Full down auto's ...
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to the nr fairy, if you trained in australia and were not taught to do touchdown autos you were not trained to the c.a.s.a. sylabus as it is a requirement to do this training and most companies do heaps. you must have been taught to fly in a r22 or with an instructor who was not up to speed,that seems to deter a lot of instructors. you have to realise that autos in nearly all types of helicopters are not a problem for most pilots even more so for pilots with experience, and an experienced pilot should be able to get his machine safely to the ground in an emergency. as long as you maintain the right forward speed for the machine you are in till flare height and slow the helicopter down you should be able to walk away with you, your pax and the machine in one piece. this should not be a problem. the problem is what is the surface like that you have approached to. anything but a reasonably flat hard even surface will give you a very difficult time believe me. the r22 has so many variables in auto that life can get tricky at the bottom and it is extremely fragile in the skid area. pilots roll them up regularly on prepared surfaces more than any other type let alone to an unknown clearing. it's great to be able to auto rotate successfully and cream them on but it is getting it into that position correctly at the flare at the right speed that counts. the reason that some countries don't have a high accident rate in training is because they don't do touchdowns. r22's are extremely expensive to buy and maintain and insurance is off the planet. losing a machine is a massive cost to a school.one school has wrecked 4 machines in twelve months 3 practicing autos. go to a flying school that has a machine that is a little more forgiving and i am sure they will let you throw it at the ground. good luck.
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There is NOTHING fragile about the R22 gear. In fact it is the only helicopter I have flown that can run on sideways at 30 knots and not damage anything (to a runway).
The only real variable different than other types is the rotor inertia. Set a minimum wind speed for practice touch-down autos and carefully oversee your student and there isn't really a problem, with 1 caveat. High density altitude resulting from temperature and humidity increase the wind required to provide a reasonable safety margin.
Do the autos dual only and to a hard surface (runway) and it works well. Where I'm working now the R22 and R44 are the only types we take to touchdown during recurrent flights. The turbines (B206, AS350, and HU50) are too expensive to ding if the auto isn't perfect. Not so the Robbie's, we can let the pilot have more lee-way in them.
And about the comment that any experienced pilot can do an auto; it takes a mindset to always be ready, and too many experienced pilots feel they can handle anything and stop preparing themselves mentally. Recurrent training regularly starts with a first auto that would have killed us both, and progresses from there.
The only real variable different than other types is the rotor inertia. Set a minimum wind speed for practice touch-down autos and carefully oversee your student and there isn't really a problem, with 1 caveat. High density altitude resulting from temperature and humidity increase the wind required to provide a reasonable safety margin.
Do the autos dual only and to a hard surface (runway) and it works well. Where I'm working now the R22 and R44 are the only types we take to touchdown during recurrent flights. The turbines (B206, AS350, and HU50) are too expensive to ding if the auto isn't perfect. Not so the Robbie's, we can let the pilot have more lee-way in them.
And about the comment that any experienced pilot can do an auto; it takes a mindset to always be ready, and too many experienced pilots feel they can handle anything and stop preparing themselves mentally. Recurrent training regularly starts with a first auto that would have killed us both, and progresses from there.
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Having spent the last 6 yrs. of my Army career instructing at Ft. Rucker, I have done thousands of touchdown autos. However since retiring and flying for commercial operators, I have only worked for one company that did them on annual recurrency. I'm here to tell you that doing touchdown autos is a perishable skill,ie use it or lose it. For the last several years I have been doing autos with a power recovery. And then only once a year. Not nearly enough practice to remain skillful. If you work for an operator where you can do touchdown autos, you are luckier than most of us. Fly Safe!
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Hey GulfPlt,
Confirm the standard thing at Rucker is to do them to the runway, using skid shoes? (You're talking about Hueys, are you?).
You must slide a fair way after a fast touchdown, I imagine.
Any hair-raising anecdotes?
When I was instructing in Aust. we would always do them to the grass, to leave the runway free for other users and to reduce wear and tear on the skids.
If the surface was firm it was fine, but a few people have embarrassed themselves when the skids dug into a wetter-than expected surface and nearly tipped themselves over forwards.
We had a couple of guys up in a Squirrel one day doing autos who rolled the throttle fully off instead of to idle (ours have a twist-grip throttle mod) who luckily landed it nicely, only realising their mistake when a bunch of caution lights came on.
Numerous people have either dug the stinger in to the ground or spread the skids by falling from on high, and we've had at least one tail rotor assembly depart the aircraft and go flying past when it was dug into the grass at the bottom of an auto.
I guess with the number of aircraft and sorties you guys flew you would have had numerous 'untoward incidents'.
An interesting ride we used to do on instructor conversions was unofficially known as 'Saving f***ed autos', where you would have fun trying out things like deliberately waiting until it was too late to flare, then reefing in a handful of collective to drag the aircraft up to a height where you could then very rapidly flare and lower the lever again to regain the lost rotor rpm, and continue for a touchdown.
Good to give you that extra level of confidence that you could save things from almost the last moment. Fun too; or maybe my sense of self-preservation was just under-developed!
Confirm the standard thing at Rucker is to do them to the runway, using skid shoes? (You're talking about Hueys, are you?).
You must slide a fair way after a fast touchdown, I imagine.
Any hair-raising anecdotes?
When I was instructing in Aust. we would always do them to the grass, to leave the runway free for other users and to reduce wear and tear on the skids.
If the surface was firm it was fine, but a few people have embarrassed themselves when the skids dug into a wetter-than expected surface and nearly tipped themselves over forwards.
We had a couple of guys up in a Squirrel one day doing autos who rolled the throttle fully off instead of to idle (ours have a twist-grip throttle mod) who luckily landed it nicely, only realising their mistake when a bunch of caution lights came on.
Numerous people have either dug the stinger in to the ground or spread the skids by falling from on high, and we've had at least one tail rotor assembly depart the aircraft and go flying past when it was dug into the grass at the bottom of an auto.
I guess with the number of aircraft and sorties you guys flew you would have had numerous 'untoward incidents'.
An interesting ride we used to do on instructor conversions was unofficially known as 'Saving f***ed autos', where you would have fun trying out things like deliberately waiting until it was too late to flare, then reefing in a handful of collective to drag the aircraft up to a height where you could then very rapidly flare and lower the lever again to regain the lost rotor rpm, and continue for a touchdown.
Good to give you that extra level of confidence that you could save things from almost the last moment. Fun too; or maybe my sense of self-preservation was just under-developed!
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Well seems the chief pilot is the only one who can demo them, again as I expected it is an insurance thing, but I do intend to see how it's done.
HeloTeacher,
I'm of the mindset that you described, a waiting game that sometime, somewhere, it will happen to me, don't know when, but I'd like to be ready for it when it finally happens. And if it doesn't for that flight, makes it even more enjoyable practicing. That is what really had me start the thread, here I am getting ready for my commercial of all things, and I think, would I get down if I had to? I really want to see one, and shall get the chief pilot to show me one at least if not get me to do a few.
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Marc
HeloTeacher,
I'm of the mindset that you described, a waiting game that sometime, somewhere, it will happen to me, don't know when, but I'd like to be ready for it when it finally happens. And if it doesn't for that flight, makes it even more enjoyable practicing. That is what really had me start the thread, here I am getting ready for my commercial of all things, and I think, would I get down if I had to? I really want to see one, and shall get the chief pilot to show me one at least if not get me to do a few.
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Marc
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Arm,
I was teaching the Instructor Pilot Course in OH-58's. We had built up skid shoes and most all were done on paved lanes. We were supposed to teach touchdowns with a ground slide of 2 helicopter lengths. Since I was teaching higher time pilots how to be instructors, I used to show them how to do zero ground run autos. After all, if you had to put it down in an unimproved area, such as a plowed field, the last thing you want is ground run.
We did do role reversal, where I acted as a student and deliberately screwed up the manuever. They were taught how to recover. We did standard autos, autos with turns, low level low airspeed autos, low level high airspeed autos, and hovering autos. Not to mention all the other emergency procedures.
My favorite role reversal was when I did hovering autos and rolled the throttle back and pulled in an armload of collective, leaving them 20 ft. in the air counting the blades.
I was fortunate(Lucky) in that I never bent an acft. And yes; plenty of exciting recoveries.
[This message has been edited by GulfPLt (edited 29 May 2001).]
I was teaching the Instructor Pilot Course in OH-58's. We had built up skid shoes and most all were done on paved lanes. We were supposed to teach touchdowns with a ground slide of 2 helicopter lengths. Since I was teaching higher time pilots how to be instructors, I used to show them how to do zero ground run autos. After all, if you had to put it down in an unimproved area, such as a plowed field, the last thing you want is ground run.
We did do role reversal, where I acted as a student and deliberately screwed up the manuever. They were taught how to recover. We did standard autos, autos with turns, low level low airspeed autos, low level high airspeed autos, and hovering autos. Not to mention all the other emergency procedures.
My favorite role reversal was when I did hovering autos and rolled the throttle back and pulled in an armload of collective, leaving them 20 ft. in the air counting the blades.
I was fortunate(Lucky) in that I never bent an acft. And yes; plenty of exciting recoveries.
[This message has been edited by GulfPLt (edited 29 May 2001).]
