Civilian Air Observers!
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Civilian Air Observers!
Being new to this site please forgive any mistakes! I have been asked to research the question - The Pros and Cons of Civilians as Air Observers in Police Helicopters. I wonder if anyone has already carried out this exercise and if I could have your thoughts? Thanks.
Roy, hi. As you're an observer you might get more info from the Air Support Forum: <a href="http://www.oscar99.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi" target="_blank">http://www.oscar99.org.uk/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.c gi</a>
[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: MightyGem ]</p>
[ 24 February 2002: Message edited by: MightyGem ]</p>
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fasttaxi sorry to say that your comments smack of elitism. Are you saying that 'civilians' as you call them, give nothing to the community? The civilian pilot say? Paramedics? Doctors?
Each to their own opinion, here's mine. I don't believe you can have an entirely civilian crew, there are occasions when the crew may actually need to physically put their hand on the 'suspects' collar. Having a Police Officer on board will make that much easier, granted. (But by no means impossible!) However to totally right off the possibility of a civilian, ugh! non-police observer is surely wrong. Some X-Military aircrewman can...map read better than most 'Observers', they can operate FLIR systems as well as most observers. Their working knowledge of the aviation enviroment is better than most Police Officers! They're used to operating radio's & monitoring multiple channels. . .Before I cause offence, most of the bobbies I've flown with were/are very good at their jobs. Oh & I should point out that one of the best had what the Police considered 'no experience in the job' due to his short time in service. The best guy with a map I've ever come across also happened to be a bobby. . .As for the evidential side of things...um...most statements just read I was duty crew blah, with blah, I was operating the camera when my colleague directed me on to the 'suspect' etc. So hardly rocket science. The procedures you guys have in place can still be followed by non-police types & the supervisory Police Officer is on hand to ensure the ticks are in the correct boxes.. .I'm sorry, but I don't think you can just right off the possibilty of civilian aircrew. The training military aircrew get is second to none. I suppose another issue is 'sensitive' material. You check your pilots out first, so that's not a problem. Anyone with any military background is already subject to the official secrets act, & has probably been cleared to failry serious levels.. .The Police have chosen the route of civilian pilots, quite rightly!, so why not the next logical step? With the way the government is, criminally, cutting the boys in blue back, wouldn't a civilian air observer allow for more feet on the street? . .Just for the record! I admire the work the Police do, a thankless task I wouldn't want to take on. Police Air Support Units are an essential Policing tool. But surely you can't be seen to close ranks & cut out what may be a valuable source of observers.. .*Climbs off soapbox.....hides in corner* Boy is Roy gonna kill me!
Each to their own opinion, here's mine. I don't believe you can have an entirely civilian crew, there are occasions when the crew may actually need to physically put their hand on the 'suspects' collar. Having a Police Officer on board will make that much easier, granted. (But by no means impossible!) However to totally right off the possibility of a civilian, ugh! non-police observer is surely wrong. Some X-Military aircrewman can...map read better than most 'Observers', they can operate FLIR systems as well as most observers. Their working knowledge of the aviation enviroment is better than most Police Officers! They're used to operating radio's & monitoring multiple channels. . .Before I cause offence, most of the bobbies I've flown with were/are very good at their jobs. Oh & I should point out that one of the best had what the Police considered 'no experience in the job' due to his short time in service. The best guy with a map I've ever come across also happened to be a bobby. . .As for the evidential side of things...um...most statements just read I was duty crew blah, with blah, I was operating the camera when my colleague directed me on to the 'suspect' etc. So hardly rocket science. The procedures you guys have in place can still be followed by non-police types & the supervisory Police Officer is on hand to ensure the ticks are in the correct boxes.. .I'm sorry, but I don't think you can just right off the possibilty of civilian aircrew. The training military aircrew get is second to none. I suppose another issue is 'sensitive' material. You check your pilots out first, so that's not a problem. Anyone with any military background is already subject to the official secrets act, & has probably been cleared to failry serious levels.. .The Police have chosen the route of civilian pilots, quite rightly!, so why not the next logical step? With the way the government is, criminally, cutting the boys in blue back, wouldn't a civilian air observer allow for more feet on the street? . .Just for the record! I admire the work the Police do, a thankless task I wouldn't want to take on. Police Air Support Units are an essential Policing tool. But surely you can't be seen to close ranks & cut out what may be a valuable source of observers.. .*Climbs off soapbox.....hides in corner* Boy is Roy gonna kill me!
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Roofus, I have been firmly put in my place, yes it is elitism, sort of. Its gotta be one of the best jobs in the service and nigh on impossible to get in to it, that my reasoning! Apologies for any offence caused, certainly not my intention. Now I will shut up and guess you'd better move over in the corner to make room for 2 <img src="redface.gif" border="0">
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I agree with some of your comments Roofus, however, I also believe that there are several police air observers out there that would make excellent police pilots given the opportunity for training at say Shawbury for example. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Reynolds No. ]</p>
[ 26 February 2002: Message edited by: Reynolds No. ]</p>
Just a numbered other
The UEO at my local unit is a civvy, and a bloody good observer too.
Reynold, Don't be silly. There is no way that a newly trained crosstread from obs to pilot would be safe. Police flying is not as simple as the mostly ex mil pilots make it look. Experience is more imprtant here than anywhere.
Reynold, Don't be silly. There is no way that a newly trained crosstread from obs to pilot would be safe. Police flying is not as simple as the mostly ex mil pilots make it look. Experience is more imprtant here than anywhere.
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I'm sure they would Reynolds but the CAA won't allow it! They took Police Officers out the pilots seat ages ago. Why? Conflict of interests I believe! Police types let us fly, we'll let Police types Police & as a crew we'll keep the aircraft safe & catch nasty Mr Criminal!
On a lighter note......I know some police Observers who think they would! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .*ducks*
On a lighter note......I know some police Observers who think they would! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> . .*ducks*
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I must say that practice in UK of having civillian pilots is more or less unique in Europe. As I know, police helicopter crews in continental Europe are all sworn officers. When we had debate on this recently, we came on conclusion that this works well for employer, since sworn personnell has some advantages, like being available 24 hrs/day if needed, strike is practically off limits,... from legal point of wiew it is easier to send a sworn officer into a known danger (dealing with an armed & dangerous criminal) than civillian. Sending civillian into that kind of situation could be against the Safe working environment act.... What does others say on that?
P.S. As I know, at least one police air support unit in UK is seriously considering or maybe already using completely civillian crew - check with PAS services
[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: mihael ]</p>
P.S. As I know, at least one police air support unit in UK is seriously considering or maybe already using completely civillian crew - check with PAS services
[ 28 February 2002: Message edited by: mihael ]</p>
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As the aircraft in the Uk has to be operated under a PAOC, it therefore falls within both that and the ANO.
Both state the Captain's responsibilities. One of which is the safety of crew & aircraft. Certainly in the UK, the aircraft should never be in a situation where an armed suspect is a threat to said aircraft. As such the fact that there are 'civilians' on board should be of no consequence.
There are pros & cons on both sides. I simply believe that the best person for the job should fill the seat.
[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Roofus ]</p>
Both state the Captain's responsibilities. One of which is the safety of crew & aircraft. Certainly in the UK, the aircraft should never be in a situation where an armed suspect is a threat to said aircraft. As such the fact that there are 'civilians' on board should be of no consequence.
There are pros & cons on both sides. I simply believe that the best person for the job should fill the seat.
[ 01 March 2002: Message edited by: Roofus ]</p>
If we are to concede that police officers are "passengers" (which we must until someone tips the balance)then an aircraft commander cannot endanger the lives of those passengers - simple as that. Flying to a job where there is a known threat from gunfire is not one the pilot should accept (even if he is ex-special forces!).
Police officers as pilots in the police/HEMS role, is in my opinion, a short but sure route to increased accident/incident statistics.. .Quals are only the start of it. There is no short circuit to gaining experience. it comes with the territory over time.. .Secondly, assuming a bobby achieved the relevant quals, do you honestly believe he/she would stay with the force on their pay and conditions when they could fly commercially under much better benefits??. .I beleive the Optica crash in 1985 put paid to bobby pilots in the UK....comments?
Police officers as pilots in the police/HEMS role, is in my opinion, a short but sure route to increased accident/incident statistics.. .Quals are only the start of it. There is no short circuit to gaining experience. it comes with the territory over time.. .Secondly, assuming a bobby achieved the relevant quals, do you honestly believe he/she would stay with the force on their pay and conditions when they could fly commercially under much better benefits??. .I beleive the Optica crash in 1985 put paid to bobby pilots in the UK....comments?
This thread has been most interesting, as I always like to learn how ops are conducted in places other than my small world. Here in Kansas City, Missouri, the Police Department Helicopter Unit pilots are officers, too. In fact, they are officers first. The Unit takes it's new members from the regular force, then trains them in-house to fly. Also, existing FW drivers aren't necessarily given any preference at getting on with the HU, as they have bad habits to unlearn (I know from experience). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. . If I remember correctly, the observers are also pilots (they take turns as PF/PNF) so they have a good sense of what manuvers are safe, etc. They pointed out to me that they also don't do anything but police work (no ferrying the higher-ups or giving politicians tours of their area). Their primary function is support of officers on the ground, and indeed, any ground officer has the authority to request the helicopter join on the call.
Coincidentally, I spent a while this morning chatting to a couple of Yorkshire Police, who are here in Aust, where one of them is researching the way that we carry out emergency services ops, and integration between services. The issue of pilots being sworn officers seemed fairly contentious, and there was a fair bit of discussion as to why NSW, Victoria and other states have sworn officers as pilots. It came across that the UK preference for contract pilots was very much preferred, but I still don't have a good understanding of the reason why!. .. .There are a fair mix in VicPol of lateral entry and career police, making up the pilot pool. As a (close) outsider, I find there is little difference in the abilities of either group, which is a credit both to the standard of the lateral entry pilots, and the in house training afforded those police officers who make it into the right hand seat. Often after a long and arduous time spent as an observer, taking on whatever work is available in the industry to gain hours and make themselves suitably qualified to move into a pilot's slot.. .. .The system of pilot selection seems to work, and the policy of sworn officers in all crew positions cannot be faulted here. I'd be interested in any genuine reasons why it should be changed (but don't put the thread onto the politics of the PAW. Please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> )
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The policy of having policemen as pilots is fine if it suits you. Here in the highly/ overly (delete as necessary) regulated UK, the Police have approached police aviation in a piecemeal way, force by force over the last fifteen years. The easiest way of getting the aircraft on stream in the shortest time is to employ a ready trained pilot. Now I have no quibble with that policy, it keeps me employed and I think that we are too far down the line to employ policemen as pilots, in fact we seem to be starting the fight to keep policemen in the aircraft at all! The fascination with employing civilian observers under the guise of 'best value' or in order to return a uniformed officer to the beat is in my view a retrograde step. The police helicopter is not just a CCTV camera in the sky, during operations on pursuits, offender searches, public order situations etc etc, tactical police decisions can and are being made in the aircraft. Although it does not happen regularly, there is the facility to land and provide physical assistance to officers on the ground. Even in the sunny West Midlands that has happened on occasions. I hope that we in the UK continue to follow what seems to be the accepted method of police air operations around the rest of the world and keep policemen operating the aircraft. Certainly I think that is how the major metropolitan forces intend to continue for the forseeable future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />. . . . <small>[ 03 March 2002, 14:21: Message edited by: handysnaks ]</small>
