Flight safety, too much ?
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Flight safety, too much ?
Hello Rotorheads!
I've been thinking about lifejackets and helmets alot lately. Or the fact that I haven't been using any for the first 95h of my flying life.
Let me give you an example of my imagination:
I'm up one lovely sunny winterday flying. To get to the place I wanna land I have to make a 5 min cross over an forest without any fields to autorotate down to. But there are few lakes.
But hey, the odds are on my side right, the machine feels good...After a few minutes the engine stops. I have two options; autorotate into the trees and fall 15meters straight down and rely on good luck to prevent backinjuries, or pick the shoreline of the small lake that is close by and autorotate to that place.
I would take my chances with the lake. And then, oooops, maybe the
lifejacket wasn't such a bad idea after all, even inland.
If you go by the "textbook", should I pick the shore ?
After thinking about this scenario for a few days I've decided to ALWAYS take the extra 20 seconds to take on a lifejacket.
So what's the problem? Well ... a lot of fellow pilots seem to think it's a bit stupid to take on a lifejacket in a R22 unless you are planning to make a very long crossing of water. They also happen to be the same ppl that think it's strange of me to wear a helmet in such a small helicopter. I disagree, 'cause if the pilots flying multiengine superpumas with thousands of TT are wearing helmets, shouldnt a PPL guy flyging a fragile R22 have even more need for one ?
Am I thinking to much about this "safety stuff" or what? I kinda stick out with the helmet and the lifejacket ...
RotorSwede
I've been thinking about lifejackets and helmets alot lately. Or the fact that I haven't been using any for the first 95h of my flying life.
Let me give you an example of my imagination:
I'm up one lovely sunny winterday flying. To get to the place I wanna land I have to make a 5 min cross over an forest without any fields to autorotate down to. But there are few lakes.
But hey, the odds are on my side right, the machine feels good...After a few minutes the engine stops. I have two options; autorotate into the trees and fall 15meters straight down and rely on good luck to prevent backinjuries, or pick the shoreline of the small lake that is close by and autorotate to that place.
I would take my chances with the lake. And then, oooops, maybe the
lifejacket wasn't such a bad idea after all, even inland.
If you go by the "textbook", should I pick the shore ?
After thinking about this scenario for a few days I've decided to ALWAYS take the extra 20 seconds to take on a lifejacket.
So what's the problem? Well ... a lot of fellow pilots seem to think it's a bit stupid to take on a lifejacket in a R22 unless you are planning to make a very long crossing of water. They also happen to be the same ppl that think it's strange of me to wear a helmet in such a small helicopter. I disagree, 'cause if the pilots flying multiengine superpumas with thousands of TT are wearing helmets, shouldnt a PPL guy flyging a fragile R22 have even more need for one ?
Am I thinking to much about this "safety stuff" or what? I kinda stick out with the helmet and the lifejacket ...
RotorSwede
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Hi, RotorSwede,
Don't agree with that, in the event of an emergency, any size heli is quite capable of banging you around the head. As for lifejackets, if you do spend a lot of your time flying over hostile terrain, and there are precious few clearings you can get into, then a lake-shore could be your best option, and not everyone gets the auto spot on!!
Most people haven't reached the stage of being old and bold without, occasionally, thinking of the risks and how best to attempt to eliminate or alleviate them.
safe flying.
strange of me to wear a helmet in such a small helicopter.
Most people haven't reached the stage of being old and bold without, occasionally, thinking of the risks and how best to attempt to eliminate or alleviate them.
safe flying.
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
RotorSwede,
My understanding of the reason behind wearing helmets, is that it is primarily for protection in an accident (similar to a motorbike helmet) and incase of bird strikes and wire strikes.
I believe that with the Army here it is a requirement to wear a helmet, and with some companies it is company policy to wear one.
I did read somewhere that the majority of birds fly in the first 400ft (don't know how much truth there is in that) so if you spend a lot of time at 400ft and below, then I would say it is a pretty good idea!
I don't understand the metality of people who take the mickey out of others who want to protect themselves, it is your choice, and I for one respect that.
Also, our Puma guys don't wear helmets.
My understanding of the reason behind wearing helmets, is that it is primarily for protection in an accident (similar to a motorbike helmet) and incase of bird strikes and wire strikes.
I believe that with the Army here it is a requirement to wear a helmet, and with some companies it is company policy to wear one.
I did read somewhere that the majority of birds fly in the first 400ft (don't know how much truth there is in that) so if you spend a lot of time at 400ft and below, then I would say it is a pretty good idea!
I don't understand the metality of people who take the mickey out of others who want to protect themselves, it is your choice, and I for one respect that.
Also, our Puma guys don't wear helmets.
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
My thoughts on this are . . .
Fly with whatever YOU feel comfortable, when thinking about safety don't compare what you are doing with what the next guy is doing, especially if he is doing less than what YOU feel comfortable with.
If it gives you an extra peace of mind to wear a vest, then wear it. If you want to wear a helmet then wear it, I have never even tried a helmet on. And even then, we are humans and our way of thinking is different.
I remember one day having a huge argument with another pilot, as we were ready to cross the Sea of Cortez, it meant 2 hours over water, no rafts, a whole city without electricity waiting for us, he had 8,000 hours over water I had no meaningful amount of time overwater, he said in 20 years, of flying over water he'd never had the slightest hiccup, I said I didn't care, there was always a first time.
Factors we were in a pristine, HUMS equipped Bell 412, the water was warm, the sea was calm, went right over 100's of boats on the way, and it was only a 2 hour flight what could happen????? My way of thinking was a different one, but even today I realize that if put there again I might have done differently.
Fly with whatever YOU feel comfortable, when thinking about safety don't compare what you are doing with what the next guy is doing, especially if he is doing less than what YOU feel comfortable with.
If it gives you an extra peace of mind to wear a vest, then wear it. If you want to wear a helmet then wear it, I have never even tried a helmet on. And even then, we are humans and our way of thinking is different.
I remember one day having a huge argument with another pilot, as we were ready to cross the Sea of Cortez, it meant 2 hours over water, no rafts, a whole city without electricity waiting for us, he had 8,000 hours over water I had no meaningful amount of time overwater, he said in 20 years, of flying over water he'd never had the slightest hiccup, I said I didn't care, there was always a first time.
Factors we were in a pristine, HUMS equipped Bell 412, the water was warm, the sea was calm, went right over 100's of boats on the way, and it was only a 2 hour flight what could happen????? My way of thinking was a different one, but even today I realize that if put there again I might have done differently.
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
BP,
Please to recall..."Somedays one gets the Bear...and somedays the Bear gets you!"
Bobbin' in the Oggin with only a life jacket gets pretty cold after the Sun sets...and as I recall there are things called HammerHeads that migrate about that area if I am not mistaken. Is you lifejacket a single or double bladder affair?
On the other side of the coin...I was once dispatched to fetch a life raft off of an oil platform. It was one of those huge Fiberglass container deals that has seats for crowds. It was just before dark....and we were told to load it into the cabin of the 212.
Thinking of what would happen if it were to unilaterally come to life mid-flight...I politely offered to sling the thing but refused to haul it internally. Mildly put....I quickly found myself in a tiff with the Managing Pilot who had promised to pull the customer's training department's Chestnuts out of the fire...they having forgotten to bring the thing ashore earlier for the next day's training exercise.
After much harrangue....a training captain bowed to the MP and fetched the thing back internally. He now looks over others shoulders from on high in the bureaucracy.
Risk avoidance and good commonsense don't coincide sometimes. As one gets older....one finds erring on the safe side much easier on the nerves.
Please to recall..."Somedays one gets the Bear...and somedays the Bear gets you!"
Bobbin' in the Oggin with only a life jacket gets pretty cold after the Sun sets...and as I recall there are things called HammerHeads that migrate about that area if I am not mistaken. Is you lifejacket a single or double bladder affair?
On the other side of the coin...I was once dispatched to fetch a life raft off of an oil platform. It was one of those huge Fiberglass container deals that has seats for crowds. It was just before dark....and we were told to load it into the cabin of the 212.
Thinking of what would happen if it were to unilaterally come to life mid-flight...I politely offered to sling the thing but refused to haul it internally. Mildly put....I quickly found myself in a tiff with the Managing Pilot who had promised to pull the customer's training department's Chestnuts out of the fire...they having forgotten to bring the thing ashore earlier for the next day's training exercise.
After much harrangue....a training captain bowed to the MP and fetched the thing back internally. He now looks over others shoulders from on high in the bureaucracy.
Risk avoidance and good commonsense don't coincide sometimes. As one gets older....one finds erring on the safe side much easier on the nerves.
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
You are mistaken many of us in the big machines are not allowed wear helmets because if we did the pax would all want them... Safety coulture as long as it's not too expensive!
Lunar
Lunar
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Helmets..everytime. The smallest forced landing where the helo remains upright and in one piece could involve high G braking during the landing sufficient to smack your head into the nearest hard sharp object. What a shame you had serious head injuries because it was unfashionable to wear a helmet???
I went to a helo missing task many years ago (Canada). Found the cab sitting upright burning and turning with the pilot sitting upright in his seat apparently unscathed. A closer look showed he had been violently flung fwd and smashed his forehead on the cowling and died from the injury. No helmet other than a talking headset.
Lifejacket: The good thing about a lifejacket is that, not only does it do what it says on the cover! But you can stash all sorts of goodies into it for whatever reason:
Mirror / radio / food / GPS / chain saw
One can never be too safe
I went to a helo missing task many years ago (Canada). Found the cab sitting upright burning and turning with the pilot sitting upright in his seat apparently unscathed. A closer look showed he had been violently flung fwd and smashed his forehead on the cowling and died from the injury. No helmet other than a talking headset.
Lifejacket: The good thing about a lifejacket is that, not only does it do what it says on the cover! But you can stash all sorts of goodies into it for whatever reason:
Mirror / radio / food / GPS / chain saw
One can never be too safe
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Anecdotal, but definitely read an accident report years back where some guy on a ground run got resonance and rolled, first point of impact for his head was the AH caging knob, which popped his skull and killed him. I'm sure he thought he would only take 2 minutes to spin it up, and a helmet was the furthest thing from his thoughts.
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Caged his gyros did it?
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
RotorSwede
As others have said on this thread. Don't let other people get to you, all forms of safety enhancement are useless unless you make proper use of them.
Another possible benefit from wearing a helmet, besides protecting your cranium in the event of an accident, is that helmets generally provide improved protection from the noise which we all know and love so much!!
You may also want to consider increasing the height at which you cross forests such that you have more time to plan your auto. If, as you mention, there are lakes nearby, then the extra height should enable you to plan your auto to make the shoreline, or as close as possible to it if there is no real space to land. In the latter case, that lifejacket would come in useful.
As others have said on this thread. Don't let other people get to you, all forms of safety enhancement are useless unless you make proper use of them.
Another possible benefit from wearing a helmet, besides protecting your cranium in the event of an accident, is that helmets generally provide improved protection from the noise which we all know and love so much!!
You may also want to consider increasing the height at which you cross forests such that you have more time to plan your auto. If, as you mention, there are lakes nearby, then the extra height should enable you to plan your auto to make the shoreline, or as close as possible to it if there is no real space to land. In the latter case, that lifejacket would come in useful.
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Can't believe I'd ever back up Thomas Coupling...But here I go !
Wear the electric hat if you got one...anyone arguing against it, is just p*ssed off because it's not company policy for them...
Don't know if you remember when mandatory seatbelt use came in, but for a couple of years after, many of us fought it,unfamiliar and felt goofy...... until they increased the penalty for not wearing one...
5 years ago I was doing a gig in Thailand, and the crew bus was a Suzuki 4WD...No seatbelts installed...worse thing about the gig, was getting to the helo in the morning, thru Thai traffic without a seatbelt. It was a race to get in the back seat every morning, no-one wanted that front seat without a seatbelt....Perceptions change with time and exposure...
Regarding the vest, it's hard to argue against it,but would prefer a raft as well...
But, there again, I did float around the Atlantic coast of Spain in 1999 after my sailboat decided it'd had enough ...Floated around late springtime wearing a t-shirt and jeans because I couldn't get to the emergency bag and had been snoozing prior to the fire...
I spent only 2.5 hours (late afternoon) in the water, treading same, thinking constantly about sharks...This was relatively warm water, after the rescue, (boat) it took 3 days to feel really warm...
Everythings perceptual, I personally never fly without nomex gloves and a helmet..Why?...The way I was taught! end of story....
Anyone claiming helmets are not necessary might as well argue that seatbelts are not necessary in automobiles....Just an opinion!
Wear the electric hat if you got one...anyone arguing against it, is just p*ssed off because it's not company policy for them...
Don't know if you remember when mandatory seatbelt use came in, but for a couple of years after, many of us fought it,unfamiliar and felt goofy...... until they increased the penalty for not wearing one...
5 years ago I was doing a gig in Thailand, and the crew bus was a Suzuki 4WD...No seatbelts installed...worse thing about the gig, was getting to the helo in the morning, thru Thai traffic without a seatbelt. It was a race to get in the back seat every morning, no-one wanted that front seat without a seatbelt....Perceptions change with time and exposure...
Regarding the vest, it's hard to argue against it,but would prefer a raft as well...
But, there again, I did float around the Atlantic coast of Spain in 1999 after my sailboat decided it'd had enough ...Floated around late springtime wearing a t-shirt and jeans because I couldn't get to the emergency bag and had been snoozing prior to the fire...
I spent only 2.5 hours (late afternoon) in the water, treading same, thinking constantly about sharks...This was relatively warm water, after the rescue, (boat) it took 3 days to feel really warm...
Everythings perceptual, I personally never fly without nomex gloves and a helmet..Why?...The way I was taught! end of story....
Anyone claiming helmets are not necessary might as well argue that seatbelts are not necessary in automobiles....Just an opinion!
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Not forgetting that it makes your pilot stories more convincing in the bar, if you are still wearing your helmet...
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
The smallest forced landing where the helo remains upright and in one piece could involve high G braking
Si
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
http://www.rafael.co.il/web/rafnew/news/news-141205.htm
Best regards.
Aser
Originally Posted by Simon853
Has there ever been any research into fitting airbags into (or onto externally) helis?
Si
Si
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
Without too much drifting, I think the helmet issue has been answered in a couple ways that cover the industry. Lots of Utilty type jobs wear them for Safety and yes many Charter folks do not wear them as Passengers are alerted to that......
As to a Lifejacket.......Anytime where water may be an option you should have one along.
I also tailor a small survival kit to take with in case I may be, lets say, by myself for a while. It changes based on what Im doing, but usually always consists of a mirror, serrated knife and a strobe. Those stay on my person. You can take more and it will make things easier.
The old saying as to what you have on you when you exit the aircraft may be your only survival kit. Consider that...........
As to a Lifejacket.......Anytime where water may be an option you should have one along.
I also tailor a small survival kit to take with in case I may be, lets say, by myself for a while. It changes based on what Im doing, but usually always consists of a mirror, serrated knife and a strobe. Those stay on my person. You can take more and it will make things easier.
The old saying as to what you have on you when you exit the aircraft may be your only survival kit. Consider that...........
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
As far as not wearing a helmet because it raises concern amongst the passengers. Remember one thing - in the event of an accident, you (the pilot) are the first line of rescue for your passengers!! If you are knocked out, or worse, during an accident then you are of no use to anybody......
Also, passengers are usually only in the helicopter for one trip every so often, so are not being subjected to the noise levels for the same length of time as a pilot. As I mentioned previously, wearing a suitable helmet can substantially reduce problems induced by being exposed to high sound and vibration levels for long periods.
Also, passengers are usually only in the helicopter for one trip every so often, so are not being subjected to the noise levels for the same length of time as a pilot. As I mentioned previously, wearing a suitable helmet can substantially reduce problems induced by being exposed to high sound and vibration levels for long periods.
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Re: Flight safety, to much ?
drifting even further....as most heli's are based around a tubular frame, is this frame extended to cover a survival zone/roll cage around the pilot/occupants ?
If not, why not ? Is it a weight consideration - I can't imagine the extra weight would be much, and given the deceleration and damage a rally car for example undergoes when crashing, and the occupants in most cases walk away - I can't see that not being a benefit to helo pilots/passengers.
Understandably, maybe quite an additional weight for say a puma, but what about the Robbies and S300's, and maybe jetbox size ?
If not, why not ? Is it a weight consideration - I can't imagine the extra weight would be much, and given the deceleration and damage a rally car for example undergoes when crashing, and the occupants in most cases walk away - I can't see that not being a benefit to helo pilots/passengers.
Understandably, maybe quite an additional weight for say a puma, but what about the Robbies and S300's, and maybe jetbox size ?
Re: Flight safety, to much ?
[QUOTE][many of us in the big machines are not allowed wear helmets because if we did the pax would all want them/QUOTE]
Lunar! Maybe you think about changing job? If my company was worried about what the passengers thought was safe then we would not be in business.
Lunar! Maybe you think about changing job? If my company was worried about what the passengers thought was safe then we would not be in business.
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Re: Flight safety, too much ?
Aesir,
Anyone who flies in the North Sea is used to this problem. None of the three companies up here will let you wear a lid when you fly for the oil companies. There are a few of us who would want to wear them but it's not going to happen. What is the story in GOM with regard to helmet wearing pilots?
Lunar
Anyone who flies in the North Sea is used to this problem. None of the three companies up here will let you wear a lid when you fly for the oil companies. There are a few of us who would want to wear them but it's not going to happen. What is the story in GOM with regard to helmet wearing pilots?
Lunar