Mt Kelly R44 with sad loss of 4. Speculation thread
Max
You can't base a flight on a graph out of a flt manual in terrain where local conditions are varied and specific.
A great way to tell how much power you have available is to look at the MAP guage when you take off, which, you should already be doing of course. They are useful and every one should know how to interpret them but the most important thing to know is your machine
You can't base a flight on a graph out of a flt manual in terrain where local conditions are varied and specific.
A great way to tell how much power you have available is to look at the MAP guage when you take off, which, you should already be doing of course. They are useful and every one should know how to interpret them but the most important thing to know is your machine
Gatvol
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Seems to be enough posts here now to make a SWAG about the situation. Only thing missing was the Altitude on Mt Kelly.
Lets see....
R44
4 pax on board
38 C
Plenty of go juice.
I think anyone with common sense may say that this might be nice when a runway at sea level is available. Anything else its just another rock looking for a place to drop.
Someone throw in the Altitude of the crash site and it should place the final nail on the problem. Should be easy to plot on a graph....density altitude etc......
I see a few response here like.........Hell I can fly that thing anywhere fully loaded... Give me a heads up next time you try something like this, so I can post the pictures on PPrune.
Fixed wing guys do this all the time. four Seats= four Pax then they try and take off from something like Aspen Colorado on a summer day. I actually watched a guy do this after we warned him and measured out a no-go spot on the runway......They survived, but the aircraft didnt....
Lets see....
R44
4 pax on board
38 C
Plenty of go juice.
I think anyone with common sense may say that this might be nice when a runway at sea level is available. Anything else its just another rock looking for a place to drop.
Someone throw in the Altitude of the crash site and it should place the final nail on the problem. Should be easy to plot on a graph....density altitude etc......
I see a few response here like.........Hell I can fly that thing anywhere fully loaded... Give me a heads up next time you try something like this, so I can post the pictures on PPrune.
Fixed wing guys do this all the time. four Seats= four Pax then they try and take off from something like Aspen Colorado on a summer day. I actually watched a guy do this after we warned him and measured out a no-go spot on the runway......They survived, but the aircraft didnt....
Bert,
What you basing your call on the fuel on? At what point in the flight(s) was it...had the aircraft been refuelled...was it well into the sortie and thus low on fuel? You assume a bit much there I think.
Tell me you have never flown an aircraft over max weight before....ever? Are you still here? Plainly....the latter is correct and I know your background thus I know the answer to the former.
We all have...thus being overgross is not the mortal sin it is made out to be.
What you basing your call on the fuel on? At what point in the flight(s) was it...had the aircraft been refuelled...was it well into the sortie and thus low on fuel? You assume a bit much there I think.
Tell me you have never flown an aircraft over max weight before....ever? Are you still here? Plainly....the latter is correct and I know your background thus I know the answer to the former.
We all have...thus being overgross is not the mortal sin it is made out to be.
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Originally Posted by SASless
...thus being overgross is not the mortal sin it is made out to be.
oh dear--- if you play with the devil, you better fly like an angel, you cannot expect to fly the aircraft the same way if at or over gross.(compared to below these weights) fly slow, near the point of translation (which you do at times with this type of air work) and all you need is that 5 kt. breeze to disappear behind a hill or do a 180 to tail wind to look at something, guess what happens next..... you need to be able to tell your employer (passenger) "not today sir" and stick to it like s**t to a wool blanket
not saying this is what happened, hate speculating, but had to say something regaurding the over gross statement
B Sousa
I hope you are not referring to me in regards to the fly anywhere fully loaded comment. I will fly anywhere fully loaded but my passengers will be informed that we will be restricted to where we can get in and out of. I don't push any boundaries, I don't flog the machine because it is fully loaded, I fly it ACCORDINGLY. I have not come accross a customer yet who won't instantly accept these limitations ( excluding media of course) and get on with it. I have pondered many a spot that in my mind is right on the cusp of go or no go. Normally in those situations I would offload if I have to and do a couple of runs in and out to get the job done while staying well within the aircraft's capabilities.
I hope you are not referring to me in regards to the fly anywhere fully loaded comment. I will fly anywhere fully loaded but my passengers will be informed that we will be restricted to where we can get in and out of. I don't push any boundaries, I don't flog the machine because it is fully loaded, I fly it ACCORDINGLY. I have not come accross a customer yet who won't instantly accept these limitations ( excluding media of course) and get on with it. I have pondered many a spot that in my mind is right on the cusp of go or no go. Normally in those situations I would offload if I have to and do a couple of runs in and out to get the job done while staying well within the aircraft's capabilities.
Thread Starter
We all have...thus being overgross is not the mortal sin it is made out to be
When you fly over gross, you are using more jelly beans faster than the designers intended. If you fly well over, then you are also likely to be exceeding design strain limitations of both dynamic components AND the static airframe ones. By going over gross you are hoping that you have not caused undue fatigue, or even caused the accelerated propagation of a fatigue crack. You hope, but you dont really know.
Either way, it is unlikely that you will suffer the consequences of your excessive jelly bean use - it is more likely to be the subsequent pilots, ignorant of your jelly bean consumption rates, that find the jar unexpectedly empty.
I have not suggested flying overweight as being the right thing to do. Read the posts...carefully. I said they are not "mortal sins" defined as being those that absolutely result in death and destruction. If you have flown in the mountains at all....you will probably at some time flown at a weight you could not land with on the mountain but is quite safe and legal in the valley on each end of the mountain and for cruise flight at any altitude you can get to.
Thus...since all these self appointed experts that are trying to make this a simple case of a young pilot biting off more than they can chew event....I am suggesting that might not be the case at all.
The body recovery was not complete when all this speculation started....remember.
Immediately it was suggested the poor lady tried to land with more than she could....and no one....not one of you knew what phase of flight the aircraft was in when it crashed.
If the aircraft had an inflight problem that resulted in a forced landing then all of that wonderful clairvoyance so many seem to have.....wrongly describes what happened, and does so quite unfairly in my view.
Don't tell me about the beans in the jar.....until you consider the "beans" spelled "beings" in that helicopter.
If you want to work a performance problem and talk about power margins of an R44 that is cool....but before you apply it to this tragic event....be able to produce an accurate set of numbers for the Weight and Balance of the aircraft, the correct numbers for the climatic conditions that existed at the time of the crash along with the specifics of the landing site to include height of barriers, azimuth of approach, wind speed, direction, and temperature.
We may have our ideas about what happened....but we ought to have some respect for the folks involved....including anyone from the family that might reading this.
Some of you remind me of vultures setting on a fence the way you talk....maybe law school should have been your first choice instead of flight school.
Thus...since all these self appointed experts that are trying to make this a simple case of a young pilot biting off more than they can chew event....I am suggesting that might not be the case at all.
The body recovery was not complete when all this speculation started....remember.
Immediately it was suggested the poor lady tried to land with more than she could....and no one....not one of you knew what phase of flight the aircraft was in when it crashed.
If the aircraft had an inflight problem that resulted in a forced landing then all of that wonderful clairvoyance so many seem to have.....wrongly describes what happened, and does so quite unfairly in my view.
Don't tell me about the beans in the jar.....until you consider the "beans" spelled "beings" in that helicopter.
If you want to work a performance problem and talk about power margins of an R44 that is cool....but before you apply it to this tragic event....be able to produce an accurate set of numbers for the Weight and Balance of the aircraft, the correct numbers for the climatic conditions that existed at the time of the crash along with the specifics of the landing site to include height of barriers, azimuth of approach, wind speed, direction, and temperature.
We may have our ideas about what happened....but we ought to have some respect for the folks involved....including anyone from the family that might reading this.
Some of you remind me of vultures setting on a fence the way you talk....maybe law school should have been your first choice instead of flight school.
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What would have been the flight characteristics of the aircraft in a situation like B Sousa described above? Do the photos seem to suggest the same? (i.e. straight down, no run on landing etc.)
As a newcomer and soon to start training it'd be useful to know how one would detect the onset in flight. There seem to be enough helos "dropping out of the sky" to keep me from wanting to fly anywhere near the limits! So, I'm particularly interested to read the comment about exceeding gross weight not being "the mortal sin.."
(Edited: Sorry SASless - just read your reply whilst typing. Understand a bit more about what you were saying now. Will leave original post as is)
As a newcomer and soon to start training it'd be useful to know how one would detect the onset in flight. There seem to be enough helos "dropping out of the sky" to keep me from wanting to fly anywhere near the limits! So, I'm particularly interested to read the comment about exceeding gross weight not being "the mortal sin.."
(Edited: Sorry SASless - just read your reply whilst typing. Understand a bit more about what you were saying now. Will leave original post as is)
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Bell Fest understand what you have written however knowing the MAP at the HVR when you take off will not tell you what the required MAP will be at the destination. A power check at the destination still only tells you how much poer you have available, this doesn't help you if the power required is MORE than the power available from your power check at the destination.
What you are talking about is note MAP at take off (departure) and then use some form of judgement if you go to a place that is hotter, higher and more humid given fuel burn en route etc. This is still some form of educated guess. Not a TOLD (Take off and landing Data) Card or a robust method for determing actual power required.
It fascinates me that some of the most underpowered aircraft available have no real method of reporting the Power required at the destination.
I agree with your comment about knowing your machine, however the reality of life is some times the lessons learnt with regards to power or not enough power result in hull losses and losses of life. Not a good way to learn a lesson!
Max
What you are talking about is note MAP at take off (departure) and then use some form of judgement if you go to a place that is hotter, higher and more humid given fuel burn en route etc. This is still some form of educated guess. Not a TOLD (Take off and landing Data) Card or a robust method for determing actual power required.
It fascinates me that some of the most underpowered aircraft available have no real method of reporting the Power required at the destination.
I agree with your comment about knowing your machine, however the reality of life is some times the lessons learnt with regards to power or not enough power result in hull losses and losses of life. Not a good way to learn a lesson!
Max
i4iq,
If you pursue you career in flying you will ultimately spend a lot of your time dealing with limits. The key is to know what the limits are...and find a way to stay on the safe side of those limits....and also accept that the limits vary greatly from day to day and place to place. We have our good days...and our not so good days in addition to all the other factors that determine how the aircraft performs.
As a famous movie character once said...."A man must know his own limits." Sometimes they are not the same as the other guy has...either for the good or for the worse. Just so long as you know what yours are....you will do okay.
If you pursue you career in flying you will ultimately spend a lot of your time dealing with limits. The key is to know what the limits are...and find a way to stay on the safe side of those limits....and also accept that the limits vary greatly from day to day and place to place. We have our good days...and our not so good days in addition to all the other factors that determine how the aircraft performs.
As a famous movie character once said...."A man must know his own limits." Sometimes they are not the same as the other guy has...either for the good or for the worse. Just so long as you know what yours are....you will do okay.
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bellfest
Hey Bellfest
I was not refering to you on the previous page however from reading your posts I now know you are a real idiot.
For a start you state that you have done plent of work like this work (geo survey)
Well you fool all of the mining companies that use helicopters in the north of Australia use turbines. (Rio, CRA, DeBeers etc)
Anyway I'm not going to deal with a fool like you on a topic like this.
BB
I was not refering to you on the previous page however from reading your posts I now know you are a real idiot.
For a start you state that you have done plent of work like this work (geo survey)
Well you fool all of the mining companies that use helicopters in the north of Australia use turbines. (Rio, CRA, DeBeers etc)
Anyway I'm not going to deal with a fool like you on a topic like this.
BB
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Anyone having a go at sasless has obviously not worked in the bush where the luxury of scales or people who know how to use them have, in my experience been unavailable. A guesstimate is all you usually have.Add this to clients who invariably will want to load the machine to the ceiling (despite the pilot telling them otherwise) & things can become very heavy very quickly.These everyday commercial pressures can be overwhelming for a new pilot in a new job in an unfamiliar machine. I am not speculating on what happened, just agreeing with sasless.
Firstly, sad news, condolences to the families and friends.
Secondly, seems to be a bit of terminology disagreement and assumption going on - the term 'overgross' implies trying to fly at a weight greater than the max all-up weight allowable for the type in any conditions.
Performance is a different story - depending on the type of approaches and departures you'll be attempting, you need to know what the machine is supposed to be capable of with respect to what you're going to ask it to do.
If you've got a fairly good estimate of the weight of gear and pax you're loading on the machine, and the altitude and temperature of where you're going, you can work out from the charts whether or not you can expect to hover OGE or IGE as the case may be, under those conditions, at that weight.
If you get there and it's hotter than predicted, you need to get back into the charts again before trying anything marginal. Good to have some 'fallback' calculations already done for that eventuality.
If you attempt to do something and you're too heavy for it, eg trying a vertical descent from OGE into a tight pad when you can't hover OGE, that's not flying 'overgross', but it's not going to work tidily either.
This is not to suggest anything about what may have happened in the crash in question - I've got my own opinion but it's speculation, so will keep my mouth shut.
Secondly, seems to be a bit of terminology disagreement and assumption going on - the term 'overgross' implies trying to fly at a weight greater than the max all-up weight allowable for the type in any conditions.
Performance is a different story - depending on the type of approaches and departures you'll be attempting, you need to know what the machine is supposed to be capable of with respect to what you're going to ask it to do.
If you've got a fairly good estimate of the weight of gear and pax you're loading on the machine, and the altitude and temperature of where you're going, you can work out from the charts whether or not you can expect to hover OGE or IGE as the case may be, under those conditions, at that weight.
If you get there and it's hotter than predicted, you need to get back into the charts again before trying anything marginal. Good to have some 'fallback' calculations already done for that eventuality.
If you attempt to do something and you're too heavy for it, eg trying a vertical descent from OGE into a tight pad when you can't hover OGE, that's not flying 'overgross', but it's not going to work tidily either.
This is not to suggest anything about what may have happened in the crash in question - I've got my own opinion but it's speculation, so will keep my mouth shut.
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A bit off thread but I remember a long, long time ago when flying Bell204 for a certain company they had a very simple system where by (dont recall the figures but you get the idea - think some piston people use the same concept from what I've heard on the grapevine) you fly straight and level at max climb speed and note Tq. Then pull to max power available (in the 204 it was the point at which the rotor started to bleed) and note Tq. The difference between the two Tq figures then told you what capability you had. If the figure was greater than X you could hover OGE, less than X but greater than Y you could hover IGE, and if less than Y it was a run on landing. Worked every time and so simple that I thought it an idea that ought to be adopted for all types. No requirement to indulge in maths and charts.
Arm,
Chuck the charts out the window buddy....tell us how you do a power available check and make a decision whether to try a landing or not when you are working at all sorts of elevation/temps/loads? You have to be able to make an informed decision....how do you...in real life make that informed decision? Enlighten us.
The charts are only a guide....and working for a living in the bush you don't have the luxury of knowing the weight of the aircraft or how yer Donk/blade performance works compared to the charts anyhow.
Chuck the charts out the window buddy....tell us how you do a power available check and make a decision whether to try a landing or not when you are working at all sorts of elevation/temps/loads? You have to be able to make an informed decision....how do you...in real life make that informed decision? Enlighten us.
The charts are only a guide....and working for a living in the bush you don't have the luxury of knowing the weight of the aircraft or how yer Donk/blade performance works compared to the charts anyhow.
Brian,
What is the coorelation between hover height, power required to hover IGE, Vbroc, and demonstrated rate of climb for the machine you fly now? You are on the path of rightousness with your suggestion...there are many paths that lead to salvation....can you figure out some more?
Arm....Brian gave you a huge tip....
What is the coorelation between hover height, power required to hover IGE, Vbroc, and demonstrated rate of climb for the machine you fly now? You are on the path of rightousness with your suggestion...there are many paths that lead to salvation....can you figure out some more?
Arm....Brian gave you a huge tip....
You chuck your charts out the window if you want mate, you must be able to use the force or something instead I suppose.
I know reasonably closely what my weight is from an estimate or weighing the stuff if possible, and it's not rocket science to read the OAT off the gauge and add a couple of degrees for cooling, or to estimate the temperature where I'm going to be going. Check the chart - should be able to do it.
The engine gets enough power checks to confirm it's up to spec, and I'll pull a power check too.
Arrivals - OGE - come to the hover well clear of obstacles, can I hover and is there a margin? Yes, good ,continue. No, find a bigger pad and go in IGE or don't do it.
Departures - OGE, try it and if it doesn't work, come back down.
IGE - nominate abort point, fly angled departure, not making the line by the abort point, abort.
205 for example - we used a MAT (minimum acceptable torque) chart, pulled a power check to confirm getting that or more, then looked at IGE or OGE charts and applied an appropriate margin for the type of approach being flown.
Thanks for the masterful tips.
I know reasonably closely what my weight is from an estimate or weighing the stuff if possible, and it's not rocket science to read the OAT off the gauge and add a couple of degrees for cooling, or to estimate the temperature where I'm going to be going. Check the chart - should be able to do it.
The engine gets enough power checks to confirm it's up to spec, and I'll pull a power check too.
Arrivals - OGE - come to the hover well clear of obstacles, can I hover and is there a margin? Yes, good ,continue. No, find a bigger pad and go in IGE or don't do it.
Departures - OGE, try it and if it doesn't work, come back down.
IGE - nominate abort point, fly angled departure, not making the line by the abort point, abort.
205 for example - we used a MAT (minimum acceptable torque) chart, pulled a power check to confirm getting that or more, then looked at IGE or OGE charts and applied an appropriate margin for the type of approach being flown.
Thanks for the masterful tips.
Gatvol
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Sasless and I have been to the same school. If it gets off the ground its flyable. It was also the same school that could write off helicopters as they had so many of them.. That was then and many of us pushed the envelope. We also did things knowing that if we were heavy we should do this or dont do that so as to make the situation any worse. This is not to say that one cannot run into problems with a B206, B412 etc. Its just that with what has been posted here its somewhat obvious that this flight was or should have been done a bit differently, experience probably played a factor.
What I said was based on what was posted before. Taking the Temp, an R44 with 4 pax (all 125# no doubt), fuel mentioned was Two hours, I certainly dont know, and I think Altitude may be in there somewhere. Being overgross is not a mortal sin for sure, but it does require things to be done differently.
Bellfest, your telling the pax what you can and cant do, is the experience factor which makes the flight safer....not dissing you.
What I said was based on what was posted before. Taking the Temp, an R44 with 4 pax (all 125# no doubt), fuel mentioned was Two hours, I certainly dont know, and I think Altitude may be in there somewhere. Being overgross is not a mortal sin for sure, but it does require things to be done differently.
Bellfest, your telling the pax what you can and cant do, is the experience factor which makes the flight safer....not dissing you.