Vic Police Air Wing On The Move?
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Time Bomb Ted
Fair enough.
If Headquarters sack the Chief Pilot, then doesn't the AOC also cease immediately. An "Acting" CP is not the same as a CASA approved one. Or has that been passed already by CASA?
TBT
If Headquarters sack the Chief Pilot, then doesn't the AOC also cease immediately. An "Acting" CP is not the same as a CASA approved one. Or has that been passed already by CASA?
TBT
VPAW does not receive any special treatment from CASA in these matters...
Cheers....
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah I thought that VPAW wouldn't get special treatment from CASA, so if they are still flying, then either they have recieved approval from CASA for the acting CP to take over, or the CP is still the CP in the eyes of CASA.
Acting CP still needs to act under a CP. That is why it is called acting isn't it? Well it was when I was one anyway. CP not acting CP that is.
Ok now even I'm confused.
TBT
Acting CP still needs to act under a CP. That is why it is called acting isn't it? Well it was when I was one anyway. CP not acting CP that is.
Ok now even I'm confused.
TBT
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to be confused, Time Bomb...
After receiving CP approval from CASA, an instrument is issued in the normal manner, specifying date, times or any other conditions....
That person then carries out the duties of CP....simple....
The word 'acting' is merely a reflection of internal staffing protocols, (vacancies, recruitments, interviews etc).
Cheers.....
After receiving CP approval from CASA, an instrument is issued in the normal manner, specifying date, times or any other conditions....
That person then carries out the duties of CP....simple....
The word 'acting' is merely a reflection of internal staffing protocols, (vacancies, recruitments, interviews etc).
Cheers.....
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So does the OC, whom I understand is a traffic cop, basically do the role of an Operations Manager?
I can see where some conflict would happen there.
Hypo Pathetically speaking of course:
OC: "Launch the helo ASAP, we have a villan on the loose in a stolen car."
CP:" But boss the weather is well below minimums and I consider it too dangerous."
OC: " Are you refusing a command from your immediate superior?"
CP: " Yes but it's not lawful for us to fly in these conditions nor is it safe for my crew."
OC: "I determine what is lawful, not you..."
To be continued...
If this is happening (and I'm not saying that it is.) then I'm sure CASA would want to know. The lessons from WA should be heeded.
I think VicPol Air wing have a very good reputation (not just because they carry guns) in the industry.
Keep up the good work. We could have used you guys up here yesterday afternoon. Bonnie and Clyde are back in Brisbane.. Woo Hoo.
TBT
I can see where some conflict would happen there.
Hypo Pathetically speaking of course:
OC: "Launch the helo ASAP, we have a villan on the loose in a stolen car."
CP:" But boss the weather is well below minimums and I consider it too dangerous."
OC: " Are you refusing a command from your immediate superior?"
CP: " Yes but it's not lawful for us to fly in these conditions nor is it safe for my crew."
OC: "I determine what is lawful, not you..."
To be continued...
If this is happening (and I'm not saying that it is.) then I'm sure CASA would want to know. The lessons from WA should be heeded.
I think VicPol Air wing have a very good reputation (not just because they carry guns) in the industry.
Keep up the good work. We could have used you guys up here yesterday afternoon. Bonnie and Clyde are back in Brisbane.. Woo Hoo.
TBT
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Melbourne/Australia
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, well
Delta Torque
I just spoke with a CASA FOI and asked this question.
Do CASA give Deputy Cheif pilot approvals.
The reply was NO.
I then asked that if I had been a cheif pilot before and on another AOC could I take up the role as cheif pilot.
The reply I got was you need to go threw the whole process again.
Now I am confussed.
BB
I just spoke with a CASA FOI and asked this question.
Do CASA give Deputy Cheif pilot approvals.
The reply was NO.
I then asked that if I had been a cheif pilot before and on another AOC could I take up the role as cheif pilot.
The reply I got was you need to go threw the whole process again.
Now I am confussed.
BB
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
?
Originally Posted by bladebanger
Delta Torque
I just spoke with a CASA FOI and asked this question.
Do CASA give Deputy Cheif pilot approvals.
The reply was NO.
I then asked that if I had been a cheif pilot before and on another AOC could I take up the role as cheif pilot.
The reply I got was you need to go threw the whole process again.
Now I am confussed.
BB
I just spoke with a CASA FOI and asked this question.
Do CASA give Deputy Cheif pilot approvals.
The reply was NO.
I then asked that if I had been a cheif pilot before and on another AOC could I take up the role as cheif pilot.
The reply I got was you need to go threw the whole process again.
Now I am confussed.
BB
You are the only one talking about Deputy Cheif (sic) pilots....
You shouldn't be confused...your CP instrument is AOC specific...
Cheers....
P.S. 'I' before 'E' except after 'C'
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Time Bomb Ted
So does the OC, whom I understand is a traffic cop, basically do the role of an Operations Manager?
I can see where some conflict would happen there.
Hypo Pathetically speaking of course:
OC: "Launch the helo ASAP, we have a villan on the loose in a stolen car."
CP:" But boss the weather is well below minimums and I consider it too dangerous."
OC: " Are you refusing a command from your immediate superior?"
CP: " Yes but it's not lawful for us to fly in these conditions nor is it safe for my crew."
OC: "I determine what is lawful, not you..."
To be continued...
If this is happening (and I'm not saying that it is.) then I'm sure CASA would want to know. The lessons from WA should be heeded.
I think VicPol Air wing have a very good reputation (not just because they carry guns) in the industry.
Keep up the good work. We could have used you guys up here yesterday afternoon. Bonnie and Clyde are back in Brisbane.. Woo Hoo.
TBT
I can see where some conflict would happen there.
Hypo Pathetically speaking of course:
OC: "Launch the helo ASAP, we have a villan on the loose in a stolen car."
CP:" But boss the weather is well below minimums and I consider it too dangerous."
OC: " Are you refusing a command from your immediate superior?"
CP: " Yes but it's not lawful for us to fly in these conditions nor is it safe for my crew."
OC: "I determine what is lawful, not you..."
To be continued...
If this is happening (and I'm not saying that it is.) then I'm sure CASA would want to know. The lessons from WA should be heeded.
I think VicPol Air wing have a very good reputation (not just because they carry guns) in the industry.
Keep up the good work. We could have used you guys up here yesterday afternoon. Bonnie and Clyde are back in Brisbane.. Woo Hoo.
TBT
Time Bomb...
Time for a Bex and a good lay down, I think..but I agree...the VPAW have a well deserved reputation in the industry...
Cheers....
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=Time Bomb Ted]So does the OC, whom I understand is a traffic cop, basically do the role of an Operations Manager?
Time Bomb,
I forgot to mention...I believe the Officer in Charge is an aviation savvy member with strong credentials, including Organised Crime, and Intel...He has lectured for Heli Pacific and others, both nationally and internationally...
And no...he doesn't do the role of an Operations Manager...the Operations Manager does that..
If you have a genuine interest in the VPAW orbat, give the lads a ring...they are on 24/7, and would be happy to fill you in......
Cheers....
Time Bomb,
I forgot to mention...I believe the Officer in Charge is an aviation savvy member with strong credentials, including Organised Crime, and Intel...He has lectured for Heli Pacific and others, both nationally and internationally...
And no...he doesn't do the role of an Operations Manager...the Operations Manager does that..
If you have a genuine interest in the VPAW orbat, give the lads a ring...they are on 24/7, and would be happy to fill you in......
Cheers....
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Outback
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TBT,
How does this situation compare to the WA ASU lessons ?
I think you will find that the pilot can refuse an order which is unlawful, which your Hypo Pathetical situation would be. A senior officer can't make you break the law. Common sense really.
How does this situation compare to the WA ASU lessons ?
I think you will find that the pilot can refuse an order which is unlawful, which your Hypo Pathetical situation would be. A senior officer can't make you break the law. Common sense really.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that Delta.
I've taken your advice and taken a Bex. Well I thought it was a Bex...
It was a white powder and came in a white piece of paper anyway.
Now all I have to do is get the Blue Elephants out of my garden before they tramp all over Mrs Ted's roses.
Hon, are you sure that was a Bex?.....
TBT
I've taken your advice and taken a Bex. Well I thought it was a Bex...
It was a white powder and came in a white piece of paper anyway.
Now all I have to do is get the Blue Elephants out of my garden before they tramp all over Mrs Ted's roses.
Hon, are you sure that was a Bex?.....
TBT
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place. Think of a happy place
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by blade root
TBT,
How does this situation compare to the WA ASU lessons ?
How does this situation compare to the WA ASU lessons ?
ATSB found in the WA POL ASU a number of problems including:
Deficiencies with the Air Support Units procedures, training, and supervision of aviation operational areas such as fuel planning, fuel management, and night flying operations; and
Deficiencies associated with the Air Support Units safety management program, and limitations of the Police Service guidance and oversight of that program.
Now I have a feeling VICPOL aren't in the same boat, however a dysfunctional organisation just doesn't happen overnight. I have and do work for people who have little or no experience in what I do and it has caused massive harm not only to us but unfortunate bystanders as well. I wouldn't wish for that to happen here.
TBT
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Outback
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TBT,
The only similarity in the two are that they are both Police operations.
As you say what happened to the WA ASU could happen to any flying organisation but only when the powers that be, have no idea about aviation.
The only similarity in the two are that they are both Police operations.
As you say what happened to the WA ASU could happen to any flying organisation but only when the powers that be, have no idea about aviation.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still stirring the pot Bell Ted? I think we have established that there has been no `backstabbing' here.....unless you include self immolation in your definitions of 'backstabbing'...
Back in your box!
P.S. (arss's).........I think that would be (arses')
Back in your box!
P.S. (arss's).........I think that would be (arses')
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sans frontieres
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Greetings all,
Not much fellowship in this thread lately. So, I'll take one of those fancy spirit drinks. Time to grab one of those corner booths and turn down the greyhound telecast.
[QUOTE=Delta Torque]Still stirring the pot Bell Ted? I think we have established that there has been no `backstabbing' here.....unless you include self immolation in your definitions of 'backstabbing'...
QUOTE]
I'm not sure we have defintively established that......but, as you say it, it must be right. I will accept your statement with a reservation that is, you may not be the expert you reckon you are.
MORE GENERALLY - I can't see that if a person goes on extended leave, has not been involved in any questionable behaviour, what suddenly makes it possible to remove that person from a legally appointed position. Bearing in mind that they have held performing apparently satisfactorily (albeit controversially), for a very long time?
What has changed that makes the appintment any less legitimate than it was five or ten years ago. Has he lost his skills to fly or failed to satisfy a CASA requirement? Has he breeched security or Cops regulations? Could any person then be removed from their appointed position without some process of tribunal or investigation?
Maybe if it is a management skills issue, then the people who appointed that person and gave support to his appointent should also be given an incompetence discipline, DCM.
Are there ramifications for the rest of us, who may go on leave expecting our career to be waiting upon our return?
I thought the award of a DCM was a result of some precipitating event.
DD
Not much fellowship in this thread lately. So, I'll take one of those fancy spirit drinks. Time to grab one of those corner booths and turn down the greyhound telecast.
[QUOTE=Delta Torque]Still stirring the pot Bell Ted? I think we have established that there has been no `backstabbing' here.....unless you include self immolation in your definitions of 'backstabbing'...
QUOTE]
I'm not sure we have defintively established that......but, as you say it, it must be right. I will accept your statement with a reservation that is, you may not be the expert you reckon you are.
MORE GENERALLY - I can't see that if a person goes on extended leave, has not been involved in any questionable behaviour, what suddenly makes it possible to remove that person from a legally appointed position. Bearing in mind that they have held performing apparently satisfactorily (albeit controversially), for a very long time?
What has changed that makes the appintment any less legitimate than it was five or ten years ago. Has he lost his skills to fly or failed to satisfy a CASA requirement? Has he breeched security or Cops regulations? Could any person then be removed from their appointed position without some process of tribunal or investigation?
Maybe if it is a management skills issue, then the people who appointed that person and gave support to his appointent should also be given an incompetence discipline, DCM.
Are there ramifications for the rest of us, who may go on leave expecting our career to be waiting upon our return?
I thought the award of a DCM was a result of some precipitating event.
DD
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Bahamas
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand your sense of outrage....but I think that this is a matter between the CP and his employer...and remember that a CP is only a CP at the pleasure of his employer... They can have anyone appointed, provided they meet CASA's requirements...
My point is, AB...don't blame the other guys for this current turn of events....they were just as surprised as you...
My point is, AB...don't blame the other guys for this current turn of events....they were just as surprised as you...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: In the boot
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey PO,
Aparently my source tells me that the CP's departure did not just occur because he was on leave and they (Police) decided to remove him because they felt like it....the animosity between the CP and the higher hierarchy has been brewing for some years and came to a head late last year as a result of something the CP had done to seriously upset the higher hierarchy (I mean as far up as you can get).
At the end of the day I guess we are all just teeth in a big cog...may lose a tooth here and there but the cog keeps turning, albeit a little bumby until its fixed again. A CP is not a demi-God in an organisation, at the end of the day (and this happens) if the CP and the AOC can't work together and there is no inproprietry by anyone then usually the CP moves on and is replaced by another suitable or maybe even better qualified CP hired by the AOC (who after all is the Boss) and approved by CASA.
That's life!
Aparently my source tells me that the CP's departure did not just occur because he was on leave and they (Police) decided to remove him because they felt like it....the animosity between the CP and the higher hierarchy has been brewing for some years and came to a head late last year as a result of something the CP had done to seriously upset the higher hierarchy (I mean as far up as you can get).
At the end of the day I guess we are all just teeth in a big cog...may lose a tooth here and there but the cog keeps turning, albeit a little bumby until its fixed again. A CP is not a demi-God in an organisation, at the end of the day (and this happens) if the CP and the AOC can't work together and there is no inproprietry by anyone then usually the CP moves on and is replaced by another suitable or maybe even better qualified CP hired by the AOC (who after all is the Boss) and approved by CASA.
That's life!
Last edited by rivnut; 20th Mar 2006 at 04:39.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sans frontieres
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep,
Thanks Rivnut et al.
I can accept all that. Maybe best to back out graciously at this juncture in the interest of mutual fairness. Thanks for the "reasonableness" of your explanantions.
Cheers,
DD
Thanks Rivnut et al.
I can accept all that. Maybe best to back out graciously at this juncture in the interest of mutual fairness. Thanks for the "reasonableness" of your explanantions.
Cheers,
DD