Koala operators in the UK
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Pewsey, UK
Koala operators in the UK
All :. .. . Does anyone know of a Koala operator in the UK - possibly motor-sport related ?. .. . And yes, it is related to the letter in Pilot. Once I get more info as to whether it's genuine or an April Fool I'll be following up.
Thread Starter
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From: Pewsey, UK
Thanks for that. I've emailed the guy who purports to have sent the letter, and once I have a reply I'll take it from there.. .. .Anyone else seen the letter, and anyone wish to comment on it ?
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From: Escrick York england
nr fairy . .the article in pilot was sent by norman osment . .his e mail address shows his web site m-sport.co.uk [malcolm wilson] in cockermouth nice web pages have a look [this is not a advert] . .. .as for the article if students had to learn in £1 million plus helicopters i dont think there would be many students . . if they could get insurance . . imagine a 14 hr student on his first solo in a koala what would the insurance broker say. .also in motor sport do they learn in F1 cars or bangers nuff said. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 19:26: Message edited by: md 600 driver ]</small>
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From: London
I read the letter and thought it was just plain silly. Not worth rising to. Never thought of the April Fool angle, though. What are your intentions, Nr fairy?. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 19:45: Message edited by: t'aint natural ]</small>
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From: London
The Pilot database lists 'Norman Osment Carlisle: ATPL(H&G) 12800hr AS350, A119, R22, B206, MD500/600, SA341, B47, EN280/480, Hughes 269/369, A109, Scout, Hiller, Alouette'. . . . <small>[ 15 March 2002, 22:15: Message edited by: t'aint natural ]</small>
Thread Starter
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From: Pewsey, UK
Helmet Fire :. .. . Just for you, taken direct and verbatim from April's Pilot (page 50).. .. .Training Helicopters. .I would like to see the CAA place more emphasis on the safety of helicopters that are used for training. The prospective student ought to have the same safeguards that we expect from other professionals such as doctors, in that the equipment used is the best in every respect for the task, which may well mean it is not the cheapest.. .. .The student requires ample room for handling errors. Having to deal with engine failures associated with carburettor icing is not acceptable, nor is having to handle the effects of rollover due to a simplistic design of the main rotor. This places all the emphasis on the student to get it right every time. The number of incidents and accidents is far too great.. .. .As the only operator of the Agusta A119 Koala in the UK, I can certainly recommend it for range and payload: a pilot and seven passengers at 130 knots for 300nm, or three passengers at 135 knots for 440nm. Since acquiring it in May 2001, it's been to Cyprus, Greece, Corsica, Monaco, Finland and Wales.. . . . <small>[ 16 March 2002, 07:15: Message edited by: The Nr Fairy ]</small>
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From: South of the North Pole
And after all that, he is NOT the only Koala operator in the UK. Yes, M-Sport had the first one (Italian reg v.appropriately as I-RALY), but there is a private operation out of Thruxton with an N-reg one too.. .. .It seems like the sales of the Koala have been fairly slow, but I noticed a story of one this week going into Canada and there was another recently for an EMS operation in US
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From: Escrick York england
pp heli. .i dont think they want to sell them .. .. .I went every day at hai to get a flight all they kept telling me that the person was not there to authorise it maybe its cause westland now are part owners they only sell to big opperators
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From: Beyond the black stump!
Interesting comment there MD600 driver. There was a story floating around last year about a UK corporate operator who wanted to buy an EH-101, but then Westland decided not to sell him one???. .. .I would have thought they would jump at anyone wanting to buy one!
Thread Starter
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From: Pewsey, UK
I've received a response from Norman Osment - the letter was sent with serious intent. He also says "The response from other readers is rather complex. I've obviously stirred up a can of worms."
Here's the text of the letter I've sent to Pilot, whether it gets published is another matter. I've emailed the thread URL to Norman for his perusal.
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Norman Osment's letter - a response
I read Norman Osment's letter in April's Pilot with a measure of incredulity, then suspicion when I twigged it was the April issue.
I think Norman's point of view - that of a 12000 hour pilot with a lot of different types in his log book (according to what I think is his entry on the Pilot contact list) - is skewing his thinking.
I'd like to address some of his points as best I can. Firstly, doctors and every other professional try to get value for money out of their equipment, and if it isn't the best, then they accept limitations and do the job as best they can. With proper education the limitations can be understood and avoided.
Secondly, it's not only helicopters which rely on carb heat to help prevent engine stoppages - if Norman is suggesting that the whole fixed wing training fleet is also unsafe, then maybe we should re-equip the whole GA fleet with nothing less than fuel injection systems. That's impractical, and as long as students are trained from day one to deal with carb ice properly and follow POH advice, they shouldn't go far wrong. If they can't deal with that, perhaps flying isn't for them ?
Thirdly I'm not aware of the design of the rotor system being implicated in any rollover accidents - as an experienced helicopter pilot Norman should know this. ANY helicopter, piston engined or otherwise, is susceptible to rollover. If Norman meant mast bumping, then any underslung rotor system ( including from Norman's profile the Bell 47, R22, JetRanger )is susceptible if mishandled. Training to avoid low G and ( god forbid you should find yourself there ) advice on how best to recover is the best preventative.
Lastly, the ill-disguised advert for a helicopter which is priced well beyond the purchasing power of the vast majority of student helicopter pilots to buy or operate seems incongruous with the rest of the letter. Perhaps I'd think more highly of Norman if he'd strung his arguments together with a modicum of thought and cohesion. As it stands, his letter is a poor advert for his experience and ability as a helicopter pilot, and a poor reflection on Pilot for actually printing it.
Yours
Dave Venman
Here's the text of the letter I've sent to Pilot, whether it gets published is another matter. I've emailed the thread URL to Norman for his perusal.
----------------------
Norman Osment's letter - a response
I read Norman Osment's letter in April's Pilot with a measure of incredulity, then suspicion when I twigged it was the April issue.
I think Norman's point of view - that of a 12000 hour pilot with a lot of different types in his log book (according to what I think is his entry on the Pilot contact list) - is skewing his thinking.
I'd like to address some of his points as best I can. Firstly, doctors and every other professional try to get value for money out of their equipment, and if it isn't the best, then they accept limitations and do the job as best they can. With proper education the limitations can be understood and avoided.
Secondly, it's not only helicopters which rely on carb heat to help prevent engine stoppages - if Norman is suggesting that the whole fixed wing training fleet is also unsafe, then maybe we should re-equip the whole GA fleet with nothing less than fuel injection systems. That's impractical, and as long as students are trained from day one to deal with carb ice properly and follow POH advice, they shouldn't go far wrong. If they can't deal with that, perhaps flying isn't for them ?
Thirdly I'm not aware of the design of the rotor system being implicated in any rollover accidents - as an experienced helicopter pilot Norman should know this. ANY helicopter, piston engined or otherwise, is susceptible to rollover. If Norman meant mast bumping, then any underslung rotor system ( including from Norman's profile the Bell 47, R22, JetRanger )is susceptible if mishandled. Training to avoid low G and ( god forbid you should find yourself there ) advice on how best to recover is the best preventative.
Lastly, the ill-disguised advert for a helicopter which is priced well beyond the purchasing power of the vast majority of student helicopter pilots to buy or operate seems incongruous with the rest of the letter. Perhaps I'd think more highly of Norman if he'd strung his arguments together with a modicum of thought and cohesion. As it stands, his letter is a poor advert for his experience and ability as a helicopter pilot, and a poor reflection on Pilot for actually printing it.
Yours
Dave Venman
Last edited by The Nr Fairy; 11th April 2002 at 14:13.
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From: Dansaff
An interesting set of posts, not sure if I agree with the naming and shaming but thats done.
Dont understand why NO has said he's the only operator of a 119 as I operate the other for a Private individual as posted, I'll mention that to him!
The koala is good for payload and range, but it must have the aux tanks fitted for that. A single with up to 700 kgs burning 200 an hour is very useful, and is extremely fast but the penalty for speed in this case is specific fuel consumption which is high above 75% Tq.
For training abinitio students I would suggest the jury is still out, I am an experienced trainer and would argue that the Koala has areas that would not suit student training. But as a utility conversion a good choice but expensive.
For what its worth, I've always maintained students should learn simply and get the basics sorted before complicating what is a very complicated science.
Dont understand why NO has said he's the only operator of a 119 as I operate the other for a Private individual as posted, I'll mention that to him!
The koala is good for payload and range, but it must have the aux tanks fitted for that. A single with up to 700 kgs burning 200 an hour is very useful, and is extremely fast but the penalty for speed in this case is specific fuel consumption which is high above 75% Tq.
For training abinitio students I would suggest the jury is still out, I am an experienced trainer and would argue that the Koala has areas that would not suit student training. But as a utility conversion a good choice but expensive.
For what its worth, I've always maintained students should learn simply and get the basics sorted before complicating what is a very complicated science.
Thread Starter
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Pewsey, UK
The June issue of Pilot has two letters in response to Norman's. The second is a slightly edited version of mine - see previous page. The first is reproduced verbatim from the pages of Pilot ( thanks, I'm working on the principle that it's easier to ask forgiveness ! ).
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Does Norman Osment really believe that the cost of helicopter training would be acceptable if undertaken in an eight-seater ?
I can bet a year's (meagre) salary that any student training in an R22 and paying out of his own pocket would give it up if all training was suddenly required to be on a A119! I think £200+ per hour is just about affordable but using an A119 for training is ridiculous.
He states that 'students require room for handling errors' and 'having to deal with engine failures associated with carb icing not being acceptable' - I find this mentality hard to believe. Carburettor icing can and does occur but correct training and practice takes this risk out of the equation.
A prospective student should be able to make up his or her own mind as to which machine they wish to learn to fly in. If the risks are pointed out before training commences and then the instruction is of a high standard, accident statistics should reduce. Any flying machine in the wrong hands is dangerous. Don't all pilots know that ?
Michael Georgiou
----
Does Norman Osment really believe that the cost of helicopter training would be acceptable if undertaken in an eight-seater ?
I can bet a year's (meagre) salary that any student training in an R22 and paying out of his own pocket would give it up if all training was suddenly required to be on a A119! I think £200+ per hour is just about affordable but using an A119 for training is ridiculous.
He states that 'students require room for handling errors' and 'having to deal with engine failures associated with carb icing not being acceptable' - I find this mentality hard to believe. Carburettor icing can and does occur but correct training and practice takes this risk out of the equation.
A prospective student should be able to make up his or her own mind as to which machine they wish to learn to fly in. If the risks are pointed out before training commences and then the instruction is of a high standard, accident statistics should reduce. Any flying machine in the wrong hands is dangerous. Don't all pilots know that ?
Michael Georgiou
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From: London
Good pair of letters there. This bloke Osment lives on a different planet to me.
Did you see the pictures of the R22 that almost shed a blade on Tuesday, Fairy? Frightening - cracked right around the grip. Every R22 inspected yesterday, nothing apparently found.
Did you see the pictures of the R22 that almost shed a blade on Tuesday, Fairy? Frightening - cracked right around the grip. Every R22 inspected yesterday, nothing apparently found.
