External Load / Longline Training (Merged Threads)
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I'm not sure 'anyone who can hover can long line' is accepted by most of the industry.
I've just finished working on an immigration case about long lining - at least 'production' long lining involving repeated lifts of things like drill rigs or loads from ships where speed is paramount.
The consensus of opinion seems to be that between 3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots. The main problem seems to be getting someone trained in the first place.
Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!
I've just finished working on an immigration case about long lining - at least 'production' long lining involving repeated lifts of things like drill rigs or loads from ships where speed is paramount.
The consensus of opinion seems to be that between 3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots. The main problem seems to be getting someone trained in the first place.
Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!
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Yes, my statement is a gross over simplification! But…we are not talking “from zero to hero” here…are we? Maybe I’m missing the point! I’m not saying that you become a longline production pilot immediately after attending an external load course or something similar. What I am saying is that everybody who has the basic skills to hover a helicopter can - after putting some effort into it - fly external loads. How good, precise and productive you’ll be certainly depends on how much effort you put into it and how talented you are. There are some exceptionally talented longline pilots, a whole lot of average guys and certainly a few guys who should better be doing something else but long-lining out there.
And I completely agree with you Fun Police, if a company scores a job and wants a non-longline pilot to do it, the company should work out a deal with the customer or train that pilot within the company. THAT of course reduces the companies profit and we all know what that means!
Indeed…”Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!”
Shawn:
“3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots.” I’m curious how that number came up? I really don’t want to offend anybody here, I’m just curious!!!
And…I still believe that you can achieve almost anything you want in this industry! You can start out on an R22 and become a Captain on a S76 - screaming down an ILS approach or fly a Skycrane - pulling logs off the hill or anything else you can imagine.
It’s just a function of how much hard work and training you put into it. That, combined with a little bit being at the right place at the right time makes a lot possible.
The Sky is the Limit. The only limits you will have are the ones that you place on yourself!
Back to the original post now! Where and how does “The Flashing Blade“ get his longline training? Where and how did all those “old” experienced pilots like “FunPolice” gain their longline skills? We all started somewhere and nobody entered the industry with thousands of hours production longline experience. All of us had to work long and hard to get there!
I was lucky that the company I worked for at the time just told me to go out and practice a bit before they sent me on my first “non-production” job!
And I completely agree with you Fun Police, if a company scores a job and wants a non-longline pilot to do it, the company should work out a deal with the customer or train that pilot within the company. THAT of course reduces the companies profit and we all know what that means!
Indeed…”Another fascinating piece of the rotary wing aviation world!”
Shawn:
“3 to 5% of pilots can make good long-line production pilots.” I’m curious how that number came up? I really don’t want to offend anybody here, I’m just curious!!!
And…I still believe that you can achieve almost anything you want in this industry! You can start out on an R22 and become a Captain on a S76 - screaming down an ILS approach or fly a Skycrane - pulling logs off the hill or anything else you can imagine.
It’s just a function of how much hard work and training you put into it. That, combined with a little bit being at the right place at the right time makes a lot possible.
The Sky is the Limit. The only limits you will have are the ones that you place on yourself!
Back to the original post now! Where and how does “The Flashing Blade“ get his longline training? Where and how did all those “old” experienced pilots like “FunPolice” gain their longline skills? We all started somewhere and nobody entered the industry with thousands of hours production longline experience. All of us had to work long and hard to get there!
I was lucky that the company I worked for at the time just told me to go out and practice a bit before they sent me on my first “non-production” job!
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as long as we are all agreeing here, i too would like to know where the 3-5% figure was derived. it seems a little low to me.
H70, i meant no disrespect with my comments to your post and i am certainly no longline god, but i have done enough and seen some guys/gals who were better than me and have also seen some who just couldn't grasp it.
as far as the original post goes, i stand by the idea that if the flashing blade has been honest with a potential employer (and i have no reason to doubt that he has) about his experience level and abilities at specialized tasks then if he is hired by said employer, then the company should invest in training him to a level of competency that is appropriate for what is expected of their operation. for him to go out and purchase time in a/c in order to gain experience in such a specialized field would be a waste of money.
thanks for listening
FP
H70, i meant no disrespect with my comments to your post and i am certainly no longline god, but i have done enough and seen some guys/gals who were better than me and have also seen some who just couldn't grasp it.
as far as the original post goes, i stand by the idea that if the flashing blade has been honest with a potential employer (and i have no reason to doubt that he has) about his experience level and abilities at specialized tasks then if he is hired by said employer, then the company should invest in training him to a level of competency that is appropriate for what is expected of their operation. for him to go out and purchase time in a/c in order to gain experience in such a specialized field would be a waste of money.
thanks for listening
FP
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The 3 to 5% figure came from discussions with long line pilots and from senior managers who used long line pilots. I was quite surprised at how low the number was.
I know a lot of pilots which became never as good as requested in the long line business.
It's not only the finger trouble, it's the business at once. May be the fear in the dead mans area, no understanding of the other (ground) parts in long lining, sometimes with 10 minutes fuel, bad mental coordination, the massive financial pressure, or the direct customer contact?
In fact after some decades in the job i believe it's easier to become a good IR pilot than with real longlines (>120ft)
On the other side i know some real artists with the line. Impressive to see some calm guys especially if they have a good smoke between the tooths under the biggest pressure steering a long line.
It's not only the finger trouble, it's the business at once. May be the fear in the dead mans area, no understanding of the other (ground) parts in long lining, sometimes with 10 minutes fuel, bad mental coordination, the massive financial pressure, or the direct customer contact?
In fact after some decades in the job i believe it's easier to become a good IR pilot than with real longlines (>120ft)
On the other side i know some real artists with the line. Impressive to see some calm guys especially if they have a good smoke between the tooths under the biggest pressure steering a long line.
Last edited by tecpilot; 20th Dec 2007 at 07:36.
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Some of our brethren at a different forum have been talking about the same thing.
Los Angeles Helicopters was mentioned as having a 141/133 training course for longline. Don't know much else, but maybe worth a look.
Los Angeles Helicopters was mentioned as having a 141/133 training course for longline. Don't know much else, but maybe worth a look.
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longline training
hi guys!
is sombody out there to give me a hind how can i get some study materials of VR and long line training ??
basic or advanced any help would be great
thanks all you guys!!!!
is sombody out there to give me a hind how can i get some study materials of VR and long line training ??
basic or advanced any help would be great
thanks all you guys!!!!
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hey there. Check out SRT Helicopters. They specialize in every sort of training. They are based in Bakersfield, California!
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Go north young man...
I received fantastic longline training from Chinook Helicopters in Abbotsford BC Canada. My instructor flew the SK64 Air Crane and did the instructing on his time off. Nothing like learning from a high time pilot that is VERY current!
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LA Helicopters at Long Beach California do an FAA/Industry approved Long Line /VR course taught by a very high time long line pilot who apart from being LAH's chief pilot also works for Columbia Helicopters as a long line pilot.
You can find out more about the course on YouTube, search los angeles helicopters long line.
Chester
You can find out more about the course on YouTube, search los angeles helicopters long line.
Chester
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Vertical Reference Flying
Have you thought about the instructor coming to you? I have taught many young folks the fine art of vertical reference flying. I have taught this skill in various parts of the world and could be available to assist you in your quest. I have a full training syllabus and program.
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longline ( and VR ) training
I know NotHomeMuch has already mentioned LA Helicopters ( Los Angeles Helicopters ) but this may give you more background as not only do they provide long line training ( http://www.lahelicopters.com/press/f...te-part133.htm ) they also have support of some of the worlds heavy lift companies and show a letter from Columbia saying they will look to LAH for candidates. ( Columbia Helicopters commends Los Angeles Helicopters )
I attended their course last year and thought you may want to see what a less than 300 hour pilot can achieve from a good, no from a great course by LAH... , sorry for the self indulgence... it's me in the video.
For those that want to see more, check out this one;
Hope that helped
I attended their course last year and thought you may want to see what a less than 300 hour pilot can achieve from a good, no from a great course by LAH... , sorry for the self indulgence... it's me in the video.
For those that want to see more, check out this one;
Hope that helped
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longline training?
Hey. 2 questions. I understand that longlining is a dangerous and requires a lot of skill.
1. Can you train yourself legally in the United States?
2. I would be interested in someone that has long lined the R44.
1. Can you train yourself legally in the United States?
2. I would be interested in someone that has long lined the R44.
Hey. 2 questions. I understand that longlining is a dangerous and requires a lot of skill.
1. Can you train yourself legally in the United States?
1. Can you train yourself legally in the United States?
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C77,
I don't believe that you could legally train yourself to do longline. Since you have to attach a cable to your helicopter to do so, I believe that you would fall into the area that would require you to have a 133 certificate. Just my .02.
I did my training in a R44. Didn't like it. The T-bar made it difficult to know where the cyclic really was. Remember much of the controls are done by feel backed up by what you are seeing. At least that is the way it worked for me and from what my instructor told me. As you become more familiar and comfortable with it, easier it becomes.
I don't believe that you could legally train yourself to do longline. Since you have to attach a cable to your helicopter to do so, I believe that you would fall into the area that would require you to have a 133 certificate. Just my .02.
I did my training in a R44. Didn't like it. The T-bar made it difficult to know where the cyclic really was. Remember much of the controls are done by feel backed up by what you are seeing. At least that is the way it worked for me and from what my instructor told me. As you become more familiar and comfortable with it, easier it becomes.
I don't believe that you could legally train yourself to do longline. Since you have to attach a cable to your helicopter to do so, I believe that you would fall into the area that would require you to have a 133 certificate. Just my .02.
The aircraft needs to have a hook attached by means of an STC, but there is nothing preventing you from flying with a line attached, as long as it is not for compensation or hire.
Someone mentioned that Bristow offers long line training---they can legally do it and yet they no longer hold a 133 certificate, and have not since 1998 I believe.
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C77,
about 10 years ago, there was a good article by Helicopters Magazine, which has since gone the way of the dodo, but the gist was that if you have an a/c and a willing friend (it would help if he/she knew how to longline) you could basically learn given enough time and pointers. i relate to you what i remember with the caveat that i did not write the acticle and accept no responsibility if you choose to try this.
step one was without a line, do circuits to a certain height, depending on how long a line you want to start with (50' 100' 150' etc), paying attention to flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. while in the hover at these heights try to look straight down while maintaining a steady hover. do some pedal turns and height variations, too, to see how things change when you are looking down. the next step would be strap on a line, then get your helper to hold the empty end and walk you around while alternating looking down at 45 degrees and straight down (to get used to looking down while maintaining more reference). aim to keep the LL vertical. after you get comfortable with this, try to do cicuits with an empty line paying attention to applicable flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. after this put on a light load (heavy enough to be realistic) while paying attention to the RFM supps etc etc.
once you get to this point it is just a matter of practice.
this is by no means meant to be a replacement for any training or courses that you choose to engage in but it helped me when i started out. also, i know nothing about the 44 but if you are comfortable in the machine, then it is a logical starting point because it is tough to learn how to fly a new machine and learn how to longline at the same time. ask me how i know.
i can say that the astar would not be a very good LL training platform simply because the visibility is the pits.
regards
FP
beforee i forget, make sure your helper wears appropriate protective gear (hardhat, gloves etc) and also make sure you LL is long enough to put you clear of any obstacles once you are advanced enough to start trying to practice in the trees etc.
about 10 years ago, there was a good article by Helicopters Magazine, which has since gone the way of the dodo, but the gist was that if you have an a/c and a willing friend (it would help if he/she knew how to longline) you could basically learn given enough time and pointers. i relate to you what i remember with the caveat that i did not write the acticle and accept no responsibility if you choose to try this.
step one was without a line, do circuits to a certain height, depending on how long a line you want to start with (50' 100' 150' etc), paying attention to flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. while in the hover at these heights try to look straight down while maintaining a steady hover. do some pedal turns and height variations, too, to see how things change when you are looking down. the next step would be strap on a line, then get your helper to hold the empty end and walk you around while alternating looking down at 45 degrees and straight down (to get used to looking down while maintaining more reference). aim to keep the LL vertical. after you get comfortable with this, try to do cicuits with an empty line paying attention to applicable flight manual supplements regarding external load ops/restrictions. after this put on a light load (heavy enough to be realistic) while paying attention to the RFM supps etc etc.
once you get to this point it is just a matter of practice.
this is by no means meant to be a replacement for any training or courses that you choose to engage in but it helped me when i started out. also, i know nothing about the 44 but if you are comfortable in the machine, then it is a logical starting point because it is tough to learn how to fly a new machine and learn how to longline at the same time. ask me how i know.
i can say that the astar would not be a very good LL training platform simply because the visibility is the pits.
regards
FP
beforee i forget, make sure your helper wears appropriate protective gear (hardhat, gloves etc) and also make sure you LL is long enough to put you clear of any obstacles once you are advanced enough to start trying to practice in the trees etc.