Tip Path Plane - thread removed
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 5,197
Likes: 1
From: UK
Tip Path Plane - thread removed
I had not been following this thread.
Having now seen it, I immediately removed it because of the potentially extremely defamatory, contents of Lu Zuckerman's posts.
Freedom of speech is a fine principle in which most of us still believe - but it also has corresponding responsibilities which some of our number seem to forget at times.
The thread will be restored if the PPRuNe Administrators consider it appropriate.
Heliport
Joint Moderator
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Heliport ]</p>
Having now seen it, I immediately removed it because of the potentially extremely defamatory, contents of Lu Zuckerman's posts.
Freedom of speech is a fine principle in which most of us still believe - but it also has corresponding responsibilities which some of our number seem to forget at times.
The thread will be restored if the PPRuNe Administrators consider it appropriate.
Heliport
Joint Moderator
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Heliport ]</p>
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
Joined: May 1996
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 17,681
Likes: 24
From: UK
This is a warning to those of you who are unable to maintain a debate without descending into defamatory statements which are also extremely pathetic and do nothing except ruin the forum for everyone else.
I have decided to make a change to this statement in light of new information presented to me. Whilst I singled out Lu Zuckerman by name I still maintain the warning about defammatory or libelous statements and his post was the one that had to be edited because of such a statement. I retract the allegation that he was banned from Just Helicopters and instead left because it was unmoderated.
Also, I have to add that some others, knowing that Lu is easily goaded have only themselves to blame by their own descent into some very coarse insults which only detracts from what would otherwise be technicaly interesting debates. So just to avoid any misunderstanding I place equal blame for the inability to maintain a mature discussion on those who respond to points of disagreement with insults and only serve to fuel what eventually appears to the rest of us as a bunch of undisciplined egos embarrasing themselves in public.
As was pointed out, it takes two to tango.
To make it easy I will repeat it here and also include the other nine 'commandments' that set out our general policy in moderating these forums:
These are not subject to debate and no correspondence will be entered into.
A reiteration of guidelines.
First
You click the accept button to get in here after agreeing to the following;
[quote]Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at PPRuNe do not actively monitor the contents of and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.
Although this BB does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this BB reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless PPRuNe, Madrona Park, Inc. (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).
We at this BB also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.
Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this BB.<hr></blockquote>
Second
The moderator will decide what, when and where is appropriate as far as posts are concerned, this BB is run as fairly as is possible, but, given the ethical and legal responsibilities demanded it is NOT a democracy and does not respond well to demands for this or that ‘right’ especially when it violates another’s ‘right’.
Third
We assume that PPRuNers are grown-ups capable of reading the newspapers for information publicly available and do not need to be fed an hourly diet of "news" items.
If they are PPRuNing then they are capable of accessing the Internet news services for this purpose, if they are too lazy to do so then it is their loss but not our responsibility. Apart from all of the foregoing it consumes bandwidth and makes it all run slower than it needs be.
By tradition and in so far as is necessary, some people have provided, without comment, an “appropriate” news service and we hope will continue to do so. If it is felt necessary to point to a worthy news item then a LINK to it will suffice AND will not therefore violate the principle of copyright belonging to the originator or consume PPRuNe bandwidth. Any “news” items posted forthwith without attribution to the originator will be deleted.
Fourth
Hijacking of threads has become the norm rather than the exception. The moderator must take some responsibility for not policing this as vigorously as is possible. Individual PPRuNers have the right to pursue a thread subject without it being hijacked to some other agenda. This will be policed more vigorously forthwith.
Spamming of the forum by an individual with 'interesting' news and views, albeit well intentioned, actually has the opposite effect and inhibits full and free participation
Fifth
Some feel compelled to have "absolutely the last word" or "be vindicated" on a thread topic regardless of other posters views. This causes threads to become long and tediously repetitious and WILL cause its premature closure to the detriment of others. We provide a forum for the exchange of rumour, news and views of matters aviation NOT a venue for the imposition of personal agenda. This violation of individual rights will not be tolerated.
Moderators are the friend of EVERY PPRuNer equally on all forums without fear or favour, as we should be with each other, unless they breach the bounds of decency and civility. A difference of opinion in civilized company should not necessarily invoke or provoke instant hostility.
We, like many, are a little tired of the "if you cant see the rightness of my argument then I feel sorry for you, because I am trying to help you" routine. Argue your point on the issue in a civilized manner, accept that there may be different views from yours and get on with it. We will all then, at the very least learn something beyond mere polemics.
Sixth
Thread subjects outside matters to do with aviation in any forum will be sent elsewhere to a more appropriate forum or deleted. Again we assume that if you are a 'grown-up' and reasonably computer literate you will know how to look after yourself and computer insofar as virus or other matters, which in any event are dealt with in the Computer & Internet Forum. This is an aviation forum frequented by, we hope, responsible professional adult aviators who should not need and do not want their hands held in these matters.
Seventh
Whilst the motivation may be well intentioned, it is the moderators, NOT individual PPRuNers task to chide or otherwise bring into line, errant posters if it is necessary to do so. Threads originated to plead with fellow PPRuNers to lay off are self-fulfilling prophesies in attracting further examples of that for which they plead. They are not relevant, raise the moderator workload and will be deleted.
Eighth
We moderate these forums as a service to fellow PPRuNers and to help keep this whole wonderful thing right way up for everyone. It takes valuable time and effort, given ungrudgingly, but time and effort nonetheless. We are just ordinary people, with busy lives that extends well beyond the boundaries of these forums who have volunteered (been press-ganged ) into continuing to moderate some of the more difficult forums. It would be very easy to just pull the plug, but it has agreed that whilst we keep it under control it can continue. We will continue to do so whilst it is worthwhile.
Ninth
FYI, and we don’t think we’ll have to kill you by telling you this but, the 'royal we', are many, dedicated to and in the interests of spreading the load, bringing a broader perspective across the forum time zones and all for YOUR benefit.
Tenth
There is no one individual bigger than us PPRuNers collectively, expect perhaps the despot that has the final say.
We do not need a thread acknowledging these Ten Thingy's, just get on with it and we'll work it out as we go along. With thanks to the D & G forum moderators for drawing this up.
Happy PPRuNing and the compliments of the season to you all.
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
I have decided to make a change to this statement in light of new information presented to me. Whilst I singled out Lu Zuckerman by name I still maintain the warning about defammatory or libelous statements and his post was the one that had to be edited because of such a statement. I retract the allegation that he was banned from Just Helicopters and instead left because it was unmoderated.
Also, I have to add that some others, knowing that Lu is easily goaded have only themselves to blame by their own descent into some very coarse insults which only detracts from what would otherwise be technicaly interesting debates. So just to avoid any misunderstanding I place equal blame for the inability to maintain a mature discussion on those who respond to points of disagreement with insults and only serve to fuel what eventually appears to the rest of us as a bunch of undisciplined egos embarrasing themselves in public.
As was pointed out, it takes two to tango.
To make it easy I will repeat it here and also include the other nine 'commandments' that set out our general policy in moderating these forums:
These are not subject to debate and no correspondence will be entered into.
A reiteration of guidelines.
First
You click the accept button to get in here after agreeing to the following;
[quote]Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at PPRuNe do not actively monitor the contents of and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary. This is a manual process however, so please realize that we may not be able to remove or edit particular messages immediately.
You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB.
Although this BB does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at this BB reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold harmless PPRuNe, Madrona Park, Inc. (the makers of the bulletin board software), and their agents with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s).
We at this BB also reserve the right to reveal your identity (or whatever information we know about you) in the event of a complaint or legal action arising from any message posted by you.
Please note that advertisements, chain letters, pyramid schemes, and solicitations are inappropriate on this BB.<hr></blockquote>
Second
The moderator will decide what, when and where is appropriate as far as posts are concerned, this BB is run as fairly as is possible, but, given the ethical and legal responsibilities demanded it is NOT a democracy and does not respond well to demands for this or that ‘right’ especially when it violates another’s ‘right’.
Third
We assume that PPRuNers are grown-ups capable of reading the newspapers for information publicly available and do not need to be fed an hourly diet of "news" items.
If they are PPRuNing then they are capable of accessing the Internet news services for this purpose, if they are too lazy to do so then it is their loss but not our responsibility. Apart from all of the foregoing it consumes bandwidth and makes it all run slower than it needs be.
By tradition and in so far as is necessary, some people have provided, without comment, an “appropriate” news service and we hope will continue to do so. If it is felt necessary to point to a worthy news item then a LINK to it will suffice AND will not therefore violate the principle of copyright belonging to the originator or consume PPRuNe bandwidth. Any “news” items posted forthwith without attribution to the originator will be deleted.
Fourth
Hijacking of threads has become the norm rather than the exception. The moderator must take some responsibility for not policing this as vigorously as is possible. Individual PPRuNers have the right to pursue a thread subject without it being hijacked to some other agenda. This will be policed more vigorously forthwith.
Spamming of the forum by an individual with 'interesting' news and views, albeit well intentioned, actually has the opposite effect and inhibits full and free participation
Fifth
Some feel compelled to have "absolutely the last word" or "be vindicated" on a thread topic regardless of other posters views. This causes threads to become long and tediously repetitious and WILL cause its premature closure to the detriment of others. We provide a forum for the exchange of rumour, news and views of matters aviation NOT a venue for the imposition of personal agenda. This violation of individual rights will not be tolerated.
Moderators are the friend of EVERY PPRuNer equally on all forums without fear or favour, as we should be with each other, unless they breach the bounds of decency and civility. A difference of opinion in civilized company should not necessarily invoke or provoke instant hostility.
We, like many, are a little tired of the "if you cant see the rightness of my argument then I feel sorry for you, because I am trying to help you" routine. Argue your point on the issue in a civilized manner, accept that there may be different views from yours and get on with it. We will all then, at the very least learn something beyond mere polemics.
Sixth
Thread subjects outside matters to do with aviation in any forum will be sent elsewhere to a more appropriate forum or deleted. Again we assume that if you are a 'grown-up' and reasonably computer literate you will know how to look after yourself and computer insofar as virus or other matters, which in any event are dealt with in the Computer & Internet Forum. This is an aviation forum frequented by, we hope, responsible professional adult aviators who should not need and do not want their hands held in these matters.
Seventh
Whilst the motivation may be well intentioned, it is the moderators, NOT individual PPRuNers task to chide or otherwise bring into line, errant posters if it is necessary to do so. Threads originated to plead with fellow PPRuNers to lay off are self-fulfilling prophesies in attracting further examples of that for which they plead. They are not relevant, raise the moderator workload and will be deleted.
Eighth
We moderate these forums as a service to fellow PPRuNers and to help keep this whole wonderful thing right way up for everyone. It takes valuable time and effort, given ungrudgingly, but time and effort nonetheless. We are just ordinary people, with busy lives that extends well beyond the boundaries of these forums who have volunteered (been press-ganged ) into continuing to moderate some of the more difficult forums. It would be very easy to just pull the plug, but it has agreed that whilst we keep it under control it can continue. We will continue to do so whilst it is worthwhile.
Ninth
FYI, and we don’t think we’ll have to kill you by telling you this but, the 'royal we', are many, dedicated to and in the interests of spreading the load, bringing a broader perspective across the forum time zones and all for YOUR benefit.
Tenth
There is no one individual bigger than us PPRuNers collectively, expect perhaps the despot that has the final say.
We do not need a thread acknowledging these Ten Thingy's, just get on with it and we'll work it out as we go along. With thanks to the D & G forum moderators for drawing this up.
Happy PPRuNing and the compliments of the season to you all.
[ 23 December 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>
