Private helicopter rescues lost children
Senis Semper Fidelis
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This might cause a few wrinckles in someones knickers, but if Joe public, with or without Helicopter tries to help any form of so called specialised Rescue services, and succeeds, with nothing but GUTS and DETERMINATION, oh and just a bit of his/or her own skill, then it makes US the other memebers of Joe Public, wonder why all these Emergencey services and specialised toys that they deffo need to be ready for all things or possibilitys seem a little Negative,
Dont ya Think
Vfr
BLOODY WELL DONE PRIVATEERS, the local Cops were worrying about the dark, Joe Public and his Copter did the JOB,,
GIVE HIM THE CONTRACT
Dont ya Think
Vfr
BLOODY WELL DONE PRIVATEERS, the local Cops were worrying about the dark, Joe Public and his Copter did the JOB,,
GIVE HIM THE CONTRACT
Well done to the guys from PJ's.
I think most of us would have done the same if we were in there place.
Think about the situation for a minute. You have a experienced pilot with local knowledge, Night vision capable by the sounds of it, and local Law enforcement dosn't have an Air asset available? AND the pilot has worked with the local cops before, so is a known quantity... what a load of toss.
The Sheriff could have come out of this with a nice PR coup, by telling all that, "thanks to excellent cooperation between a local helicopter company and the Sheriff's Dept, 2 children were rescued from" etc, etc... but no, they are worried about being shown up.
I think most of us would have done the same if we were in there place.
Think about the situation for a minute. You have a experienced pilot with local knowledge, Night vision capable by the sounds of it, and local Law enforcement dosn't have an Air asset available? AND the pilot has worked with the local cops before, so is a known quantity... what a load of toss.
The Sheriff could have come out of this with a nice PR coup, by telling all that, "thanks to excellent cooperation between a local helicopter company and the Sheriff's Dept, 2 children were rescued from" etc, etc... but no, they are worried about being shown up.
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I guess I'm in trouble too!
Going to work back in December we had a snow/ice storm, a large tree limb was blocking the main road out of town. A car in front of me was stopped, I got out and talked to the driver, she mention she had to get to the hospital as she worked in the operating room. She had an idea that if we snapped some some of the branches off near the tip of the limb then a car could pass. Well I did most of the snapping and we both got to work. I guess I overstepped my bounds but when I heard she needed to get to work in the OR room I knew what to do.
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I think it’s great though two kids got rescued. Perhaps if a regular guy with a bloodhound found them he would have been treated as a hero rather than an opportunist. Not many folks I know have 407’s or NVG, it sounds like the private owner has better equipment than law enforcement. When I heard of this story it reminded me of a sad case several years ago where a 10 year old boy disappeared after taking a short cut through the woods in New Hampshire. He got lost in the woods and died of exposure. To my knowledge no helicopters were used in the search. As for saying the ground searchers were close by is meaningless. Case in point, several years ago a boy scout got lost in the woods for several days, several times searchers on horseback came within close distance but the scout hid as his parents told him to avoid strangers (the times we live in).
I believe the trend will be more civilian helicopter owners and pilots will be stepping up to help out in situations like this. Military heli operations are being closed down because the assets have been deployed oversees or because of budget cuts. New operations may startup as non-profits and user older assets such as Alouette III or B206. A few such organizations already exist in the USA.
I believe the trend will be more civilian helicopter owners and pilots will be stepping up to help out in situations like this. Military heli operations are being closed down because the assets have been deployed oversees or because of budget cuts. New operations may startup as non-profits and user older assets such as Alouette III or B206. A few such organizations already exist in the USA.
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Oroville Mercury-Register report:
___________________________________________________________
Two days after her son and niece were rescued by helicopter, unhurt, from Butte Creek Canyon, Cherokee resident Beverly Boss said she still shook when she thought about what could have happened to them.
Boss' son, Austin Rogers, and his cousin Kovina Dennis, both 11, left the area near Pines Elementary School in Magalia about 4 p.m. Wednesday to explore hiking trails.
When the children didn't return to the Magalia home of Boss' sister, Cindy Woolridge, by 6 p.m., Boss called the Butte County Sheriff's Office.
Search and rescue volunteers began combing Butte Creek Canyon, between Magalia and Butte Creek. Meanwhile, Boss called her ex-husband, Michael Rogers, and the two took an ATV into the canyon to join the search.
Shortly after 11 p.m., a television news broadcast alerted Oroville resident Dan Kohrdt to the search for the children. He called pilot David Gunsauls in Red Bluff and had him fly Kohrdt's Bell 407 helicopter to Chico, where the two men met and took off for Magalia.
Gunsauls said it was clear that officials with the Butte County Sheriff's Office didn't want the helicopter to join the search and allegedly refused to give him the GPS coordinates for the search area.
Bad weather, and the lack of a pilot trained for night flying, had grounded the sheriff's helicopter, and a unit from the CHP.
Undaunted, Kohrdt and Gunsauls continued to search for the children, using a state-of-the-art night vision system, and tracing natural contours on the ground they thought the children might have followed.
They located them about 2:30 a.m. huddled together in a clearing on the north side of Butte Creek -- at least a half mile from where ground searchers were looking, south of the creek.
Gunsauls pulled off a tricky hovering maneuver to get the helicopter close enough for Kohrdt to pull the children into the craft. They were reunited minutes later with their families at Pines Elementary.
Boss said she is grateful beyond words that Kohrdt and Gunsauls intervened in the search.
"Between the weather turning bad and mountain lions, there's no telling what might have happened to them if the pilot hadn't found them," she said. At the time, she remembered being most concerned about the weather, which was turning colder. She said neither child was wearing a heavy coat.
Search and Rescue incident commander Mike Larish said it's likely the children would have spent at least several more hours lost in the canyon if the helicopter hadn't located them. Larish said the children were walking toward some lights, which would have taken them deeper into the canyon.
Boss said after their rescue, the children told her they would never explore that far from home again, and next time, Austin said he would take a compass along.
Boss said the children may have walked up to three miles from the school. She said Kovina fell asleep a couple of times during the night, and that both children lost track of how long they'd been missing. "When they were found, they thought it was about 10 p.m.," she said. Boss said the children had a plan for getting themselves out of trouble, but couldn't really do anything until daylight. She said they planned to walk back to Butte Creek, then follow it until they came to a house, or other place where they could call for help.
The two children reportedly clung close to each other so they wouldn't get separated in the dark. "It was pitch black in that canyon," Boss said. "The children said all they could see were Austin's tan pants and Kovina's white shoes.
At one time, the children told her, they tried to take shelter in a burrow, but it offered no protection from a light rain that started to fall.
The children related that they heard the helicopter fly close to them three times before it landed, but they thought they were hearing airplanes.
Boss said both Austin and Kovina are extremely bright and mature. Austin suffers from Asperger Syndrome -- a condition similar to autism -- which allows him to become very focused on a task and may have helped him in this circumstance, said Boss.
"I'm not sure what motivated these men to do what they did, but we can't thank them enough for it," Boss said.
___________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________
Two days after her son and niece were rescued by helicopter, unhurt, from Butte Creek Canyon, Cherokee resident Beverly Boss said she still shook when she thought about what could have happened to them.
Boss' son, Austin Rogers, and his cousin Kovina Dennis, both 11, left the area near Pines Elementary School in Magalia about 4 p.m. Wednesday to explore hiking trails.
When the children didn't return to the Magalia home of Boss' sister, Cindy Woolridge, by 6 p.m., Boss called the Butte County Sheriff's Office.
Search and rescue volunteers began combing Butte Creek Canyon, between Magalia and Butte Creek. Meanwhile, Boss called her ex-husband, Michael Rogers, and the two took an ATV into the canyon to join the search.
Shortly after 11 p.m., a television news broadcast alerted Oroville resident Dan Kohrdt to the search for the children. He called pilot David Gunsauls in Red Bluff and had him fly Kohrdt's Bell 407 helicopter to Chico, where the two men met and took off for Magalia.
Gunsauls said it was clear that officials with the Butte County Sheriff's Office didn't want the helicopter to join the search and allegedly refused to give him the GPS coordinates for the search area.
Bad weather, and the lack of a pilot trained for night flying, had grounded the sheriff's helicopter, and a unit from the CHP.
Undaunted, Kohrdt and Gunsauls continued to search for the children, using a state-of-the-art night vision system, and tracing natural contours on the ground they thought the children might have followed.
They located them about 2:30 a.m. huddled together in a clearing on the north side of Butte Creek -- at least a half mile from where ground searchers were looking, south of the creek.
Gunsauls pulled off a tricky hovering maneuver to get the helicopter close enough for Kohrdt to pull the children into the craft. They were reunited minutes later with their families at Pines Elementary.
Boss said she is grateful beyond words that Kohrdt and Gunsauls intervened in the search.
"Between the weather turning bad and mountain lions, there's no telling what might have happened to them if the pilot hadn't found them," she said. At the time, she remembered being most concerned about the weather, which was turning colder. She said neither child was wearing a heavy coat.
Search and Rescue incident commander Mike Larish said it's likely the children would have spent at least several more hours lost in the canyon if the helicopter hadn't located them. Larish said the children were walking toward some lights, which would have taken them deeper into the canyon.
Boss said after their rescue, the children told her they would never explore that far from home again, and next time, Austin said he would take a compass along.
Boss said the children may have walked up to three miles from the school. She said Kovina fell asleep a couple of times during the night, and that both children lost track of how long they'd been missing. "When they were found, they thought it was about 10 p.m.," she said. Boss said the children had a plan for getting themselves out of trouble, but couldn't really do anything until daylight. She said they planned to walk back to Butte Creek, then follow it until they came to a house, or other place where they could call for help.
The two children reportedly clung close to each other so they wouldn't get separated in the dark. "It was pitch black in that canyon," Boss said. "The children said all they could see were Austin's tan pants and Kovina's white shoes.
At one time, the children told her, they tried to take shelter in a burrow, but it offered no protection from a light rain that started to fall.
The children related that they heard the helicopter fly close to them three times before it landed, but they thought they were hearing airplanes.
Boss said both Austin and Kovina are extremely bright and mature. Austin suffers from Asperger Syndrome -- a condition similar to autism -- which allows him to become very focused on a task and may have helped him in this circumstance, said Boss.
"I'm not sure what motivated these men to do what they did, but we can't thank them enough for it," Boss said.
___________________________________________________________
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"Bad weather, and the lack of a pilot trained for night flying, had grounded the sheriff's helicopter, and a unit from the CHP."
Why is there no pilot with a night rating? Maybe this is the crux? Saving face seems a possible reason.
Speaking as an ex police chief pilot, I say "Good on the crew" for sticking with it.
Why is there no pilot with a night rating? Maybe this is the crux? Saving face seems a possible reason.
Speaking as an ex police chief pilot, I say "Good on the crew" for sticking with it.
Want to join the Butte County SO' s SAR Team?
http://www.buttesar.org/Pics-Helo.html
This takes you to the Butte County Sheriff's SAR Team Home page
N487BC is a Bell OH-58A helicopter/ US Army number 70-15107
From the pic it has a white light Night Sun light and does not appear to have FLIR of any kind. Without NVG's....I can understand them waiting till daylight. Even with NVG's...a search at night without FLIR would be limited in value but still of some worth using.
This takes you to the Butte County Sheriff's SAR Team Home page
N487BC is a Bell OH-58A helicopter/ US Army number 70-15107
From the pic it has a white light Night Sun light and does not appear to have FLIR of any kind. Without NVG's....I can understand them waiting till daylight. Even with NVG's...a search at night without FLIR would be limited in value but still of some worth using.
Last edited by SASless; 4th Feb 2006 at 21:32.
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"There is a federal law know as the good samaritan law which provides indemnity for persons offering help in these situations. There is no logical reason nor legal reason for the authorities not to accept the help of clearly qualified individuals. As a matter of fact, the mere fact that they turned down the help may actually put the department in legal jeopardy should have something awful happened to the children. What a shame that politics and small penis syndrome get in the way of people working together to try to achieve a positive result."
With you 100%. Sheriff Office was wrong. Glad the kids were OK.
With you 100%.
Sheriff Office was wrong. Glad the kids were OK.
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Originally Posted by SASless
Stan,
Police Agencies throughout the country use non-sworn volunteers, sworn volunteers, and other community assets for the conduct of searches and other activities. They all have insurance policies or self insure for that liability. There is nothing new about that....they in this case were doing that very thing but not with the helicopter and its crew.
I reiterate my earlier post....the SO got caught flat footed on this one. They had a very valuable community asset, of which they were well acquainted with from prior business contacts. The pilot had flown missions for the SO...probably in the very aircraft possibly. That might explain why the crew talked to the SO on the SO's own radio frequency.
They just had not prior planned and coordinated the relationship thus what happened......happened. The "rules" did not allow for any flexibility by the officer coordinating the operation.
Police Agencies throughout the country use non-sworn volunteers, sworn volunteers, and other community assets for the conduct of searches and other activities. They all have insurance policies or self insure for that liability. There is nothing new about that....they in this case were doing that very thing but not with the helicopter and its crew.
I reiterate my earlier post....the SO got caught flat footed on this one. They had a very valuable community asset, of which they were well acquainted with from prior business contacts. The pilot had flown missions for the SO...probably in the very aircraft possibly. That might explain why the crew talked to the SO on the SO's own radio frequency.
They just had not prior planned and coordinated the relationship thus what happened......happened. The "rules" did not allow for any flexibility by the officer coordinating the operation.
As for the comparison to Katrina, that was a natural disaster on a multi-state level. Not sure if it is even a valid comparison.
Last edited by Stan Switek; 5th Feb 2006 at 04:35.
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
"Bad weather, and the lack of a pilot trained for night flying, had grounded the sheriff's helicopter, and a unit from the CHP."
Why is there no pilot with a night rating? Maybe this is the crux? Saving face seems a possible reason.
Speaking as an ex police chief pilot, I say "Good on the crew" for sticking with it.
Why is there no pilot with a night rating? Maybe this is the crux? Saving face seems a possible reason.
Speaking as an ex police chief pilot, I say "Good on the crew" for sticking with it.
Stan,
I refer to a very common...."Father Knows best attitude" prevalent amongst the police agency/fire agency organizations in our country. We also have to remember the "political" aspects of all of this. As I said before twice now, I am of the opinion the SO is guilty of ignoring available assets "before" the event. I can understand to a point why they did what they did while the event was on-going....don't agree mind you....but still give them some leeway.
In the state of California, helicopters have become a part of a very great many fire departments and are almost invariably owned and operated by the county as a public use aircraft. The private sector is quite capable of providing those assets at a cheaper rate than the political units. The public owned aircraft in turn compete with the private sector for that kind of business which harms the private helicopter sector.
Consider the USFS and OAS use of contractor aircraft....so far it is mandated by law, just the opposite of what is happening with the States and County governments. The only reason private sector aircraft, pilots, and maintenance support staff are not used is the fact the public operations are paid for by Tax Money....and do not have to be operated in a cost effiecent manner.
An unusual indicator of the difference between the two concepts....in the State of Oregon, where state law requires public owned aircraft to operate to regular FAA Standards and not just to Public Use Standards....there are no state owned aircraft. They are all leased from private sector contractors.
Thus I suggest the private sector provides better equipment at a lower cost than do government run operations using taxpayer money dollar for dollar.
I refer to a very common...."Father Knows best attitude" prevalent amongst the police agency/fire agency organizations in our country. We also have to remember the "political" aspects of all of this. As I said before twice now, I am of the opinion the SO is guilty of ignoring available assets "before" the event. I can understand to a point why they did what they did while the event was on-going....don't agree mind you....but still give them some leeway.
In the state of California, helicopters have become a part of a very great many fire departments and are almost invariably owned and operated by the county as a public use aircraft. The private sector is quite capable of providing those assets at a cheaper rate than the political units. The public owned aircraft in turn compete with the private sector for that kind of business which harms the private helicopter sector.
Consider the USFS and OAS use of contractor aircraft....so far it is mandated by law, just the opposite of what is happening with the States and County governments. The only reason private sector aircraft, pilots, and maintenance support staff are not used is the fact the public operations are paid for by Tax Money....and do not have to be operated in a cost effiecent manner.
An unusual indicator of the difference between the two concepts....in the State of Oregon, where state law requires public owned aircraft to operate to regular FAA Standards and not just to Public Use Standards....there are no state owned aircraft. They are all leased from private sector contractors.
Thus I suggest the private sector provides better equipment at a lower cost than do government run operations using taxpayer money dollar for dollar.
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Sas,
I understand what you are saying but I think you are straying off the topic. I suspect the factors you cited were not involved in the incident commanders decision to decline the initial offer of air support by a private operator. I suspect a supervisor concerned may have made the decision, rightly or wrongly with liability. said supervisor has to act in a manner consistent with the expectations of his agency, not how they do things in another state.
Good Samaritan statues do not exempt an agency from liability. For the sake of discussion, the incident commander gives the aircrew permission to assist, they fly into this extremely dark area & the ship goes down. It is very likely there will be litigation & some liability on the part of the public agency. Most public agencies are self-insured so any judgment comes out of the general fund for that city or county.
On the other hand, the agency declines the offer of assistance. There is some sort of accident involving the company & aircraft that was denied permission to assist. Liability to the public agency is minimal if any. I don’t know that was that case but to me that seems like a more plausible that some of the other explanations about being embarrassed, saving face ect.
There was also a comment about a public agency being sued for not doing enough to locate the kids. Under existing case law the chances of winning a judgment are non-existent. This may sound harsh but existing case law says law enforcement has no duty to protect an individual. (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197.
Think about it, if there was such a duty, victims could sue every time they were victimized. That is not the case. As bad as it sounds, if law enforcement had of packed it up for the night & went home, there would have been no liability on their part. I know that sounds terrible but that is the law. The reality is no public agency is going to do such a thing, I hope.
Re Good Samaritan Laws, there is no protection from gross negligence. http://www.swc.cc.ca.us/~kjacobs/goodsam.htm
Just my thought on why the offer of assistance was declined. Again, I commend the aircrew for doing the right thing.
I understand what you are saying but I think you are straying off the topic. I suspect the factors you cited were not involved in the incident commanders decision to decline the initial offer of air support by a private operator. I suspect a supervisor concerned may have made the decision, rightly or wrongly with liability. said supervisor has to act in a manner consistent with the expectations of his agency, not how they do things in another state.
Good Samaritan statues do not exempt an agency from liability. For the sake of discussion, the incident commander gives the aircrew permission to assist, they fly into this extremely dark area & the ship goes down. It is very likely there will be litigation & some liability on the part of the public agency. Most public agencies are self-insured so any judgment comes out of the general fund for that city or county.
On the other hand, the agency declines the offer of assistance. There is some sort of accident involving the company & aircraft that was denied permission to assist. Liability to the public agency is minimal if any. I don’t know that was that case but to me that seems like a more plausible that some of the other explanations about being embarrassed, saving face ect.
There was also a comment about a public agency being sued for not doing enough to locate the kids. Under existing case law the chances of winning a judgment are non-existent. This may sound harsh but existing case law says law enforcement has no duty to protect an individual. (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197.
Think about it, if there was such a duty, victims could sue every time they were victimized. That is not the case. As bad as it sounds, if law enforcement had of packed it up for the night & went home, there would have been no liability on their part. I know that sounds terrible but that is the law. The reality is no public agency is going to do such a thing, I hope.
Re Good Samaritan Laws, there is no protection from gross negligence. http://www.swc.cc.ca.us/~kjacobs/goodsam.htm
Just my thought on why the offer of assistance was declined. Again, I commend the aircrew for doing the right thing.
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Davidson does not address the issue of a public agency actively forbidding an asset being deployed which can clearly be shown to provide relief and does not interfere with the agency carrying out its duties.
Further, a well trained aircrew with an asset more properly equipped than that of the Agency seems to me to be a tough case of gross negligence.
The problem is that we actually need to debate this stuff and try to make excuses for the incident commander. By doing so we simply give the next person an excuse for a bad decision.
Further, a well trained aircrew with an asset more properly equipped than that of the Agency seems to me to be a tough case of gross negligence.
The problem is that we actually need to debate this stuff and try to make excuses for the incident commander. By doing so we simply give the next person an excuse for a bad decision.
Pete Cunha, a local California Highway Patrol pilot contacted by the newspaper, also said rescuers should have left the task to experts. "It's not a game for amateurs," said Cunha. CHP has a couple of FLIR equipped Eurocopter 350B3’s but won't fly them in rough terrain at night. He said the authorities have to keep control of these types of operations (even if they can't or won't participate in them). "If we allowed this kind of thing to continue, for instance, could you imagine the onslaught of good-minded people wanting to become involved in uncontrolled situations?" he said, likening the incident to volunteers with hunting rifles showing up at a police standoff wanting to help. "We simply could not have that."
Seems to me the "Experts" did the job and the Amateurs sat out the night.
I wonder if they were running up and down I-5 looking for speeding truckers or something? One must have priorities you know.
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Pete is an idiot. Comparing a well equipped, well trained crew of a 407 with a bunch volunteers with hunting rifles is asinine. We should all pray Pete does not ever reproduce.
Diet...
There is your typical Chippie attitude for you!
He is setting there with his coffee and doughnuts watching Telly....and some mere civilian helicopter pilot pulls off a rescue in the middle of the night....I don't blame him for being testy.
He could have asked why his department did not equip and train him to do similar work...after all...that is why they are out there, right? To serve and protect is the motto isn't it?
What he is really miffed over probably is the fact the guys continued after being told to bugger off....refusing to obey a police officer can be a mortal sin in California.
There is your typical Chippie attitude for you!
He is setting there with his coffee and doughnuts watching Telly....and some mere civilian helicopter pilot pulls off a rescue in the middle of the night....I don't blame him for being testy.
He could have asked why his department did not equip and train him to do similar work...after all...that is why they are out there, right? To serve and protect is the motto isn't it?
What he is really miffed over probably is the fact the guys continued after being told to bugger off....refusing to obey a police officer can be a mortal sin in California.
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Originally Posted by diethelm
Davidson does not address the issue of a public agency actively forbidding an asset being deployed which can clearly be shown to provide relief and does not interfere with the agency carrying out its duties.
Further, a well trained aircrew with an asset more properly equipped than that of the Agency seems to me to be a tough case of gross negligence.
The problem is that we actually need to debate this stuff and try to make excuses for the incident commander. By doing so we simply give the next person an excuse for a bad decision.
Further, a well trained aircrew with an asset more properly equipped than that of the Agency seems to me to be a tough case of gross negligence.
The problem is that we actually need to debate this stuff and try to make excuses for the incident commander. By doing so we simply give the next person an excuse for a bad decision.
Botton line is things worked out for the best & the kids are safe & well. And yes, I bet the CHP continued to hammer people for speeding on the I-5. I think what bends me out of shape is that CHP didnt at least mount up, fly to the area (weather permitting), survey the scene & make a determination if the search was within their capability. The fact they didnt even try irks me.
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Originally Posted by diethelm
Pete is an idiot. Comparing a well equipped, well trained crew of a 407 with a bunch volunteers with hunting rifles is asinine. We should all pray Pete does not ever reproduce.
If you do not know the capabilities and qualifications of those offering assistance, do you blindly allow them to become involved & become potential victims themselves while at the same time subjecting your employer/tax payers to substantial liability? It seems this could be better handled in the future by the parties meeting to confer & drafting some type of memorandum of understanding for future instances.
Stan....
In case you missed it....this was on page one of this thread. The civilian pilot and the helicopter operator were not "unknown" to the Sheriff's Office. That part of California is not a very populated area as compared to down south in the state.
Gunsauls is an experienced pilot and has flown power line installations for PG&E, as well as marijuana eradication missions for the Sheriff's Office.
In case you missed it....this was on page one of this thread. The civilian pilot and the helicopter operator were not "unknown" to the Sheriff's Office. That part of California is not a very populated area as compared to down south in the state.
Gunsauls is an experienced pilot and has flown power line installations for PG&E, as well as marijuana eradication missions for the Sheriff's Office.