airworthiness Directive 2007-26-12. The AD was issued for delamination of Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters’ main rotor blades. Installation of Airwolf’s Rotor Blade Protective Tape system is found by the FAA to provide a permanent and acceptable level of safety. The AMOC permits all R22 and R44 operators to use Airwolf’s Rotor Blade Protective Tape which , eliminates the need for preflight inspections and entries into the aircraft’s permanent maintenance record, which would otherwise be mandatory under the requirements of the AD. The AMOC also legally eliminates the restriction on the installation of “blade tapes (anti-erosion tapes)”, which was recently added by Robinson to its Maintenance Manuals.
Airwolf’s solution STC-SR02491CH is a one-time application, using a unique adhesive polymer tape to prevent permanently the leading-edge skin debonding, which occurs when the bond line is exposed due to excessive erosion of the blade’s painted finish
“As of today, our Protective Rotor Blade Solution is the only permanent product on the market that is AD 2007-26-12 compliant”, says Jonny Quest, Airwolf’s technical director. “Now operators don’t have to go through daily blade inspections and can rely on an inexpensive and one-time application solution to a problem, which affects more than 2290 helicopters in the US alone.”
Robinson operators, mechanics and maintenance departments can order the Airwolf RBPT factory-direct at http://www.airwolfaerospace.com/ or at 800-326-1534, 440-632-5136s.
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The flying school that I SFH from are arranging briefing sessions with a qualified engineer for all of their PPLs.
They have a new sheet in the Tech Log to be signed before every flight confirming that a compliant check has been made.
They clarified this morning that I could fly locally if an instructor had checked the blades and signed them off, but I couldn't land away as I hadn't been briefed yet thus couldn't yet check for the return flight [under their local implementation of the AD].
Good point raised above regarding solo students. Expect solo circuits and solo nav are not a problem if an instructor checks before departure. But for solo land away (including QXC) does an instructor or engineer need to be on standby at each site to sign off every leg?
RC
They have a new sheet in the Tech Log to be signed before every flight confirming that a compliant check has been made.
They clarified this morning that I could fly locally if an instructor had checked the blades and signed them off, but I couldn't land away as I hadn't been briefed yet thus couldn't yet check for the return flight [under their local implementation of the AD].
Good point raised above regarding solo students. Expect solo circuits and solo nav are not a problem if an instructor checks before departure. But for solo land away (including QXC) does an instructor or engineer need to be on standby at each site to sign off every leg?
RC
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The Dreaded Robinson Blade Delamination
Its happened to our R44. Less than 200 hours total on the blades and we have to throw one away. Lives near the sea but always hangared and has a relatively quiet life. US$20,000 for a blade plus reattachment of our old spindle.
I know this has been brought up before but has anyone managed to get any warranty or contribution from Uncle Frank??
Also I saw a thread a while back on this airwolf tape.. is this preventative and repair?? anyone had any experience of using it??
I know this has been brought up before but has anyone managed to get any warranty or contribution from Uncle Frank??
Also I saw a thread a while back on this airwolf tape.. is this preventative and repair?? anyone had any experience of using it??
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Hey guys,
One of the choppers I fly had the blade paint slowly eating away, and during the 100 hour the mechanic cleaned it up nicely and painted it. Lasted for one flight, then wore off again. Painted it again, wore off again. We were unable to fly the thing half of the time due to this, until the mechanic apparently found something in the AD that says it is the mechanic's responsibility to monitor the blades, so thus put an update in the POH and required no pre-flight inspection. Met with an R44 operator in another state that had the same thing.
Anyone know the details on this little path?
Mike
One of the choppers I fly had the blade paint slowly eating away, and during the 100 hour the mechanic cleaned it up nicely and painted it. Lasted for one flight, then wore off again. Painted it again, wore off again. We were unable to fly the thing half of the time due to this, until the mechanic apparently found something in the AD that says it is the mechanic's responsibility to monitor the blades, so thus put an update in the POH and required no pre-flight inspection. Met with an R44 operator in another state that had the same thing.
Anyone know the details on this little path?
Mike
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Originally Posted by generalspecific
Also I saw a thread a while back on this airwolf tape.. is this preventative and repair?? anyone had any experience of using it??
If you think about it, if you don't clean your blades, you have decreased performance. So if you apply the tape, you might end up with less performance too. The question is just how significant that is. In my opinion, good inspection and if needed repainting the blade does the trick. That's also what RHC effectively says.
Also, the new blades starting from a certain serial number are excluded from that new AD for blade inspection. According to Pat Cox at RHC, they make them differently and they use different materials.
Last edited by Runway101; 2nd May 2008 at 12:57. Reason: Corrected typos
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Also, the new blades starting from a certain serial number are excluded from that new AD for blade inspection. According to Pat Cox at RHC, they make them differently and they use different materials.
Blades Robinson
Have a read and the a think as to how to comply.
Robinson say you have to refinish blades if the paint is eroded Before the bond line is scoured, so if you re paint as required,then bond line cracks that the NTSB suggest you look out for are being covered with new paint, in some cases at very regular intervals.
A case damned if you do & damned if you don't.
http://www.verticalmag.com/control/n...es/?a=7891&z=6
Robinson say you have to refinish blades if the paint is eroded Before the bond line is scoured, so if you re paint as required,then bond line cracks that the NTSB suggest you look out for are being covered with new paint, in some cases at very regular intervals.
A case damned if you do & damned if you don't.
http://www.verticalmag.com/control/n...es/?a=7891&z=6
Last edited by 500e; 24th Jun 2008 at 10:17.
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This is really becoming quite concerning. I had seen pictures of the peeled back skin of the Aussie 22 but I had no idea there had been in flight break ups. There goes my "worst case i'll get it back on the ground with a lot of vibration in time for a change of trousers" theory...
The statement that there were "obvious areas where skin debonded from the adhesive bond joint between the skin and spar were found on 10 main rotor blades on RHC helicopters" is interesting. Define obvious. Our 44 blades went back to Robbo recently and were deemed unfit and 20,000 USD later we now have a new set. TT for those blades just over 200 hours, but no waranty ?!?!
The NTSB goes on to say "bond joints are likely to degrade with time when subjected to harsh environments, such as the high humidity and high temperatures typically found at or near the sea".. so thats us screwed then as we sit in 40 degrees next to the sea...
Surely something has to change here above and beyond the development of a new super tap test (or whatever they come up with). Our ship is hangered and well looked after. Its a syndicate machine with a good bunch of pilots so its life isn't that hard.
Some may say who knows what happens unless you fly every hour your self but if the blades can only make 200 hours, then sea and heat and occasional rough handling or not there has to an issue with the manuacturing process.
I know there have been other threads on this but it would be intersting to see how many others have had to do blade changes (a lot I suspect) and how many had to pay (also a lot I suspect).
In my humble the R44 is the best value for money out there and does much of what the kerosene burners can do for a price that privates and mere mortals can justify. But the blade issue is taking some of the shine off....
The statement that there were "obvious areas where skin debonded from the adhesive bond joint between the skin and spar were found on 10 main rotor blades on RHC helicopters" is interesting. Define obvious. Our 44 blades went back to Robbo recently and were deemed unfit and 20,000 USD later we now have a new set. TT for those blades just over 200 hours, but no waranty ?!?!
The NTSB goes on to say "bond joints are likely to degrade with time when subjected to harsh environments, such as the high humidity and high temperatures typically found at or near the sea".. so thats us screwed then as we sit in 40 degrees next to the sea...
Surely something has to change here above and beyond the development of a new super tap test (or whatever they come up with). Our ship is hangered and well looked after. Its a syndicate machine with a good bunch of pilots so its life isn't that hard.
Some may say who knows what happens unless you fly every hour your self but if the blades can only make 200 hours, then sea and heat and occasional rough handling or not there has to an issue with the manuacturing process.
I know there have been other threads on this but it would be intersting to see how many others have had to do blade changes (a lot I suspect) and how many had to pay (also a lot I suspect).
In my humble the R44 is the best value for money out there and does much of what the kerosene burners can do for a price that privates and mere mortals can justify. But the blade issue is taking some of the shine off....
Is it that cheap with no real warranty! the factory appears to say it is the owners fault whatever (blades, starters, ring gear, corrosion, etc.) look at the threads.
I am not saying that any of the other manufacturers are better, but at least they don't sell on the premiss that they are cheap to run.
Time that owners got stuck in and called a halt, if you sell a helicopter to HK. it should be fit for purpose same as any where else.
Perhaps if they were stuck with the cost same a a recall on vehicles + loan machine
I am not saying that any of the other manufacturers are better, but at least they don't sell on the premiss that they are cheap to run.
Time that owners got stuck in and called a halt, if you sell a helicopter to HK. it should be fit for purpose same as any where else.
Perhaps if they were stuck with the cost same a a recall on vehicles + loan machine
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Originally Posted by generalspecific
Our 44 blades went back to Robbo recently and were deemed unfit and 20,000 USD later we now have a new set. TT for those blades just over 200 hours, but no waranty ?!?!
Two of the three blades had accumulated approximately 1,280 hours TIS and were not among the 10 blades found to have debonded between July 2006 and January 2007. Details of the third blade were not known at the time this safety recommendation letter was prepared. RHC had not reported new cases of a blade that was associated with debond between the skin and spar after January 2007.
The article also doesn't explain why from a certain serial number the blades are deemed to be safe. No mention of a changed manufacturing process. If anybody can shed some light on this, I am lost with all the info available.
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generalspecific
I suggest that this quote is rubbish
Re the trousers full, yes there were two in oz that we know that qualify, on the R22.
There was one on an R44 which was worse, blade delammed, and on the way down (the machine was on a power line inspection job I think) the machine hit one of the wires just enough to right the A/C before impact. If my hazy memory is correct they all got out. very lucky.
The story first put around was that the product was rubbish and we're all on a death wish etc.
but not so says the chinaman, it appears that investigation has revealed that the blade had been being over zealously polished with a power drill attachment, thus heating the skin edges too much for the glue integrity.
May i suggest that within your group that you check that none of your keen enthusiasts are using a power drill with a lapidary attachment (kid leather or some such) to polish the blades.
Just might be a clue, if not check for any other heating agent. I am positive that old 'sol' cannot be blamed.
tet
I suggest that this quote is rubbish
so thats us screwed then as we sit in 40 degrees next to the sea...
There was one on an R44 which was worse, blade delammed, and on the way down (the machine was on a power line inspection job I think) the machine hit one of the wires just enough to right the A/C before impact. If my hazy memory is correct they all got out. very lucky.
The story first put around was that the product was rubbish and we're all on a death wish etc.
but not so says the chinaman, it appears that investigation has revealed that the blade had been being over zealously polished with a power drill attachment, thus heating the skin edges too much for the glue integrity.
May i suggest that within your group that you check that none of your keen enthusiasts are using a power drill with a lapidary attachment (kid leather or some such) to polish the blades.
Just might be a clue, if not check for any other heating agent. I am positive that old 'sol' cannot be blamed.
tet