Private helicopter rescues lost children
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Originally Posted by SASless
Stan....
In case you missed it....this was on page one of this thread. The civilian pilot and the helicopter operator were not "unknown" to the Sheriff's Office. That part of California is not a very populated area as compared to down south in the state.
Gunsauls is an experienced pilot and has flown power line installations for PG&E, as well as marijuana eradication missions for the Sheriff's Office.
In case you missed it....this was on page one of this thread. The civilian pilot and the helicopter operator were not "unknown" to the Sheriff's Office. That part of California is not a very populated area as compared to down south in the state.
Gunsauls is an experienced pilot and has flown power line installations for PG&E, as well as marijuana eradication missions for the Sheriff's Office.
The point I was making was did the incident commander that night have specific knowledge at to exactly who the crew was & their capability to carry out a night operation in a very rural unpopulated area over very rugged terrain? Just because the PIC had done some daytime marijuana eradication in the past for the sheriffs department does not automatically qualify him for this much more demanding mission.
Like I said before, I think there needs to be a meet & confer to clear up any future misunderstanding as well as make the sheriffs department aware of the capabilities and services that the company has to offer. I think that is a better way to go rather that bashing any of those involved without having all the facts.
Stan,
I pray that is exactly what happens.
The press reports did not seem to indicate any "bad" feelings about the event. The SO and CHP ought to be flexible enough to look for any additional capability they need even if it means signing a Call When Needed (CWN contract) with private operators who could assist in the conduct of emergency operations either as the primary unit or as backup units when needed.
The maximum benefit to the community should be the guiding principle and not protecting turf as has happened in the past in other locales.
I am sure you are aware of the fire fighting turf wars in your state.
I pray that is exactly what happens.
The press reports did not seem to indicate any "bad" feelings about the event. The SO and CHP ought to be flexible enough to look for any additional capability they need even if it means signing a Call When Needed (CWN contract) with private operators who could assist in the conduct of emergency operations either as the primary unit or as backup units when needed.
The maximum benefit to the community should be the guiding principle and not protecting turf as has happened in the past in other locales.
I am sure you are aware of the fire fighting turf wars in your state.
Sasless I don't know how far up the management ladder you are or have been. What happened that night on face value and to the average guy in the street (including pilots) seems to make sense.
For every action, there is a reaction and people like you and myself do not have to work with or live throught the repercussions IF anything went wrong.
I'm surprised the yanks have even warranted such an activity since your nations motto is:if it moves...sue it!
Insurance / libel / damages / law suits is the real world these days and it is what happens AFTER the event turns very ugly. This event could so easily have turned very ugly very quickly and YOU have to stand back and look at the bigger picture.
It's no good heralding the tributes of a drug interdiction "experienced" pilot who knowingly operates outside limits (to boost his ego).
Maybe thats the problem. The US doesnt have NVG limits does it. Correct me if I'm wrong but anyone can buy an over the counter set of NVG's and go wazzing in rural areas in their private helo can they not?
Why then do you mention in another thread that you can't understand the reason for so many crashes in the (USA) EMS world. Possibly because the limits set by the FAA are too low.
This guy goes night flying on goggles and commences low level searches in hazardous terrain and then lands at an unidentified landing site upon which he commences some pussy footing manouevre to recover kids half on and half off the ground.
No wonder you guys are asking for it if you think this is "acceptable" and the perpetrator should be applauded for it
Next time this happens in the state next door, there will be a squadron of do gooders trying it on again....then your stats will start to climb again and you'll all go round saying:
"...don't understand, the guys were heroes...".
If you're going to do something, DO IT RIGHT
[PS: Sasless, I lied about chilling
]
For every action, there is a reaction and people like you and myself do not have to work with or live throught the repercussions IF anything went wrong.
I'm surprised the yanks have even warranted such an activity since your nations motto is:if it moves...sue it!
Insurance / libel / damages / law suits is the real world these days and it is what happens AFTER the event turns very ugly. This event could so easily have turned very ugly very quickly and YOU have to stand back and look at the bigger picture.
It's no good heralding the tributes of a drug interdiction "experienced" pilot who knowingly operates outside limits (to boost his ego).
Maybe thats the problem. The US doesnt have NVG limits does it. Correct me if I'm wrong but anyone can buy an over the counter set of NVG's and go wazzing in rural areas in their private helo can they not?
Why then do you mention in another thread that you can't understand the reason for so many crashes in the (USA) EMS world. Possibly because the limits set by the FAA are too low.
This guy goes night flying on goggles and commences low level searches in hazardous terrain and then lands at an unidentified landing site upon which he commences some pussy footing manouevre to recover kids half on and half off the ground.
No wonder you guys are asking for it if you think this is "acceptable" and the perpetrator should be applauded for it
Next time this happens in the state next door, there will be a squadron of do gooders trying it on again....then your stats will start to climb again and you'll all go round saying:
"...don't understand, the guys were heroes...".
If you're going to do something, DO IT RIGHT
[PS: Sasless, I lied about chilling
]
This event could so easily have turned very ugly very quickly and YOU have to stand back and look at the bigger picture.
It's no good heralding the tributes of a drug interdiction "experienced" pilot who knowingly operates outside limits (to boost his ego).
This guy goes night flying on goggles and commences low level searches in hazardous terrain and then lands at an unidentified landing site upon which he commences some pussy footing manouevre to recover kids half on and half off the ground.
No wonder you guys are asking for it if you think this is "acceptable" and the perpetrator should be applauded for it
No wonder you guys are asking for it if you think this is "acceptable" and the perpetrator should be applauded for it
If you're going to do something, DO IT RIGHT
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Thomas coupling
That's not how it looks to me. Some pilots would agree with you and most wouldn't but with two children missing and no law enforcement helo avilable there's no way the average guy in the street would think it makes sense to turn down the help of a private helicopter especially one flown by a professional pilot.
I know you'r a police pilot now but I don't know anything about your background. Were you in the army before? You always come over like you've done all your flying in a strictly controlled environment with rules and regs for everything. Many guys here have got years of experience flying difficult jobs all over the world where they gotta make decisions for themselves and think out of the box when there's a need. There's a whole world out there. The sort of jobs guys do in parts of America, Canada, Australia, Africa, New Zealand, PNG and so on don't fit into your tidy little box but the guys build up a whole lot of experience.
You're happy doing what you do, that's good, but your attitude to anyone who don't do things your way is silly and your comments about the guy who found and rescued the two children are disgusting.
He's got an ego?
Pots and kettles.
Ease up fella.
There's more to the helicopter world than flying around the hills of Northern Wales.
What happened that night on face value and to the average guy in the street (including pilots) seems to make sense.
I know you'r a police pilot now but I don't know anything about your background. Were you in the army before? You always come over like you've done all your flying in a strictly controlled environment with rules and regs for everything. Many guys here have got years of experience flying difficult jobs all over the world where they gotta make decisions for themselves and think out of the box when there's a need. There's a whole world out there. The sort of jobs guys do in parts of America, Canada, Australia, Africa, New Zealand, PNG and so on don't fit into your tidy little box but the guys build up a whole lot of experience.
You're happy doing what you do, that's good, but your attitude to anyone who don't do things your way is silly and your comments about the guy who found and rescued the two children are disgusting.
He's got an ego?
Pots and kettles.
Ease up fella.
There's more to the helicopter world than flying around the hills of Northern Wales.
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Originally Posted by SASless
I am sure you are aware of the fire fighting turf wars in your state.
Stan,
Don't fly EMS anymore so I don't get to watch many movies...good or bad. The wee fuss that occurred about the leased aircraft and whether the SO's would get some surplus Hueys....you remember that one don't you? It was all over the newspapers for months...private operators felt they could do a better job...Sheriff thought he could...the fire department thought fire fighting was their rice bowl. All brought on by the CDF refusing to launch a bird to dump some water on a tiny brush fire just before dark that later burned down half of California. You do remember that situation don't you?
Don't fly EMS anymore so I don't get to watch many movies...good or bad. The wee fuss that occurred about the leased aircraft and whether the SO's would get some surplus Hueys....you remember that one don't you? It was all over the newspapers for months...private operators felt they could do a better job...Sheriff thought he could...the fire department thought fire fighting was their rice bowl. All brought on by the CDF refusing to launch a bird to dump some water on a tiny brush fire just before dark that later burned down half of California. You do remember that situation don't you?
Bronx: Pay attention, listen up OK?
Read the post again - I stated that to the average person on the street, what eventually happened (there being a rescue by an unidentified helo picking them up) was the right thing to do, and made sense.....OK? Got it now.
Which leads me to point two: You are (like me) just another driver doing a run of the mill commercial helo job. You're not seeing the BIGGER picture are you? All you can think of is a local lad helping out and everything turns out fine? Can't you just think about it for 10 minutes?
People can't go round doing "their own thing" without any structure/co-ordination/pattern. Otherwise there would be no jurisdiction in any areas with fire/ambulance/police...even military. Joe public would turn up wouldn't they? They'd do it all.
Just for once....don't worry about my ego trip....think carefully about the repercussions when, next time it all goes wrong.......
Read the post again - I stated that to the average person on the street, what eventually happened (there being a rescue by an unidentified helo picking them up) was the right thing to do, and made sense.....OK? Got it now.
Which leads me to point two: You are (like me) just another driver doing a run of the mill commercial helo job. You're not seeing the BIGGER picture are you? All you can think of is a local lad helping out and everything turns out fine? Can't you just think about it for 10 minutes?
People can't go round doing "their own thing" without any structure/co-ordination/pattern. Otherwise there would be no jurisdiction in any areas with fire/ambulance/police...even military. Joe public would turn up wouldn't they? They'd do it all.
Just for once....don't worry about my ego trip....think carefully about the repercussions when, next time it all goes wrong.......
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TC,
What's your beef with Skywatch? Have got in the way of your operations in the past?
I hadn't heard much about them until reading this thread. On their website they say they were actually asked to help (in an observation role) by SAR at Kinloss. I think involving them in a thread about someone who actively took part in a rescue(against the wishes of the authorities?) is a little unfair.
FP.
What's your beef with Skywatch? Have got in the way of your operations in the past?
I hadn't heard much about them until reading this thread. On their website they say they were actually asked to help (in an observation role) by SAR at Kinloss. I think involving them in a thread about someone who actively took part in a rescue(against the wishes of the authorities?) is a little unfair.
FP.
I would think the Home Boys are now trying to figure out how to compete with the visitors now since the visitors had the equipment, ability, and Flexibility to pull off the rescue without any problems....the kinds of problems that prevented the Home Boys from making a try at it even.
Letsby,
Quite a few years ago...a Bristow S-76 crew pulled off a rig evacuation that earned them the Queens Medal and other awards. They were not SAR trained nor was the aircraft equipped for hoisting. They did a very superb bit of flying that night and rightfully earned their praise.
Would you suggest they were cowboys?
It was a split crew....one Brit...one American.
Quite a few years ago...a Bristow S-76 crew pulled off a rig evacuation that earned them the Queens Medal and other awards. They were not SAR trained nor was the aircraft equipped for hoisting. They did a very superb bit of flying that night and rightfully earned their praise.
Would you suggest they were cowboys?
It was a split crew....one Brit...one American.
Bloody hell Letsby...easy does it now!
SASless...give us a break, where is the comparison.
Was the Bristow S76 and crew just passing bye on their private flight, totally unprepared for what they were about to experience? Were they untrained offshore pilots? Did they intervene against the wishes of the co-ordinating authority?
I think not...I bet they were employees of the same oil company for which the rescue was taking place, they were fully trained offshore operators and they were current night overwater trained.
Apart from that, I can see the similarity in your comparisons Sassy....good one mate.
SASless...give us a break, where is the comparison.
Was the Bristow S76 and crew just passing bye on their private flight, totally unprepared for what they were about to experience? Were they untrained offshore pilots? Did they intervene against the wishes of the co-ordinating authority?
I think not...I bet they were employees of the same oil company for which the rescue was taking place, they were fully trained offshore operators and they were current night overwater trained.
Apart from that, I can see the similarity in your comparisons Sassy....good one mate.
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TC
You are in good company there. The Rt Hon Jim Hacker and the venerable Sir Humphrey Appleby would be so proud of your post. R u sure you didn't pen that episode where the hospital ran perfectly but for one omission - no patients? Bless your heart for reminding me of that very funny episode!
People can't go round doing "their own thing" without any structure/co-ordination/pattern
Totally Unprepared.....actually Yes!
Date:
14th November 1990.
Details:
The Shipwrecked Mariners' Society "Edwin and Maisie" Lewis Award to the 1989/1990 winners of the outstanding air sea rescue to two Bristow Helicopters crews whose courage and skill and determination saved 51 lives in a North Sea oil rig drama in November 1989.
In darkness on 8th November 1989 the oil rig "Interocean II" broke loose from its tow in the North Sea. From North Denes, near Great Yarmouth two Bristow helicopters flew out to the rig over vast seas and in 85 mph winds. Despite its vast bulk the rig was tossing like a cork. Defying the dangers of a landing platform that was heaving 25 ft up and down beneath flailing superstructure, the 2 helicopters made 5 increasingly dramatic touch downs to ferry all the oilmen to safety. Minutes later the rig capsized.
G-BJGX rescued 31 people in 3 trips - Captain Stuart Gregg and Co-pilot Mike Wood.
G-BISZ rescued 20 people in 2 trips - Captain Dale Moon and Co-pilot Roger Williams.
These crews also received the Queen's Award for Gallantry for this rescue.
14th November 1990.
Details:
The Shipwrecked Mariners' Society "Edwin and Maisie" Lewis Award to the 1989/1990 winners of the outstanding air sea rescue to two Bristow Helicopters crews whose courage and skill and determination saved 51 lives in a North Sea oil rig drama in November 1989.
In darkness on 8th November 1989 the oil rig "Interocean II" broke loose from its tow in the North Sea. From North Denes, near Great Yarmouth two Bristow helicopters flew out to the rig over vast seas and in 85 mph winds. Despite its vast bulk the rig was tossing like a cork. Defying the dangers of a landing platform that was heaving 25 ft up and down beneath flailing superstructure, the 2 helicopters made 5 increasingly dramatic touch downs to ferry all the oilmen to safety. Minutes later the rig capsized.
G-BJGX rescued 31 people in 3 trips - Captain Stuart Gregg and Co-pilot Mike Wood.
G-BISZ rescued 20 people in 2 trips - Captain Dale Moon and Co-pilot Roger Williams.
These crews also received the Queen's Award for Gallantry for this rescue.
These were not SAR aircraft, had no special equipment, no Winchman or Cabin Crew and had no special training for the task. The situation they encountered far exceeded what had been described or forecast. The rig was moving violently and greatly exceeded landing limitations. When Captains Gregg and Wood arrived for the final lift....the lights on the rig went out...thus they had to back onto the landing deck in the dark.
Except for being dispatched for one kind of flight and executing a very much different chore....the basic concept of "un-trained amateurs" doing a SAR job holds.
I know these guys....ordinary men who did a very extra-ordinary bit of flying that night. In my book these guys are Heroes. The Queen agreed as well.
An interesting side note TC...the Captain of the second aircraft is an American who has worked for Bristow for a great many years....and got a Gong from the Queen for this flight.
By the standards some have set here they would fall under the catagory of Cowboys.
Texaco sent a six sentence thank you letter and misspelled one of the pilot's names.
The owner of the rig never sent any kind of letter.
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I think this is a bit more simple that protcols, litigation, skills etc.
The problem, as I see it is this. The helicopter crew contacted the police and were refused permission to use the channel and were refused the coordinates of the search area. The message was clear from the police 'do not become involved in the search'. The pilot decided to ignore the instruction (albeit implicit rather than explicit) from the police.
They went ahead and rescued the kids and this made them heroes but had anything gone wrong they would have been in it up to their necks. In my opinion when the police say 'no' then its time to bow out and leave it to them.
IC
The problem, as I see it is this. The helicopter crew contacted the police and were refused permission to use the channel and were refused the coordinates of the search area. The message was clear from the police 'do not become involved in the search'. The pilot decided to ignore the instruction (albeit implicit rather than explicit) from the police.
They went ahead and rescued the kids and this made them heroes but had anything gone wrong they would have been in it up to their necks. In my opinion when the police say 'no' then its time to bow out and leave it to them.
IC
TC,
How you think they are so different?
Neither crew were SAR crews...actually none of the three were to be correct.
The weather conditions far exceeded OpsMan limits for the BHL crews.
The landing deck criteria did not meet any approved limits for the aircraft.
The crews had no special training for the task.
The crews were not Officially Sanctioned to do a "Rescue".
If anything would have happened....they would have been in an awful legal situation....the insurance carrier would have refused liability I am sure.
Why are the two events so "utterly" different?
How you think they are so different?
Neither crew were SAR crews...actually none of the three were to be correct.
The weather conditions far exceeded OpsMan limits for the BHL crews.
The landing deck criteria did not meet any approved limits for the aircraft.
The crews had no special training for the task.
The crews were not Officially Sanctioned to do a "Rescue".
If anything would have happened....they would have been in an awful legal situation....the insurance carrier would have refused liability I am sure.
Why are the two events so "utterly" different?
Sasless - I think you have taken this thread way off course with this N Sea rescue (these guys did well and deserved their awards and praise).
Back to the thread and I agree with TC that there was a huge potential for cock-up by these 'rescuers', they may well be very experienced NVG/SAR operators but power-line work and drug busting ops don't seem like good qualifications for the job.
I agree that they did the right thing in getting airborne to help the search; I agree that the local law enforcement were less than pro-active; I am particularly pleased that the 'rescuers' found the kids BUT - that is where they should have stopped - they should have called in the location to the ground troops and let them do their job.
There was a need to locate the kids, justifying getting airborne and ignoring the police. Once they had been located (uninjured and not in peril and only 1/2 mile from ground troops) the need to push the limits was negated. There was no need (apart from a perceived need to complete the 'mission') to attempt a tricky NVG landing and subsequent winching which put the helo, AND the KIDS, at far more risk than letting ground troops walk in and recover them.
This I believe is what TC is trying to get across - yes, by all means help when there is a need and no other immediate alternative but know when to stop - do it properly or not at all.
Back to the thread and I agree with TC that there was a huge potential for cock-up by these 'rescuers', they may well be very experienced NVG/SAR operators but power-line work and drug busting ops don't seem like good qualifications for the job.
I agree that they did the right thing in getting airborne to help the search; I agree that the local law enforcement were less than pro-active; I am particularly pleased that the 'rescuers' found the kids BUT - that is where they should have stopped - they should have called in the location to the ground troops and let them do their job.
There was a need to locate the kids, justifying getting airborne and ignoring the police. Once they had been located (uninjured and not in peril and only 1/2 mile from ground troops) the need to push the limits was negated. There was no need (apart from a perceived need to complete the 'mission') to attempt a tricky NVG landing and subsequent winching which put the helo, AND the KIDS, at far more risk than letting ground troops walk in and recover them.
This I believe is what TC is trying to get across - yes, by all means help when there is a need and no other immediate alternative but know when to stop - do it properly or not at all.