Who can fly a S64 Skycrane?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11
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From: Boston
Who can fly a S64 Skycrane?
I’d like your comments, especially from pilots of ‘heavies’ out there, as to what is considered an acceptable level of experience or flight time for a pilot to safely fly an S64 Skycrane on Fire Fighting Operations.
What is the level of experience you would expect to hold a Captain and a Co-pilot position on an aircraft involved in low-level water pickup operations?
Consider that the helicopter being flown is a twin gas turbine, about 9000hp, 90ft long, 70ft rotor diameter, MAUW around 47,000lbs, operated in stressful and potentially dangerous situations, low level, sometimes amongst buildings, trees, wires and smoke.
Again, from a pilot’s point of view, if you were the PIC of this hypothetical helicopter, what level of experience would you expect your co-pilot to have? 200hrs PIC, 1000hrs PIC? What do you think? With a CPL (H) maybe we could all fly this helicopter from A to B but I’m talking about operating it commercially, firefighting and all that it entails.
Just how important is the role of the co-pilot in this case?
Look forward to your comments……………
666
What is the level of experience you would expect to hold a Captain and a Co-pilot position on an aircraft involved in low-level water pickup operations?
Consider that the helicopter being flown is a twin gas turbine, about 9000hp, 90ft long, 70ft rotor diameter, MAUW around 47,000lbs, operated in stressful and potentially dangerous situations, low level, sometimes amongst buildings, trees, wires and smoke.
Again, from a pilot’s point of view, if you were the PIC of this hypothetical helicopter, what level of experience would you expect your co-pilot to have? 200hrs PIC, 1000hrs PIC? What do you think? With a CPL (H) maybe we could all fly this helicopter from A to B but I’m talking about operating it commercially, firefighting and all that it entails.
Just how important is the role of the co-pilot in this case?
Look forward to your comments……………
666
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 900
Likes: 26
From: The Wild West... and Oz
From what I have been told, to be a co-pilot on the Crane with Erickson, around about 2000 plus hours with plenty of turbine and some multi engine time. Once you have about 500 hrs on type, you move across to the other seat.
Give them a call: http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/
Give them a call: http://www.ericksonaircrane.com/
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: Spain
It gets a little complicated with the crane, or any other utility heavy. Hours by themselves won't get you thru the door!
Mission's are varied, and lot's of other issues are involved. Company stuff that doesn't always make a lot of sense at the time...Politics,timing etc!
Sometimes it's a single command pilot, with a co-joe who can be anything from a 2 to 20 year pilot. One outfit used logging/Fire pilots in the left seat, and low time guard pilots (with a type rating courtesy of Uncle Sam) as non flying Captain. (not Erickson) Generally a lot more professional today.(I did say generally!)
Most/Many times it's two command pilots swapping out each cycle...
no co-joe in sight.
But the over-riding issue is, that you'd never get command without substantial longline time.
One scenario could be, that you fly as co-joe for some time, and then go fly support until you're smooth and accurate enough with a line. Or arrive being a seasoned longline pilot who flies as co-joe and then maybe does another stint on support to regain currency, and then left seat as junior pilot (command seat for LL ops) These scenarios have happened in the past several times.
The point is that somewhere in the picture, you have to get solid longline skill in the bag...The rest is pretty much down to the current situation, pilot/contract wise.Anyone can fly the machine, it's the line work that'll stop you from progressing. A little time will be given to let you get used to a new sight picture, and general handling differences, but no-one would train you to fight fire or log in a heavy. (not unless you know where the bodies are hidden, or the owners a parent!)
Regarding the co-joe's importance...You're really as important as you make yourself. Initially you're pretty much ballast. But if you can keep up a high enthiusiasm level, but without driving the other guy crazy with said enthiusiasm...people will want to fly with you. but if the flying pilot comes in from the bubble and spots a problem...temp/pressure etc..and you've been sitting there with nothing else to do but monitor,and you missed it... you'll be a sandbag for a long time. It's a trust thing!
The lowest time guy I personally met who was working as a co-joe, had only flown one other type and that was an R22...He seemed happy enough, but it didn't work out! when he was told he'd never be able to move from that seat.... ever! as he didn't have the command time (read a few hundred hours in R22's) to move into a soloy Hiller or 500 flying support with a 150' line.
Realistically you won't pick up much skill just flying S&L at altitude,which is all you'll get (if that sometimes!) ferrying to a fire etc...Problem is that you can't do much from the right seat except keep it warm! and fly S&L...
(IFR/SAR/and Offshore heavy's are a different deal of course)
If anyone has a dream or opportunity of flying utility heavies. It would make lots more sense to get substantial long line experience before taking it on.
Just my thoughts, Hope this helps...
170
Mission's are varied, and lot's of other issues are involved. Company stuff that doesn't always make a lot of sense at the time...Politics,timing etc!
Sometimes it's a single command pilot, with a co-joe who can be anything from a 2 to 20 year pilot. One outfit used logging/Fire pilots in the left seat, and low time guard pilots (with a type rating courtesy of Uncle Sam) as non flying Captain. (not Erickson) Generally a lot more professional today.(I did say generally!)
Most/Many times it's two command pilots swapping out each cycle...
no co-joe in sight.
But the over-riding issue is, that you'd never get command without substantial longline time.
One scenario could be, that you fly as co-joe for some time, and then go fly support until you're smooth and accurate enough with a line. Or arrive being a seasoned longline pilot who flies as co-joe and then maybe does another stint on support to regain currency, and then left seat as junior pilot (command seat for LL ops) These scenarios have happened in the past several times.
The point is that somewhere in the picture, you have to get solid longline skill in the bag...The rest is pretty much down to the current situation, pilot/contract wise.Anyone can fly the machine, it's the line work that'll stop you from progressing. A little time will be given to let you get used to a new sight picture, and general handling differences, but no-one would train you to fight fire or log in a heavy. (not unless you know where the bodies are hidden, or the owners a parent!)
Regarding the co-joe's importance...You're really as important as you make yourself. Initially you're pretty much ballast. But if you can keep up a high enthiusiasm level, but without driving the other guy crazy with said enthiusiasm...people will want to fly with you. but if the flying pilot comes in from the bubble and spots a problem...temp/pressure etc..and you've been sitting there with nothing else to do but monitor,and you missed it... you'll be a sandbag for a long time. It's a trust thing!
The lowest time guy I personally met who was working as a co-joe, had only flown one other type and that was an R22...He seemed happy enough, but it didn't work out! when he was told he'd never be able to move from that seat.... ever! as he didn't have the command time (read a few hundred hours in R22's) to move into a soloy Hiller or 500 flying support with a 150' line.
Realistically you won't pick up much skill just flying S&L at altitude,which is all you'll get (if that sometimes!) ferrying to a fire etc...Problem is that you can't do much from the right seat except keep it warm! and fly S&L...
(IFR/SAR/and Offshore heavy's are a different deal of course)
If anyone has a dream or opportunity of flying utility heavies. It would make lots more sense to get substantial long line experience before taking it on.
Just my thoughts, Hope this helps...
170
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,119
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From: N20,W99
For any job flying any helicopter requirements tend to vary depending on the companies need for pilots at the time and availability of such pilots.
In some countries it only takes money to become a pilot and get ratings, there are tons of pilots looking for jobs so companies can be picky about whom they choose to fly their aircraft, other countries or companies have to lower their requirements to hire pilots because there are not many suitable candidates. Ask about the pilots who have begun flying the Skycrane at Evergreen, nothing compared to the Ericksson requirements. It would be interesting to see who's flying the Italian ones.
In any case it's not only flight hours that will get you thru the door in most places, it what you have been doing in those flight hours, what would you rather hire to fight fires, a 1500 hours R22 CFI or a 500 hour all turbine, hot, high and heavy guy who's been working out in the field in some remote place?
In some countries it only takes money to become a pilot and get ratings, there are tons of pilots looking for jobs so companies can be picky about whom they choose to fly their aircraft, other countries or companies have to lower their requirements to hire pilots because there are not many suitable candidates. Ask about the pilots who have begun flying the Skycrane at Evergreen, nothing compared to the Ericksson requirements. It would be interesting to see who's flying the Italian ones.
In any case it's not only flight hours that will get you thru the door in most places, it what you have been doing in those flight hours, what would you rather hire to fight fires, a 1500 hours R22 CFI or a 500 hour all turbine, hot, high and heavy guy who's been working out in the field in some remote place?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
From: Boston
All good, thanks for the input .
I haven’t heard about Evergreen’s pilots, what’s going on there now?
It appears that Erickson requirements for copilots flying S64's in Greece and Italy varies with the situation. I’ve heard that comparatively inexperienced pilots are being employed mainly because they can speak the local language. Certainly no longline time involved there, 170 feet.
Also, the situation seems very political in Italy, ‘you’re not nothin’ if you ain’t Italian’. At least that’s the word from a couple of guys who fly there. Flying with a co whose second language is English has real consequences when it gets busy up there.
Any EAC pilots like to comment………….?
I haven’t heard about Evergreen’s pilots, what’s going on there now?
It appears that Erickson requirements for copilots flying S64's in Greece and Italy varies with the situation. I’ve heard that comparatively inexperienced pilots are being employed mainly because they can speak the local language. Certainly no longline time involved there, 170 feet.
Also, the situation seems very political in Italy, ‘you’re not nothin’ if you ain’t Italian’. At least that’s the word from a couple of guys who fly there. Flying with a co whose second language is English has real consequences when it gets busy up there.
Any EAC pilots like to comment………….?
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 273
Likes: 0
From: Spain
Apologies 666...I guess you meant heli tankers only...Not SK64/CH54 in general... There might be a career path for Helitanker only. But the helitanker guys I know, mostly came from the logging world. Some were crusties from the First Cav originally.
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: Minnesota
I have worked for EAC in Malysia as logging support, worked for others in South America, and the Persian Gulf, and have had dealings with enough companies out there.
It seems from my association with these companies that a co-jo is only as valuable as the political climate in the arena you operate in. Call it "international affirmative action" for lack of a PC title, but it is what it is. When you are no longer needed you will go away and the next aspiring wanna be who gets promised a left seat slot if they mind their p's & q's and learn a little english will jump at the chance to be underpaid and never get a minute of PIC time.
To get into the Captain's seat takes alot of initiative, commmitment, connections, longline jobs of all sorts with all kinds of different equipment and a never ending desire to leave your family/kids/loved one/friends/dog/etc...... for the pleasure/ego/evil addictive drug(?) of flying the big iron.
Somewhere on one of the helicopter sites is a 10 step program to rid yourself of the addiction, quite funny actually. My wife has it hanging on the refrigerator door. I think my refrigerator is white?
I've recently taken up the sport of EMS. I have 2 kids? Really? One does look alot like the UPS man now that I think about it.
Guess I'll get to spend ALOT more time with them now that I'm home ALOT more, for the same money even. WOW! I didn't know they paid line/bush pilots this much to start. SSSSHHHHHHH Don't tell the other new hires.
Someone in management says we can fly in the low-level, tree lined, wire infested enviroment better than most.
Running water, WOW.
Electricity, WOW.
Cable TV, you're kidding, right?
WHAT! We can sleep!
In the end, it is what you make of it. If you have the desire and skills you will get there eventually.
Good Luck.
p.s. How's it going WLM and 170'?
It seems from my association with these companies that a co-jo is only as valuable as the political climate in the arena you operate in. Call it "international affirmative action" for lack of a PC title, but it is what it is. When you are no longer needed you will go away and the next aspiring wanna be who gets promised a left seat slot if they mind their p's & q's and learn a little english will jump at the chance to be underpaid and never get a minute of PIC time.
To get into the Captain's seat takes alot of initiative, commmitment, connections, longline jobs of all sorts with all kinds of different equipment and a never ending desire to leave your family/kids/loved one/friends/dog/etc...... for the pleasure/ego/evil addictive drug(?) of flying the big iron.
Somewhere on one of the helicopter sites is a 10 step program to rid yourself of the addiction, quite funny actually. My wife has it hanging on the refrigerator door. I think my refrigerator is white?
I've recently taken up the sport of EMS. I have 2 kids? Really? One does look alot like the UPS man now that I think about it.
Guess I'll get to spend ALOT more time with them now that I'm home ALOT more, for the same money even. WOW! I didn't know they paid line/bush pilots this much to start. SSSSHHHHHHH Don't tell the other new hires.
Someone in management says we can fly in the low-level, tree lined, wire infested enviroment better than most.
Running water, WOW.
Electricity, WOW.
Cable TV, you're kidding, right?
WHAT! We can sleep!
In the end, it is what you make of it. If you have the desire and skills you will get there eventually.
Good Luck.
p.s. How's it going WLM and 170'?
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
From: 3 Degrees North
Hi Jeffrey1
Good to see u on the rotor cyber lane mate. Well put about the co joe requirement eheh particularly down here.
In KL right now doing the u know what for the what I want bit, must be crazy eh....
Take care and fly safe. Keep an eye on the UPS man eh...
WLM
Good to see u on the rotor cyber lane mate. Well put about the co joe requirement eheh particularly down here.
In KL right now doing the u know what for the what I want bit, must be crazy eh....
Take care and fly safe. Keep an eye on the UPS man eh...
WLM
