BBC filming guide & BBC criticised for using ENG helicopters too often (merged)
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Flyerh said "I believe that the company they gave the job was approved but could not do it on the day,so they sub contracted it out to a non approved company."
The Beeb contacted me about this job originally. They wanted to fly Titchmarsh up to the top of Helvellyn in the Lake District, drop him off on the summit (really) and then fly around the summit filming him before heading off to Carlisle, Hadrian's wall etc.
If you have seen Helvellyn, you will know that it is not JetRanger country, so I passed on names of suitable AS355 operators. Next thing I read about the Hadrians wall crash - in a 206. Apparantly the Lakes were in cloud on the day, so that bit of the job was canned (fortunately).
The operator concerned has been filming for the Beeb since the year dot, so I would be most surprised if they weren't on the Beeb approved list.
They asked me to do it. I told them to use a twin. Somebody knew better and it went ahead with a single. Maybe not in itself the cause of the accident but was it a case of budget over safety??
The Beeb contacted me about this job originally. They wanted to fly Titchmarsh up to the top of Helvellyn in the Lake District, drop him off on the summit (really) and then fly around the summit filming him before heading off to Carlisle, Hadrian's wall etc.
If you have seen Helvellyn, you will know that it is not JetRanger country, so I passed on names of suitable AS355 operators. Next thing I read about the Hadrians wall crash - in a 206. Apparantly the Lakes were in cloud on the day, so that bit of the job was canned (fortunately).
The operator concerned has been filming for the Beeb since the year dot, so I would be most surprised if they weren't on the Beeb approved list.
They asked me to do it. I told them to use a twin. Somebody knew better and it went ahead with a single. Maybe not in itself the cause of the accident but was it a case of budget over safety??
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"By the way nose mounts are extremely limited and only work on particular shots like following a car"
Nonsense. As has been said, with the correct flying and camera angle combined, you can shoot perfectly happily "out the back". I did a shot for a BBC production of a tape recorder sitting in a field, pulling out to a wide shot of half of Surrey. The flight was conducted with doors on, making a perfectly safe forwards departure, and was done in one take - though being on tape we could afford a second run just for the hell of it. No skids, no LTE, no accident. I've done doors-off stuff too, and know which I'd rather do.....
Nonsense. As has been said, with the correct flying and camera angle combined, you can shoot perfectly happily "out the back". I did a shot for a BBC production of a tape recorder sitting in a field, pulling out to a wide shot of half of Surrey. The flight was conducted with doors on, making a perfectly safe forwards departure, and was done in one take - though being on tape we could afford a second run just for the hell of it. No skids, no LTE, no accident. I've done doors-off stuff too, and know which I'd rather do.....
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"Yes HD is now on it's way but as far as hollywood is concerned,look at how many jobs will be lost if they drop 35mm."
It's happening. There are already mutiplex "cinemas" where you are actually watching a video projector image. No celluloid. It's dead. It's over. Bean counters win again!
I'm in favour - HD will open up the movie market for many suppliers. Heli businesses should be v happy.
It's happening. There are already mutiplex "cinemas" where you are actually watching a video projector image. No celluloid. It's dead. It's over. Bean counters win again!
I'm in favour - HD will open up the movie market for many suppliers. Heli businesses should be v happy.
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Nose mounts are limited for many reasons the main ones are tilt only and very limited lens ajustment when in flight.
The number of times a production company has insisted on a nose mount and not achieved exactly what they require I have lost count.
Any kind of wind and you will get movement in the shot which most of them don't want or have to take it out in post which cost a fortune.
You can create most nose mount shots by cross controlling with a side mount depending on the speed required.
I'm not saying nose mounts are useless there are certain shots where I would put them forward over any other mount.
Not jetranger country????????.
What was I doing, filming for an American Feature in Snowdonia?
Yes I am all for HD have been for years,but talk to most directors and DOP's and you will get an hour long lecture on the why nots.
The number of times a production company has insisted on a nose mount and not achieved exactly what they require I have lost count.
Any kind of wind and you will get movement in the shot which most of them don't want or have to take it out in post which cost a fortune.
You can create most nose mount shots by cross controlling with a side mount depending on the speed required.
I'm not saying nose mounts are useless there are certain shots where I would put them forward over any other mount.
Not jetranger country????????.
What was I doing, filming for an American Feature in Snowdonia?
Yes I am all for HD have been for years,but talk to most directors and DOP's and you will get an hour long lecture on the why nots.
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flyerh: "Nose mounts are limited for many reasons the main ones are tilt only and very limited lens ajustment when in flight."
I think your experience seems limited to a basic non-gyro Tyler. FLIR UMs, Cineflex, Gyron and others all offer +20 - -80 tilt at least, combined with a full 360 azimuth.
And your comments about wind disturbance are way off. The whole point of a gyro mount is that it can cope with aerodynamic shock as well as whatever the heli throws at it.
On our Cineflex we have full camera and lens control whilst flying - again I think your experience is based on basic Tyler.
"You can create most nose mount shots by cross controlling with a side mount depending on the speed required." Which is where this all started - cross-controlling a B206, downwind and slow. And bang!
BTW: check your charts. I think you'll find that Snowdon is quite some way south of the Lake District. Still, maybe the Americans didn't notice
I think your experience seems limited to a basic non-gyro Tyler. FLIR UMs, Cineflex, Gyron and others all offer +20 - -80 tilt at least, combined with a full 360 azimuth.
And your comments about wind disturbance are way off. The whole point of a gyro mount is that it can cope with aerodynamic shock as well as whatever the heli throws at it.
On our Cineflex we have full camera and lens control whilst flying - again I think your experience is based on basic Tyler.
"You can create most nose mount shots by cross controlling with a side mount depending on the speed required." Which is where this all started - cross-controlling a B206, downwind and slow. And bang!
BTW: check your charts. I think you'll find that Snowdon is quite some way south of the Lake District. Still, maybe the Americans didn't notice
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flyerh: sorry, but a lot of what you have stated just isn't true. I've just noticed in one of your earlier posts : "The BBC have made ground on having an approved list but only for full BBC productions."
This is rubbish. I assume you are trying to distinguish between in-house productions and those made for the BBC by an independent. In Health & Safety, there is no difference. The same rules apply - everyone is required to consult the pre-vetted BBC supplier list. Anyone working directly for the BBC or for an independent on behalf of the BBC must only use helicopters from the approved list.
How do you get approved ? A production has to request that your company is pre-vetted - and this generally entails a day-long inspection conducted by the BBC's aviation safety consultant - who is a retired CAA bod.
This is rubbish. I assume you are trying to distinguish between in-house productions and those made for the BBC by an independent. In Health & Safety, there is no difference. The same rules apply - everyone is required to consult the pre-vetted BBC supplier list. Anyone working directly for the BBC or for an independent on behalf of the BBC must only use helicopters from the approved list.
How do you get approved ? A production has to request that your company is pre-vetted - and this generally entails a day-long inspection conducted by the BBC's aviation safety consultant - who is a retired CAA bod.
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What did you think I was talking about,a nose mount is a nose mount not a gyro flir or wastcam mount.
''must have limited experience of gyro mounts,''I'm guessing here but probably done 150 jobs with ultra mediaII maybe more.
BBC jobs ,lost count!
My first filming job,never forget it Burgerac 1980,with non gyro side mount.
Lets not get into a bun fight on this one boys!
Outside companies having to tow the line on BBC approved list,spoke to them last week NO THEY DO NOT according to the BBC.
For political reasons ie have a good relationship with the company concerned who produced the program,a well known BBC food program with aerials shot with Non AOC idividual,private cat piston and flown by PPL(h) with non approved mount FACT!
If you can't fly cross controling a jetranger safely when filming then don't give up the day job.
After all the unfounded abuse I'm entitled to one bun at least.
I spent the day with the head of the BBC H&S a few years ago on a 999 shootwe covered alot of issues them and thankfully they are getting through.
Keep up the filming boys,might see you on a credit one day,you never know.
''must have limited experience of gyro mounts,''I'm guessing here but probably done 150 jobs with ultra mediaII maybe more.
BBC jobs ,lost count!
My first filming job,never forget it Burgerac 1980,with non gyro side mount.
Lets not get into a bun fight on this one boys!
Outside companies having to tow the line on BBC approved list,spoke to them last week NO THEY DO NOT according to the BBC.
For political reasons ie have a good relationship with the company concerned who produced the program,a well known BBC food program with aerials shot with Non AOC idividual,private cat piston and flown by PPL(h) with non approved mount FACT!
If you can't fly cross controling a jetranger safely when filming then don't give up the day job.
After all the unfounded abuse I'm entitled to one bun at least.
I spent the day with the head of the BBC H&S a few years ago on a 999 shootwe covered alot of issues them and thankfully they are getting through.
Keep up the filming boys,might see you on a credit one day,you never know.
BBC filming guide & BBC criticised for using ENG helicopters too often (merged)
There was a clip on this morning's BBC Newswatch program about the increased use of helicopters by the BBC recently and this apparent 'waste' of licence-payers money.
A text version of the article can be found here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs...00/4605678.stm
How does this compare to other countries? ENG is obviously far more prevalent in the USA. But why? Cost? Single/Twin? More TV channels?
A text version of the article can be found here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ukfs...00/4605678.stm
How does this compare to other countries? ENG is obviously far more prevalent in the USA. But why? Cost? Single/Twin? More TV channels?
Scalextric for Men
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
Do some not credit the BBC with brains?
Expressions like Over all picture
Contrast and compare the monies involved, putting a football match in the corner of your viewing room.
I would rather have more good quality pictures with an unseen university educated presenter, reading their text.
Expressions like Over all picture
Contrast and compare the monies involved, putting a football match in the corner of your viewing room.
I would rather have more good quality pictures with an unseen university educated presenter, reading their text.
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
David Cameron took a "carbon neutral" journey! Wow, I had a donut and took a carbon-rich dump!
I thought American Congressmen had cornered the prize, but I was wrong....
I thought American Congressmen had cornered the prize, but I was wrong....
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
It would appear to me the complaint is falsely stated. License buyers are customers and not share holders in the firm. As a share holder one would have a valid reason for being concerned.
Gatvol
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
Lets See BBC is a news gathering organization.. ENG Helicopters gather news......
I must be missing something........
I must be missing something........
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
I'm one of a couple of pilots that fly one of the stations in Vegas. From what i have seen flying ENG over here is that you have 3 or 4 news stations competing against each other for the viewers and whos the best news station. Local companies pay for some of the cost through advertising but if the chopper flys for too long the station gets all cranky about cost.
I'm English so i know what the UK TV land is like. The Beeb don't have any other news company to compete with except ITV ( if thats what it is still called ) plus the Beeb are not a commercial station so no advertising money coming in. I would assume that the cost would have been comng out of the TV license fund, but i could be very wrong on that. They're running a twin so they can fly over the London area ( i gather that is the rule back home) where as we fly singles so the cost will be lower ( we're flying a 206B3 ).
I was supprised to hear that the UK were using helos for ENG as not much really happens over there to need a live aerial link, but i have been away from Blighty for a while now so i guess things have changed, although chasing a guy on a bike using a chopper sure makes you wonder whos footing the bill for that one....could have used a double decker bus and got the same affect for 50 pence... give or take bob or two.
I'm English so i know what the UK TV land is like. The Beeb don't have any other news company to compete with except ITV ( if thats what it is still called ) plus the Beeb are not a commercial station so no advertising money coming in. I would assume that the cost would have been comng out of the TV license fund, but i could be very wrong on that. They're running a twin so they can fly over the London area ( i gather that is the rule back home) where as we fly singles so the cost will be lower ( we're flying a 206B3 ).
I was supprised to hear that the UK were using helos for ENG as not much really happens over there to need a live aerial link, but i have been away from Blighty for a while now so i guess things have changed, although chasing a guy on a bike using a chopper sure makes you wonder whos footing the bill for that one....could have used a double decker bus and got the same affect for 50 pence... give or take bob or two.
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
Now as far as I know the BEEB use www.G-PIXX.TV which is a R44 which is dirt cheap compared to ITN's AS355. Though I do not know if ITN still own the AS355 because my information on the AS355 is 10 years old at which point they were selling it because of under usage.
Where as ever since the R44 came on scene it has been flying non stop due to it's cheap rates. Newsnight had one R44 on hire 24/7 durng the recent elections.
I stand to be corrected.
I am happy for my Licence money to be used in this way because the pictures it gave us during BUNCEFIELD were awesome to coin a phrase.
Where as ever since the R44 came on scene it has been flying non stop due to it's cheap rates. Newsnight had one R44 on hire 24/7 durng the recent elections.
I stand to be corrected.
I am happy for my Licence money to be used in this way because the pictures it gave us during BUNCEFIELD were awesome to coin a phrase.
Hovering AND talking
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
The BBC use a number of operators for aerial work; the news producers have their preferred operators as do Outside Broadcast.
Consequently, depending on the nature of the coverage, they could be using G-PIXX, or a Twin Squirrel. Sporting events are often televised using a Jet Ranger, A Bolkow 105, Twin Squirrel and occassionally an Agusta 109. It depends on availability, location as well as cost.
Surely, if the producers think that it is news-worthy television why should anyone on Rotorheads complain - must be more work for someone out there eh?
Cheers
Whirls
Consequently, depending on the nature of the coverage, they could be using G-PIXX, or a Twin Squirrel. Sporting events are often televised using a Jet Ranger, A Bolkow 105, Twin Squirrel and occassionally an Agusta 109. It depends on availability, location as well as cost.
Surely, if the producers think that it is news-worthy television why should anyone on Rotorheads complain - must be more work for someone out there eh?
Cheers
Whirls
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
God Bless you folks miss the point! You are actually answering what you think the question was, and missing David Cameron's real agenda.
Last edited by NickLappos; 24th Jan 2006 at 19:10.
Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
Whirls,
I'm not sure if anyone on Rotorheads is actually complaining about the Beeb using ENG helis. The only complainants were the various random 'licence-payers/whiners' that the Newswatch team dug up.
I posted the article because it was a heli-related story that had appeared on national UK TV.
If anything, I was just wondering why BBC News (as opposed to the Beeb in general) don't use helis more often. Is it solely down to cost? Or a culture issue? Or maybe there just isn't the demand....
Or maybe, like HOVERJOCKI says, there just isn't the competition in the marketplace to merit it.
I'm not sure if anyone on Rotorheads is actually complaining about the Beeb using ENG helis. The only complainants were the various random 'licence-payers/whiners' that the Newswatch team dug up.
I posted the article because it was a heli-related story that had appeared on national UK TV.
If anything, I was just wondering why BBC News (as opposed to the Beeb in general) don't use helis more often. Is it solely down to cost? Or a culture issue? Or maybe there just isn't the demand....
Or maybe, like HOVERJOCKI says, there just isn't the competition in the marketplace to merit it.
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Re: BBC under fire for using ENG helicopters too often
My wife and I have a game where we 'spot' gratuitous use of helicopters in the media. Beats most of the other crap they put on. Proper entertainment. Keep it up.