Off the shelf
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Off the shelf
After all the years of waiting [for a uniquely developed RAF system] amid a great deal of self congratulation the Yorkshire Post reported this morning that the RAF had 'found' its perfect TCAS to stop those awkward civil aircraft incidents where the military knock down or scare to death the odd civil interloper.
Off the shelf [of course] and overdue [of course] it will be in the Tucano fleet by March next year..... So all you need to dodge now is the rest of the fleet!
The 'Post....[edited]
A WARNING system which stops military aircraft colliding in mid-air has been developed at a Yorkshire air base.
In a collaboration between RAF Linton-on-Ouse and industry, military and civilian engineers have produced a system – the first of its type to be used by the RAF – which warns aircraft of potential collision.......
The initiative, which began in 2002, is a pilot project which will pave the way for the safety system to be used on all RAF aircraft.
The collaboration was recognised when four members of the team received the national L G Groves memorial prize for air safety......
"Using a commercial off-the-shelf system has proven efficient and very cost-effective. I think the whole project has shown the value of public and private specialists working together."
.......Skywatch system ...........
Why so long?
You may recall that it was a Tucano that hit a police AS355 in September 1997 ... at that time a 'special system' was under development because the RAF 'COULD NOT USE A COTS SYSTEM....' And it took them 5 long years to change their mind and three more to get this far.
dft_avsafety_pdf_500831.pdf
Off the shelf [of course] and overdue [of course] it will be in the Tucano fleet by March next year..... So all you need to dodge now is the rest of the fleet!
The 'Post....[edited]
A WARNING system which stops military aircraft colliding in mid-air has been developed at a Yorkshire air base.
In a collaboration between RAF Linton-on-Ouse and industry, military and civilian engineers have produced a system – the first of its type to be used by the RAF – which warns aircraft of potential collision.......
The initiative, which began in 2002, is a pilot project which will pave the way for the safety system to be used on all RAF aircraft.
The collaboration was recognised when four members of the team received the national L G Groves memorial prize for air safety......
"Using a commercial off-the-shelf system has proven efficient and very cost-effective. I think the whole project has shown the value of public and private specialists working together."
.......Skywatch system ...........
Why so long?
You may recall that it was a Tucano that hit a police AS355 in September 1997 ... at that time a 'special system' was under development because the RAF 'COULD NOT USE A COTS SYSTEM....' And it took them 5 long years to change their mind and three more to get this far.
dft_avsafety_pdf_500831.pdf
Last edited by PANews; 7th January 2006 at 19:16.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,735
Likes: 21
From: Used to be God's own County
Re: Off the shelf
Not sure what you're on about.......
Are you bemoaning the fact that money is scarce in the mil training world and that it takes a while for resources to be allocated to something that was quite a way down the 'necessary' list, or,
The fact that implementing a TCAS on an airliner is a lot more straightforward than implementing it on an aircraft that requires vastly different considerations.........
picture the scenario -
Tucano approaching top of loop, well below base of airway, sets off TCAS in cruising airliner due to its rate of climb vector thingy-me-jig (pilot has to put coffee down for a moment), unnecessary actions required all round........
Low-level through the hills, rapid angle of bank changes during tight climbing/diving turns, again, TCAS alerts all around..........
So the chaps on the implementation team had a bit to overcome before sticking another bit of kit on an aircraft.
Next, you'd be advocating the use of TCAS instead of lookout in the circuit ;-)
Are you bemoaning the fact that money is scarce in the mil training world and that it takes a while for resources to be allocated to something that was quite a way down the 'necessary' list, or,
The fact that implementing a TCAS on an airliner is a lot more straightforward than implementing it on an aircraft that requires vastly different considerations.........
picture the scenario -
Tucano approaching top of loop, well below base of airway, sets off TCAS in cruising airliner due to its rate of climb vector thingy-me-jig (pilot has to put coffee down for a moment), unnecessary actions required all round........
Low-level through the hills, rapid angle of bank changes during tight climbing/diving turns, again, TCAS alerts all around..........
So the chaps on the implementation team had a bit to overcome before sticking another bit of kit on an aircraft.
Next, you'd be advocating the use of TCAS instead of lookout in the circuit ;-)
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Re: Off the shelf
On about...?
That it took eight years to get this far and then they have selected the very thing [ie Skywatch] that was there staring them in the face in the first place.
As a result of that specific incident police aircraft in the UK [and others] fitted themselves up with a range of COTS technology options seven years ago. A Goodrich system was certified in 1999.
They [the RAF] specifically discounted that they could/would lower themselves to a level where they would use a COTS system at all - ever.
OK I accept that times move on and it is now more acceptable for the mil to take-up with COTS, but that does not remove the principle of the moan that they took so long to get around to it...
There are a number of civil aviators who might just still be drinking at the bar today if this decision had been made earlier.
And as for your scenario suggesting that TCAS is only for airliners I do not think that the TCAS in a police helicopter in a tight orbit or a lift off or let down to and from a pad is a great deal different to the aerobatics in a Tucano.
That it took eight years to get this far and then they have selected the very thing [ie Skywatch] that was there staring them in the face in the first place.
As a result of that specific incident police aircraft in the UK [and others] fitted themselves up with a range of COTS technology options seven years ago. A Goodrich system was certified in 1999.
They [the RAF] specifically discounted that they could/would lower themselves to a level where they would use a COTS system at all - ever.
OK I accept that times move on and it is now more acceptable for the mil to take-up with COTS, but that does not remove the principle of the moan that they took so long to get around to it...
There are a number of civil aviators who might just still be drinking at the bar today if this decision had been made earlier.
And as for your scenario suggesting that TCAS is only for airliners I do not think that the TCAS in a police helicopter in a tight orbit or a lift off or let down to and from a pad is a great deal different to the aerobatics in a Tucano.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 370
Likes: 18
From: Oman
Re: Off the shelf
Bryn
You are right to highlight the indecision and inertia shown by the RAF in getting TCAS. Ironic that they have been awarded a flight safety trophy! They should look more closely into what is available "off the shelf".
Would an "off the shelf" radar have helped in the Mull of Kintyre crash?
EESDL the Tucano aerobatics below the airway would set off the airliner's TCAS whether or not the Tucano had TCAS fitted. It would be the Tucano's squawk which alerted the airliner
You are right to highlight the indecision and inertia shown by the RAF in getting TCAS. Ironic that they have been awarded a flight safety trophy! They should look more closely into what is available "off the shelf".
Would an "off the shelf" radar have helped in the Mull of Kintyre crash?
EESDL the Tucano aerobatics below the airway would set off the airliner's TCAS whether or not the Tucano had TCAS fitted. It would be the Tucano's squawk which alerted the airliner
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,055
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From: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Re: Off the shelf
We have a 'basic' TCAS type system fitted to our EC135 and it is a fantastic piece of kit. It doesn't have pull up/down or terrain warnings, just traffic alerts. It doesn't replace lookout either, but it has helped my lookout many many times, I see anything that squawks because the kit tells me to look harder if I miss something. Remember its limitations though, microlites tend not to have transponders so the eyeballs are still number one at low level. The Tucano can only be better with this kit. 
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Re: Off the shelf
What a silly statement. If TCAS helps prevent just ONE mid-air, then it's a waste of no-one's money.
There are always TWO aircraft involved in a mid-air collision and it's the tax payers up there flying, of course. Including the military!
There are always TWO aircraft involved in a mid-air collision and it's the tax payers up there flying, of course. Including the military!
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
Re: Off the shelf
One off the shelf version of Traffic Alert costs about 800 USD....and it works to alert you to other traffic. I would bet you the government would pay about 20,000 USD for the same item with all of the rules and regulations they have for buying items for the Mob. I am sure in the UK...it is the same.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 1,187
Likes: 16
From: Waltham Abbey, Essex, UK
Re: Off the shelf
Arm out of the window.... waste of money?
20k for a bit of kit that might stop the impact between a couple of £30M aircraft? I bet each bomb they drop on the ranges cost more than that.
Anyway what is a military trainer?
When we arn't at war virtually every flight is training and therefore every unnecessary collision is a waste of resources. A cheap to acquire TCAS can be disconnected/pulled out when 'the balloon goes up' but until then...
You may recall that it was a Tucano trainer that hit a police AS355 in September 1997 - the mil crew was heads down [route planning?] and the police crew were looking downwards in the hover in a search pattern .... both would have been served by that simple 'traffic traffic' alert... The other two UK airspace fatals that spring to mind were Tornado's on training runs.
Assuming of course the military transponder worked. In 1999 a dead transponder was not a 'no-fly' fault as long as the mil formation had one working. That may have changed now, but it does not take a brains trust to envisage a scenario where the civilian aircraft [yes even an airliner] alerted by the TCAS simply moves away from the path of one danger into another.
20k for a bit of kit that might stop the impact between a couple of £30M aircraft? I bet each bomb they drop on the ranges cost more than that.
Anyway what is a military trainer?
When we arn't at war virtually every flight is training and therefore every unnecessary collision is a waste of resources. A cheap to acquire TCAS can be disconnected/pulled out when 'the balloon goes up' but until then...
You may recall that it was a Tucano trainer that hit a police AS355 in September 1997 - the mil crew was heads down [route planning?] and the police crew were looking downwards in the hover in a search pattern .... both would have been served by that simple 'traffic traffic' alert... The other two UK airspace fatals that spring to mind were Tornado's on training runs.
Assuming of course the military transponder worked. In 1999 a dead transponder was not a 'no-fly' fault as long as the mil formation had one working. That may have changed now, but it does not take a brains trust to envisage a scenario where the civilian aircraft [yes even an airliner] alerted by the TCAS simply moves away from the path of one danger into another.
