Australian Engineering Crisis
Thread Starter
Australian Engineering Crisis
How is it that we are facing such a big crisis regarding the shortage of engineers in this country and nothing is being done about it?
I am not only referring to CASA here, what about these larger operators that are more than happy to pay there engineers the award wage?
Do we have to actually let the crisis occur before any reactive action is taken?
I am just trying to work out if it is being ignored as a result of the bottom line or if it is due to most of the industry (excluding experienced engineers themselves to whom it would be obvious) being too stupid to see what is coming.
I am sure that there are many operators out there that feel that they don't deserve any of the blame but hey, you are after all the ones that are paying such a pathetic salary. You are the ones that want to continue as a company and provide a good service so you need to start adapting your strategy (and accounting) to encounter this inevitable problem.
It is going to be a very big problem and there is no sense in sitting back and blaming the government and waiting for them to solve the problem. We are the industry after all, don't we have a bit more incentive than the regulators?
What is like around the world? Is there any others out there facing a distinct possibility of engineering shortages?
They have taught many a monkey how to fly but they haven't yet taught one to fix them.
I am not only referring to CASA here, what about these larger operators that are more than happy to pay there engineers the award wage?
Do we have to actually let the crisis occur before any reactive action is taken?
I am just trying to work out if it is being ignored as a result of the bottom line or if it is due to most of the industry (excluding experienced engineers themselves to whom it would be obvious) being too stupid to see what is coming.
I am sure that there are many operators out there that feel that they don't deserve any of the blame but hey, you are after all the ones that are paying such a pathetic salary. You are the ones that want to continue as a company and provide a good service so you need to start adapting your strategy (and accounting) to encounter this inevitable problem.
It is going to be a very big problem and there is no sense in sitting back and blaming the government and waiting for them to solve the problem. We are the industry after all, don't we have a bit more incentive than the regulators?
What is like around the world? Is there any others out there facing a distinct possibility of engineering shortages?
They have taught many a monkey how to fly but they haven't yet taught one to fix them.
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Collectively speaking ....
I think the smart engineers have moved on to better paying jobs, where they dont have to continually try to justify maintenance bills to operators who happily pay zillions for helicopters and spare parts, but cant come to terms with paying $70 per hour for the maintenance.
I think the smart engineers have moved on to better paying jobs, where they dont have to continually try to justify maintenance bills to operators who happily pay zillions for helicopters and spare parts, but cant come to terms with paying $70 per hour for the maintenance.
Last edited by sprocket; 7th Apr 2006 at 21:24.
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Hi Guys (& Gals)
Ho Hum......This issue was flagged years ago so it shouldn't be a big surprise except to newcomers to the industry. If you sit back and take a deep breath to get beyond the frustations and cast your mind back, way back.
Remember that the airlineswere the largest (combined) single civilian source of trade graduates. However they also wanted to reduce the amount of LAMES in their employ but maintain a proportionate number of workers in the hangar and workshops to meet their production demands. This brought about changes in the types of apprenticeships offered by the airlines - thus different trade qualifications for the graduate (not necessarily to LAME level). This was understandable because the airlines needed to manage its own costs, so lets not blame them but that had a significant effect on the industry in general. Thus some rearward slip with LAMES.
Meanwhile, the govenrment introduced new training schemes for apprentices, training providers merely had to (and still do) teach the training syllabus (which does not require an apprentice to be trained to LAME level) only to a trade qualification level which is set by another body. While all this has been taking place, the fact that the period needed to qualify a LAME to a competent (dual) licence level has not changed and neither has the regulator's requirements for qualification, so we can see a rearward slip in the industry.
The military produce well trained people for their own requirements and to a different qualification level again, so those leaving the military and wishing to join the civilian side of the industry had to (and still do) meet the regulator's requirements for qualification. The conversion from the military to the civilian side of things does not mean that the military personnel are lesser qualified or not as competent as their civil colleagues, it is simply that they have different qualifications and have to convert. Not all those that leave the military want to join the civilian aviation industry either. A bit more of a rearward slip.
Another contributor to the rearward slip was the reformation of the education system and the loss of the technical schools training program (years ago), the systemic acceptance of lesser education standards and the career choices available to students that have attained good results from their studies. Why would you want to enter an apprenticeship that only provides you with a half-way qualification upon graduation when other choices can provide much greater benefits? The aviation industry has to compete to attract people the same way that other industries do.
It would be reasonable to assume that once an apprentice has been indentured, the apprentice will complete his or her apprenticeship, but this is not necessarily the case. Apprentices like everyone else in the industry are exposed to its foibles and may have to change employers or work locations from time to time just to keep their apprenticeship going. That may mean a change in trade school (and its learning program) and other hardships as well - not a good thought for a young person and not necessarily a great incentive to continue training.
Organizations need to maintain a ratio of trades people to apprentices except where special consideration and permission is given by the training body, so not all maintenance facilities will be able to employ an apprentice. Those that do have to pay the prescribed wage, but they do not have to guarantee pristine working conditions, and so the rearward slip continues further.
The government acknowledges that there is a general shortage in the trades and is looking at ways to fast track training programs. This suggests that a fast track program will focus on specific skills only. Therefore the broad skills base of the current trades people will probably evaporate when they retire and we will have more "specialists" in the trades. The provisions for this aspect have already been included in the re-write of the "new" rules but it won't alleviate the operator's need for LAMES, just reduce their reliance on the number of LAMES they need to employ (within certain sectors of the industry).
I won't mention the point that pay should be commensurate with knowledge and skills, I'll leave that for another time, I think I've said enough.
Yeh, I wonder why there's a LAME shortage?
Ho Hum......This issue was flagged years ago so it shouldn't be a big surprise except to newcomers to the industry. If you sit back and take a deep breath to get beyond the frustations and cast your mind back, way back.
Remember that the airlineswere the largest (combined) single civilian source of trade graduates. However they also wanted to reduce the amount of LAMES in their employ but maintain a proportionate number of workers in the hangar and workshops to meet their production demands. This brought about changes in the types of apprenticeships offered by the airlines - thus different trade qualifications for the graduate (not necessarily to LAME level). This was understandable because the airlines needed to manage its own costs, so lets not blame them but that had a significant effect on the industry in general. Thus some rearward slip with LAMES.
Meanwhile, the govenrment introduced new training schemes for apprentices, training providers merely had to (and still do) teach the training syllabus (which does not require an apprentice to be trained to LAME level) only to a trade qualification level which is set by another body. While all this has been taking place, the fact that the period needed to qualify a LAME to a competent (dual) licence level has not changed and neither has the regulator's requirements for qualification, so we can see a rearward slip in the industry.
The military produce well trained people for their own requirements and to a different qualification level again, so those leaving the military and wishing to join the civilian side of the industry had to (and still do) meet the regulator's requirements for qualification. The conversion from the military to the civilian side of things does not mean that the military personnel are lesser qualified or not as competent as their civil colleagues, it is simply that they have different qualifications and have to convert. Not all those that leave the military want to join the civilian aviation industry either. A bit more of a rearward slip.
Another contributor to the rearward slip was the reformation of the education system and the loss of the technical schools training program (years ago), the systemic acceptance of lesser education standards and the career choices available to students that have attained good results from their studies. Why would you want to enter an apprenticeship that only provides you with a half-way qualification upon graduation when other choices can provide much greater benefits? The aviation industry has to compete to attract people the same way that other industries do.
It would be reasonable to assume that once an apprentice has been indentured, the apprentice will complete his or her apprenticeship, but this is not necessarily the case. Apprentices like everyone else in the industry are exposed to its foibles and may have to change employers or work locations from time to time just to keep their apprenticeship going. That may mean a change in trade school (and its learning program) and other hardships as well - not a good thought for a young person and not necessarily a great incentive to continue training.
Organizations need to maintain a ratio of trades people to apprentices except where special consideration and permission is given by the training body, so not all maintenance facilities will be able to employ an apprentice. Those that do have to pay the prescribed wage, but they do not have to guarantee pristine working conditions, and so the rearward slip continues further.
The government acknowledges that there is a general shortage in the trades and is looking at ways to fast track training programs. This suggests that a fast track program will focus on specific skills only. Therefore the broad skills base of the current trades people will probably evaporate when they retire and we will have more "specialists" in the trades. The provisions for this aspect have already been included in the re-write of the "new" rules but it won't alleviate the operator's need for LAMES, just reduce their reliance on the number of LAMES they need to employ (within certain sectors of the industry).
I won't mention the point that pay should be commensurate with knowledge and skills, I'll leave that for another time, I think I've said enough.
Yeh, I wonder why there's a LAME shortage?
Tox, well said in some areas!
The way I see it, apprentices are not being hred nowadays! When I started out, about 10-15 years ago, there was about 7 apprentices put on every year around the airport. Now, you'd be lucky to see 2 put on every year (two years running there was none put on between 11 maintance companies!) It all starts out at the bottom. Many LAME's are retiring, or moving onto jobs with-in the marine or transport industries that are paying almost 1.5 times what they get now, no need to sit exams, and conditions are much better working on new equipment! ....... So, YES, it is up to the major and minor companies to think of their future employees ans staff strategies, and employ people who will build up to be a LAME, just as good as the rest of us. Just imagine - what would have happened if we did not get employed as an apprentice?? So much to say, but won't waste my breathe!
BUT........... 1 question......
What do maintenance operators or contractors think the wage should be in relation to the customer charge out rate???? It has always been indicated to any contractors that it would just be under half of what the billing rate is. EXAMPLE: A customer gets charged $80 per hour for a service on their machine. A contractor is required to quickly carry out the task. They would charge the maintenance company about $40p/h, or whatever their set rate is? This is a justified thing for their qualifications.....
What do other contractors charge Asia & Australia wide??
The way I see it, apprentices are not being hred nowadays! When I started out, about 10-15 years ago, there was about 7 apprentices put on every year around the airport. Now, you'd be lucky to see 2 put on every year (two years running there was none put on between 11 maintance companies!) It all starts out at the bottom. Many LAME's are retiring, or moving onto jobs with-in the marine or transport industries that are paying almost 1.5 times what they get now, no need to sit exams, and conditions are much better working on new equipment! ....... So, YES, it is up to the major and minor companies to think of their future employees ans staff strategies, and employ people who will build up to be a LAME, just as good as the rest of us. Just imagine - what would have happened if we did not get employed as an apprentice?? So much to say, but won't waste my breathe!
BUT........... 1 question......
What do maintenance operators or contractors think the wage should be in relation to the customer charge out rate???? It has always been indicated to any contractors that it would just be under half of what the billing rate is. EXAMPLE: A customer gets charged $80 per hour for a service on their machine. A contractor is required to quickly carry out the task. They would charge the maintenance company about $40p/h, or whatever their set rate is? This is a justified thing for their qualifications.....
What do other contractors charge Asia & Australia wide??
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I think that lack of motivation is also a key part in the problem.
Young people these days don't want to have to do a days manual work. They are more interested in becoming computer programmers, or something like that than manual labour!!!
Gone are the days of gaining a trade, doing as little as possible seems more important.
Some of the apprentices I have met in the last few years have no motivation at all. If the company were'nt offering them everything on a plate they would have gone out and tried to work towards it themselves, they would have just hunted around for another company to give it to them!!!
When I started out the people I trained with WANTED to do the job, they were there because that was their dream and their ambition in life, me included, and I just don't think that is the case anymore!
Young people these days don't want to have to do a days manual work. They are more interested in becoming computer programmers, or something like that than manual labour!!!
Gone are the days of gaining a trade, doing as little as possible seems more important.
Some of the apprentices I have met in the last few years have no motivation at all. If the company were'nt offering them everything on a plate they would have gone out and tried to work towards it themselves, they would have just hunted around for another company to give it to them!!!
When I started out the people I trained with WANTED to do the job, they were there because that was their dream and their ambition in life, me included, and I just don't think that is the case anymore!
Thread Starter
Tox
It is one thing to realise how many factors/policies/incentives(or lack of) that have been involved in getting to the state it is now. I am not expressing my surprise as if I think this was caused by a sudden lack of interest brought about by the cooler than average climate yesterday. I am expressing my surprise in how this is being dealt by the Australian aviation industry.
If what every owner, bean counter or otherwise has told me in the past is true, then they need to change the way they operate and renumerate to make the traineeships and later employment more attractive.
All the glamours of aviation engineering
and what goes with it will never outshine the dollar.
I agree that it can be difficult for an apprentice who has to move but that should not come into the decision to enter into one. You start an apprenticeship to finish it and qualify. The number one "foible" is the lack of financial incentives and support for the would be LAME--and the LAME.
I agree with MS about the cycle theory but I think the part of the cycle we are in could use a bit of a nudge. On the other hand I could just shutup and look forward to the salary
I also think we have gone through a part of the cycle where apprentices aren't being taught properly. There is a substantial difference between delegating and grooming and I don't think that is understood by a lot of LAME's from the last 12 or 15 years. There is a certain something that hasn't rubbed off and it is steadily decreasing with each old salt that retires.
Sprocket
A portion of the "smart"engineers that have moved on are not going to help solve any of the issues that the industry is facing.
HeliEng
There is a few slack arsed kids around mate, but there are a lot of good ones too, thanks to good upbringings. In the rural areas mate is where the young fellas are keen and still know how to work. First they have got to know what it is like to want something, then they work for it. But hey, maybe if I had my time again I wouldn't have taken it on for the pitiful wage I was paid and the exams I had to pay for etc.
If it turned out that Molly Meldrum isn't gay and the bean counters haven't been talking s
to me all this time than the Howard government needs to step in with some type of financial solution. Peronally, I,d consider we'd have more chances of shoving a pound of butter up a wild cats a e with a red hot carving knife.
I will leave you all with that thought.
It is one thing to realise how many factors/policies/incentives(or lack of) that have been involved in getting to the state it is now. I am not expressing my surprise as if I think this was caused by a sudden lack of interest brought about by the cooler than average climate yesterday. I am expressing my surprise in how this is being dealt by the Australian aviation industry.
If what every owner, bean counter or otherwise has told me in the past is true, then they need to change the way they operate and renumerate to make the traineeships and later employment more attractive.
All the glamours of aviation engineering
and what goes with it will never outshine the dollar.I agree that it can be difficult for an apprentice who has to move but that should not come into the decision to enter into one. You start an apprenticeship to finish it and qualify. The number one "foible" is the lack of financial incentives and support for the would be LAME--and the LAME.
I agree with MS about the cycle theory but I think the part of the cycle we are in could use a bit of a nudge. On the other hand I could just shutup and look forward to the salary
I also think we have gone through a part of the cycle where apprentices aren't being taught properly. There is a substantial difference between delegating and grooming and I don't think that is understood by a lot of LAME's from the last 12 or 15 years. There is a certain something that hasn't rubbed off and it is steadily decreasing with each old salt that retires.Sprocket
A portion of the "smart"engineers that have moved on are not going to help solve any of the issues that the industry is facing.
HeliEng
There is a few slack arsed kids around mate, but there are a lot of good ones too, thanks to good upbringings. In the rural areas mate is where the young fellas are keen and still know how to work. First they have got to know what it is like to want something, then they work for it. But hey, maybe if I had my time again I wouldn't have taken it on for the pitiful wage I was paid and the exams I had to pay for etc.
If it turned out that Molly Meldrum isn't gay and the bean counters haven't been talking s
to me all this time than the Howard government needs to step in with some type of financial solution. Peronally, I,d consider we'd have more chances of shoving a pound of butter up a wild cats a e with a red hot carving knife.I will leave you all with that thought.
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Yes, and as is typical in the Australian aviation industry, it will fumble along, scrape by until it snows in the Northern Territory and when all those well-paid public servants decide to pull their heads out of the sand and deal with anything all they'll get is sunburn.
The industry should be flourishing and its not. We are on the upturn - yes, that one that everyone was "promising" was coming. Well, it's here and it isn't being managed properly.
Industry goal setting meeting:
What shall we do this year? Ho, hum.
We've cashed in on the security concept. Lets concentrate on reprinting masses of documents, get the spell checker out, insert a few words so we look like we've acheived something and show the public how clever we are and how many trees we can use. No, hang on lets change some rules and reprint masses of documents, get the spell checker out, insert a few words so we look like we've achieved something. What's that Charlie, yes pass the beer nuts!
The industry should be flourishing and its not. We are on the upturn - yes, that one that everyone was "promising" was coming. Well, it's here and it isn't being managed properly.
Industry goal setting meeting:
What shall we do this year? Ho, hum.
We've cashed in on the security concept. Lets concentrate on reprinting masses of documents, get the spell checker out, insert a few words so we look like we've acheived something and show the public how clever we are and how many trees we can use. No, hang on lets change some rules and reprint masses of documents, get the spell checker out, insert a few words so we look like we've achieved something. What's that Charlie, yes pass the beer nuts!
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Bellfest,
If you would like a pay raise, go see your boss and ask straight out. Or change jobs to a new boss that will pay you what you expect. If what you say about the alleged shortage is true you will have no problem.
Don’t expect to stay put in your comfort zone and have your wage magically grow by its self.
Increase your skills or move jobs.
Your boss isn’t feeling the pinch of an engineering shortage because you are there, to lazy to go anywhere.
HOT TIP. No one ever has gained a pay increase by bleating on PPRUNE.
Anyway, piss off; we pilots don’t give a stuff about your underclass of grubby losers. This forum is for professionals like me.
Gymble.
If you would like a pay raise, go see your boss and ask straight out. Or change jobs to a new boss that will pay you what you expect. If what you say about the alleged shortage is true you will have no problem.
Don’t expect to stay put in your comfort zone and have your wage magically grow by its self.
Increase your skills or move jobs.
Your boss isn’t feeling the pinch of an engineering shortage because you are there, to lazy to go anywhere.
HOT TIP. No one ever has gained a pay increase by bleating on PPRUNE.
Anyway, piss off; we pilots don’t give a stuff about your underclass of grubby losers. This forum is for professionals like me.
Gymble.
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Originally Posted by Miss Heli
Yes, and as is typical in the Australian aviation industry, it will fumble along, scrape by until it snows in the Northern Territory and when all those well-paid public servants decide to pull their heads out of the sand and deal with anything all they'll get is sunburn.
It is no different in South Africa!
Drives you nuts
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Here's a horrible thought for you ....
If you want to go fly helicopters for a living it is possible(?) for you to get some money, go study pass the test and (possibly) be a safe(?) commercial pilot though very inexperienced within a year!!!
It would take at least 5 years of intense hard work for a suitably tenacious candidate to get to be anyway near being competent as a helicopter engineer let alone having the necessary licences and the (vast) experience to be useful in the industry.!!!!!
It would seem that on face value our great CASA is actually making it MORE difficult for our industry to survive than to foster improvements (I do not see user charges in any way helps our industry) and actually will force people to seek employment in other industries which will recognise the efforts required and will reward them appropriately.
Cheers "Spinny"
If you want to go fly helicopters for a living it is possible(?) for you to get some money, go study pass the test and (possibly) be a safe(?) commercial pilot though very inexperienced within a year!!!
It would take at least 5 years of intense hard work for a suitably tenacious candidate to get to be anyway near being competent as a helicopter engineer let alone having the necessary licences and the (vast) experience to be useful in the industry.!!!!!
It would seem that on face value our great CASA is actually making it MORE difficult for our industry to survive than to foster improvements (I do not see user charges in any way helps our industry) and actually will force people to seek employment in other industries which will recognise the efforts required and will reward them appropriately.
Cheers "Spinny"
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IMHO, the U.K is no better.
Becoming a pilot just seems to be a case a money. If you have the cash, then it's not a problem, but to become an engineer there is no reduction in time scale for having a wad of £50's in your back pocket!!!
The CAA here have it written how much practical experience you must have before you can gain a licence.
Don't get me wrong, our licencing system is far from perfect, I am currently experiencing a gentleman who has a licence, but cannot DO the job for toffee. Has never held an approval in his life because he can't be trusted, despite having held a basic licence for over 5 years!!! The sad thing is, you can't do anything about it. (Apart from sacking him, but with the laws as they are here, that is not an easy thing to do!!)
Most pilots hold engineers in low regard, but that seems to go both ways. Very seldom do you hear an engineer say "That pilot, what a jolly nice fellow", the description would normal involve mostly 'F' words, and the insinuation that he pleasures himself!!!!!!
I'm just waiting for the 
now!!!!
At the end of the day we both have our places, pilots break stuff, and we fix it. One would not have a job without the other.
As far as I am concerned I have given more to my career than a pilot has, not only have I had to dedicate years of my life to gain my qualifications but for the first few every penny I earnt went on building up my toolkit to enable me to do my job. With this in mind I believe that pilots are outrageously overpaid, and many are equally ungrateful.
I'm off the put my head down, and wait for the return fire!!!
Becoming a pilot just seems to be a case a money. If you have the cash, then it's not a problem, but to become an engineer there is no reduction in time scale for having a wad of £50's in your back pocket!!!
The CAA here have it written how much practical experience you must have before you can gain a licence.
Don't get me wrong, our licencing system is far from perfect, I am currently experiencing a gentleman who has a licence, but cannot DO the job for toffee. Has never held an approval in his life because he can't be trusted, despite having held a basic licence for over 5 years!!! The sad thing is, you can't do anything about it. (Apart from sacking him, but with the laws as they are here, that is not an easy thing to do!!)
Most pilots hold engineers in low regard, but that seems to go both ways. Very seldom do you hear an engineer say "That pilot, what a jolly nice fellow", the description would normal involve mostly 'F' words, and the insinuation that he pleasures himself!!!!!!
I'm just waiting for the now!!!!At the end of the day we both have our places, pilots break stuff, and we fix it. One would not have a job without the other.
As far as I am concerned I have given more to my career than a pilot has, not only have I had to dedicate years of my life to gain my qualifications but for the first few every penny I earnt went on building up my toolkit to enable me to do my job. With this in mind I believe that pilots are outrageously overpaid, and many are equally ungrateful.
I'm off the put my head down, and wait for the return fire!!!
Thread Starter
Gymble
Thanks for the hot tip. I will go and approach the boss I don't have about the engineering that I don't do any more and get a pay rise. Maybe you and sprocket should become career advisers
I had to go back and make sure I had titled this thread "Australian engineering crisis" and not "Bellfest engineering crisis". I have a great flying job, great pay and great conditions but hey, thanks for the advice.
HeliEng
I think part of the problem is the way that the younger guys are taught. I have seen 3rd and 4th year apprentices that can't do a flush patch or split a turbine or change a cylinder. It's pathetic.
I think the pilot/engineer feud thing is a complete wank. One on one a smart pilot respects a good engineer and vice versa. A person is a clever thing but people are stupid.
Thanks for the hot tip. I will go and approach the boss I don't have about the engineering that I don't do any more and get a pay rise. Maybe you and sprocket should become career advisers
I had to go back and make sure I had titled this thread "Australian engineering crisis" and not "Bellfest engineering crisis". I have a great flying job, great pay and great conditions but hey, thanks for the advice.HeliEng
I think part of the problem is the way that the younger guys are taught. I have seen 3rd and 4th year apprentices that can't do a flush patch or split a turbine or change a cylinder. It's pathetic.
I think the pilot/engineer feud thing is a complete wank. One on one a smart pilot respects a good engineer and vice versa. A person is a clever thing but people are stupid.
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Festy, I'm not quite sure what you are on about, I thought I gave you my own opinion on your first question ...
Glamball, it is interesting to see you hate those who (apparently) keep you in the air, perhaps one day it will come back and bite you.
How is it that we are facing such a big crisis regarding the shortage of engineers in this country and nothing is being done about it?
Thread Starter
Sprockster
I have read it again and this time it was taken in the right context
. My apolagies old fella. It is true that the good men (and some abselute f&$#in shockers) have got the good jobs outside the penny pinching portion of GA. There is no excuse for it. Companies with multimillion dollar contracts and CEO's with yachts and **** who are not prepared to allocate more funds for the present and future department that is the lifeblood of their existence.
I have read it again and this time it was taken in the right context
. My apolagies old fella. It is true that the good men (and some abselute f&$#in shockers) have got the good jobs outside the penny pinching portion of GA. There is no excuse for it. Companies with multimillion dollar contracts and CEO's with yachts and **** who are not prepared to allocate more funds for the present and future department that is the lifeblood of their existence.
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Bellfest,
I totally agree, we had someone where I used to work that approached the company from college, asking for some work experience. The company obliged, and shortly after they passed all their licence exams, and were looking for some full-time experience to fulfill the CAA licence requirements.
Whilst hunting for a company to take them on, they continued with one day a week where I was working. An LAE showed them a nut and bolt, told to use his tools and remove it. They were seen walking back towards the aircraft with two pairs of pliers!!!!!!
What the hell are colleges teaching? Theory only? My college had two aircraft in a purpose built hangar for students to be let loose on!!!
It just defies belief!!
I totally agree, we had someone where I used to work that approached the company from college, asking for some work experience. The company obliged, and shortly after they passed all their licence exams, and were looking for some full-time experience to fulfill the CAA licence requirements.
Whilst hunting for a company to take them on, they continued with one day a week where I was working. An LAE showed them a nut and bolt, told to use his tools and remove it. They were seen walking back towards the aircraft with two pairs of pliers!!!!!!
What the hell are colleges teaching? Theory only? My college had two aircraft in a purpose built hangar for students to be let loose on!!!
It just defies belief!!
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Miss Heli
Aren’t you an avid skier?
You should check your wx reports more often as it snowed in the NT on the ‘rock’ and a place called ‘billygoat hill’ not long back.
Those blokes in Canberra CASA are usually all skiid out,
But it must have snowed there recently as now I hear they are going to fix the maintenance regulations.
There is big talk of using the best of all available worldwide regs esp. the EASA regs. This might make LAME job satisfaction better than the present climate which is, ‘if you haven’t yet committed a breach then we’ve got a cell waiting for you when you do.’
LAME’s can work for years to get a rating and it is wasted because they are not allowed to use it under the present currency requirements. Something needs to be done about that on the way past; pilots have a much better deal in that regard.
Profound knowledge of their subject is required and not disputed, so some incentives need to be injected, qantas never won any awards with their, “don’t let them do anything other than sort nuts and bolts for a year” attitutude and now they’re complaining about cost of maintenance. Fair dinkum!!!
As bellfest says a bit of real hands on experience is essential.
There may be some duds around, I’ve only ever seen a couple, the sheer weight of study required to be a LAME means a fair quota of intelligence so employers could start recognising that which would be a good start.
The line often repeated in the bush is the competition for eager people, I.E. the mining industry is employing very limited skills people for 100k and they work only half the year.
Surely there must be some young people in the cities that are unemployed who would make good engineers? Has anyone thought of inviting a few of the fairer sex to have a go? I have seen some bloody good female pilots, I bet they would be gentle with a spanner.
Two suggestions;
1. If all pilots from all parts of the industry wrote up all of their hours then there would be a damm site less fixing going on and a lot more money to share around.
2. If all pilots were required to do a year on the floor with some required credits before being allowed in the front office, it would help their respect of things mechanical and mean a lot less broken stuff later on.
You should check your wx reports more often as it snowed in the NT on the ‘rock’ and a place called ‘billygoat hill’ not long back.
Those blokes in Canberra CASA are usually all skiid out,
But it must have snowed there recently as now I hear they are going to fix the maintenance regulations.
There is big talk of using the best of all available worldwide regs esp. the EASA regs. This might make LAME job satisfaction better than the present climate which is, ‘if you haven’t yet committed a breach then we’ve got a cell waiting for you when you do.’
LAME’s can work for years to get a rating and it is wasted because they are not allowed to use it under the present currency requirements. Something needs to be done about that on the way past; pilots have a much better deal in that regard.
Profound knowledge of their subject is required and not disputed, so some incentives need to be injected, qantas never won any awards with their, “don’t let them do anything other than sort nuts and bolts for a year” attitutude and now they’re complaining about cost of maintenance. Fair dinkum!!!
As bellfest says a bit of real hands on experience is essential.
There may be some duds around, I’ve only ever seen a couple, the sheer weight of study required to be a LAME means a fair quota of intelligence so employers could start recognising that which would be a good start.
The line often repeated in the bush is the competition for eager people, I.E. the mining industry is employing very limited skills people for 100k and they work only half the year.
Surely there must be some young people in the cities that are unemployed who would make good engineers? Has anyone thought of inviting a few of the fairer sex to have a go? I have seen some bloody good female pilots, I bet they would be gentle with a spanner.
Two suggestions;
1. If all pilots from all parts of the industry wrote up all of their hours then there would be a damm site less fixing going on and a lot more money to share around.
2. If all pilots were required to do a year on the floor with some required credits before being allowed in the front office, it would help their respect of things mechanical and mean a lot less broken stuff later on.
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Mmmmm....
The problem is now one of "how do you find the right minded kids?"
The education system has largely evolved away from what is necessary to produce the practical engineering minds that we need.
The old "technical school" system has gone. This used to produce the skill sets which allowed technically minded kids to grasp how things were put together (or made and maintained) ... these skills were then often initially put to use fixing dads car (or similar) ... then once all the boring stuff (academic schooling) was completed we went out to learn about our chosen trade...BUT with a reasonable amount of "savvy" as to what was required.
Yes an aircraft engineering apprentice usually spent his first 2 yrs on the job learning what he should'nt touch! ... and the next 2 yrs getting the experience to touch it all safely...... by then he/she had something like 8 yrs of engineering theory/practice. Then it was time to sit licencing exams which usually took at least another 2 yrs before a licence is issued.
The present educational system does not (in my opinion) breed the type of person required to do the job properly, and the industrial economy does not recompense those who are doing the job well enough either financially or with the appropriate conditions (job security) to entice the would be engineers into the aircraft industry.
Our loss...
Cheers "Spinny"!
The problem is now one of "how do you find the right minded kids?"
The education system has largely evolved away from what is necessary to produce the practical engineering minds that we need.
The old "technical school" system has gone. This used to produce the skill sets which allowed technically minded kids to grasp how things were put together (or made and maintained) ... these skills were then often initially put to use fixing dads car (or similar) ... then once all the boring stuff (academic schooling) was completed we went out to learn about our chosen trade...BUT with a reasonable amount of "savvy" as to what was required.
Yes an aircraft engineering apprentice usually spent his first 2 yrs on the job learning what he should'nt touch! ... and the next 2 yrs getting the experience to touch it all safely...... by then he/she had something like 8 yrs of engineering theory/practice. Then it was time to sit licencing exams which usually took at least another 2 yrs before a licence is issued.
The present educational system does not (in my opinion) breed the type of person required to do the job properly, and the industrial economy does not recompense those who are doing the job well enough either financially or with the appropriate conditions (job security) to entice the would be engineers into the aircraft industry.
Our loss...
Cheers "Spinny"!
Join Date: May 2005
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Don’t get me wrong! I love Pilot/Engineers, they make the best employees. They are:
Committed to the industry.
Have a broad knowledge base.
They rarely break things.
Generally are highly intelligent with superior problem solving ability.
But best of all, as an employer, I get an engineer at a line pilot price. Wonderful!!
There should be more of them. Maybe it would make engineering more attractive to the right type of candidates and not so attractive to some of the fools piloting attracts now.
Piloting could be made one module of an engineers apprenticeship like how to use a hand file is now.
Committed to the industry.
Have a broad knowledge base.
They rarely break things.
Generally are highly intelligent with superior problem solving ability.
But best of all, as an employer, I get an engineer at a line pilot price. Wonderful!!
There should be more of them. Maybe it would make engineering more attractive to the right type of candidates and not so attractive to some of the fools piloting attracts now.
Piloting could be made one module of an engineers apprenticeship like how to use a hand file is now.