Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind (Merged)
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I freelanced for about 8 years before getting a job employed I always got paid late anything between 3 months - 1 year.
My advice is take a photocopy of the tec-logs for all the flights you do just in case you end up having to take a company to court.
My advice is take a photocopy of the tec-logs for all the flights you do just in case you end up having to take a company to court.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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What has annoyed me in the past with regard to dealings with late paying flying training organisations is the fact that these companies are either paid directly by the student on the day of the exercise, or more likely a large chunk of 'up-front' money is already sitting in their piggy bank on 'account' - earning them interest. We won't mention the Trial Flight paid-up-front Gift Vouchers which are taken 6 months later.
Likewise where aircraft hire is concerned, I have always settled up before leaving the airfield. So it is not as if the flying school/company is waiting for the student/PPL hirer to pay in 90 days or whatever they feel they can spin it out to, before grudgingly paying the instructor for his invaluable services.
Likewise where aircraft hire is concerned, I have always settled up before leaving the airfield. So it is not as if the flying school/company is waiting for the student/PPL hirer to pay in 90 days or whatever they feel they can spin it out to, before grudgingly paying the instructor for his invaluable services.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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I can only hope this dispute is settled justly. Smaller operators tend to take this line of no responsibility if they're treading the fine wire of solvency, I can only add that I had the misfortune of dealing with the same operator financially, as have several colleagues and we all came away with grievances of various kinds. Excuses were long winded and pathetic in most cases. Fly by night indeed!
Join Date: Aug 2004
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wake up and smell the coffee!!!
sad to hear sombody bleating on about how they have been done wrong and just how things aint right. cant see what the fuss is all about, surley you must have got into aviation with your eyes wide open and knew there would be highs and lows, and i dont for one minute think that were not there at trough feeding away merrily on a high day. may sound simple but why not try a bit harder working with them instead of panning them on the net and just maybe the cash will come in and you can get a share....
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Nobody likes late payment, but sometimes it's a necessary evil.
If you're running a company, particularly start-ups, and employing staff, you have a responsibility to the staff who have often sacrificed better paid jobs to get in at the start with you. Yes you can get to 30th of the month, hit the overdraft limit and declare yourself insolvent. But you owe it to your staff and yourself to do better than that.
So you can (typically) wait a short time for the few clients who haven't paid you to cough up, and milk the cash flow to keep things going.
There is a difference between doing this in a calculated way using funds you can reasonably expect to get in, and ordering stuff from people when you have no rational hope of getting through the next few months. It's also wrong to withhold from people who will suffer unduly through the delay.
If cash flow is squeezed, I tend to pay my smallest (in size) suppliers first and let the big boys wait. However if any supplier came to me and said 'I really need this' I would hand over a cheque immediately. My normal tactic is simply to wait until the supplier calls me to ask for a cheque, which I then give him, but it can extend payment by one to two weeks, sometimes more.
Even the VAT & tax men understand that. Call them, explain where you are and they can be very accomodating.
If you've been there & done it building a company with fabulous financial resources, then you can pat yourself on the back. It's easy if you have loads of cash.
If, like most of us, you have just about enough and done it the hard way, losing sleep and taking calculated risks, I'll pat *you* on the back!
BW
If you're running a company, particularly start-ups, and employing staff, you have a responsibility to the staff who have often sacrificed better paid jobs to get in at the start with you. Yes you can get to 30th of the month, hit the overdraft limit and declare yourself insolvent. But you owe it to your staff and yourself to do better than that.
So you can (typically) wait a short time for the few clients who haven't paid you to cough up, and milk the cash flow to keep things going.
There is a difference between doing this in a calculated way using funds you can reasonably expect to get in, and ordering stuff from people when you have no rational hope of getting through the next few months. It's also wrong to withhold from people who will suffer unduly through the delay.
If cash flow is squeezed, I tend to pay my smallest (in size) suppliers first and let the big boys wait. However if any supplier came to me and said 'I really need this' I would hand over a cheque immediately. My normal tactic is simply to wait until the supplier calls me to ask for a cheque, which I then give him, but it can extend payment by one to two weeks, sometimes more.
Even the VAT & tax men understand that. Call them, explain where you are and they can be very accomodating.
If you've been there & done it building a company with fabulous financial resources, then you can pat yourself on the back. It's easy if you have loads of cash.
If, like most of us, you have just about enough and done it the hard way, losing sleep and taking calculated risks, I'll pat *you* on the back!
BW
Join Date: Jul 2005
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I say again..............
It is quite wrong to name names in a forum of this type. The party named has no reasonable reply and has, sensibly, refrained from entering into this dispute here.
Let me add that as free-lance pilots/instructors you have not been denied your wages/salary by a Company for whom you have worked. You have become just another supplier submitting his/her invoice and as such join the queue. I don't condone late payment but have to accept it as a part of normal business trading. Where I employ people the wages bill is the single most important thing....that is just good sense. Where I use free-lancers and when I work as a free-lance I accept payment may well be significantly delayed.
A free-lancer has effectively set him/herself up in business rather than taking employment; by doing so he/she must accept the exigencies of business trading.
It is quite wrong to name names in a forum of this type. The party named has no reasonable reply and has, sensibly, refrained from entering into this dispute here.
Let me add that as free-lance pilots/instructors you have not been denied your wages/salary by a Company for whom you have worked. You have become just another supplier submitting his/her invoice and as such join the queue. I don't condone late payment but have to accept it as a part of normal business trading. Where I employ people the wages bill is the single most important thing....that is just good sense. Where I use free-lancers and when I work as a free-lance I accept payment may well be significantly delayed.
A free-lancer has effectively set him/herself up in business rather than taking employment; by doing so he/she must accept the exigencies of business trading.
If one cannot....will not... pay one's just debts as promised in the original agreement...then one needs to get out of business. As one's reputation grows for such late/non-payment... that will surely happen anyway.
One of my Golden Rules is simply put....stiff me on pay....first time shame on you....second time....shame on me.
Second Golden Rule....Never let an English Gentleman owe you money. That was taught me by an English Gentleman.
One of my Golden Rules is simply put....stiff me on pay....first time shame on you....second time....shame on me.
Second Golden Rule....Never let an English Gentleman owe you money. That was taught me by an English Gentleman.
Join Date: Mar 2000
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I'm sorry, but alot of this, "you should wait and just be patient" is a load of nonsense.
If you have worked for someone as a free-lance instructor, then you should be paid on time. You have done the work and the school has received payment for your time, so why should the individual be forced to wait.
It is not a case of giving payment to the most needy first. If you owe money, then pay it. If you cannot afford it, then you are living on borrowed time, because there will be someone eventually who comes along who won't accept this or you will get an unscheduled bill for a maintenance problem and you will go down. Simple as that.
This industry (aviation as a whole not just Heli's) is littered with companies who have shafted people and then gone under themselves, the key seems to be, don't run it so close to the wind that you can get into trouble easily, you are only fooling yourself. Margins are tight, but be sensible.
I am speaking as both a free-lancer and someone who is responsible of the continued survival of an aviation business.
If you have worked for someone as a free-lance instructor, then you should be paid on time. You have done the work and the school has received payment for your time, so why should the individual be forced to wait.
It is not a case of giving payment to the most needy first. If you owe money, then pay it. If you cannot afford it, then you are living on borrowed time, because there will be someone eventually who comes along who won't accept this or you will get an unscheduled bill for a maintenance problem and you will go down. Simple as that.
This industry (aviation as a whole not just Heli's) is littered with companies who have shafted people and then gone under themselves, the key seems to be, don't run it so close to the wind that you can get into trouble easily, you are only fooling yourself. Margins are tight, but be sensible.
I am speaking as both a free-lancer and someone who is responsible of the continued survival of an aviation business.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Lads lads listen,
This is gone into way to much detail for a website!! Look if you go into freelance you know what the risks are. If you can`t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen. If you always want things wages wise to go smoothly go and work in a factory on a production line. The helicopter business is totally different. You knew that from day1 when you got into it. Who can you tell me ever made it by getting stuff easy. I feel for the subject of this story but i am sure you will get whats due to you. I know the people at dragon myself very well and had a disagreement with them at onetime. It was sorted professionally and not by either of us trying to tarnish the other ones name. That is just not right. They are a company like all others and as said you are your own company and not an employee. Big difference They wait to be paid just like you. They told you will get your money and I am sure you will. So for the record I have no connection with Dragon at this time and this is an independent comment. Get on with your business as your a very good groundschool instructor. (I know, ive been your student). And remember "LIFE`S A BITCH!!!!!"
This is gone into way to much detail for a website!! Look if you go into freelance you know what the risks are. If you can`t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen. If you always want things wages wise to go smoothly go and work in a factory on a production line. The helicopter business is totally different. You knew that from day1 when you got into it. Who can you tell me ever made it by getting stuff easy. I feel for the subject of this story but i am sure you will get whats due to you. I know the people at dragon myself very well and had a disagreement with them at onetime. It was sorted professionally and not by either of us trying to tarnish the other ones name. That is just not right. They are a company like all others and as said you are your own company and not an employee. Big difference They wait to be paid just like you. They told you will get your money and I am sure you will. So for the record I have no connection with Dragon at this time and this is an independent comment. Get on with your business as your a very good groundschool instructor. (I know, ive been your student). And remember "LIFE`S A BITCH!!!!!"
Wee Man
What a load of nonsense. It's because of people like you Wee Man that this particular part of the helicopter industry is in a bad state and pilots get abused left right and centre. Regardless of whether you are working freelance or not if a contract is made it should be honoured. No one is talking about getting stuff easy, this man is only asking for what he is due! If you and others think that being screwed around is part and parcel of being a helicopter pilot then the industry will never change.
Even though I don't agree with going public and posting this issue on a forum I nonetheless think that it is absolutely right that Pugzi should go to the small claims court to settle the matter. This way the company in question will hopefully realize that they cannot operate this way.
Look if you go into freelance you know what the risks are. If you can`t stand the heat get the hell out of the kitchen. If you always want things wages wise to go smoothly go and work in a factory on a production line. The helicopter business is totally different. You knew that from day1 when you got into it. Who can you tell me ever made it by getting stuff easy...... And remember "LIFE`S A BITCH!!!!!
Even though I don't agree with going public and posting this issue on a forum I nonetheless think that it is absolutely right that Pugzi should go to the small claims court to settle the matter. This way the company in question will hopefully realize that they cannot operate this way.
Join Date: May 2001
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Having worked as a freelancer for a long time, the best thing really is like my previous poster says; be on top of the money, if you send them a bill start calling straight away for getting YOUR money, and if not after a couple of days quit.
In the case of being a freelance instructor get paid the same day is really the best solution in aviation. That way the amount is relatively low and it hurts less for the employer.
It happens in every business but you cannot trust anyone wit your money.
I also do agree that we shouldn't call names in this case, and it probably won't help in anyway.
* Something what really works is just to go there and tell them you won't leave before you've got your money. If they still don't pay come back next day. Never ever go to court it will only stall the payment for a very long time.
In the case of being a freelance instructor get paid the same day is really the best solution in aviation. That way the amount is relatively low and it hurts less for the employer.
It happens in every business but you cannot trust anyone wit your money.
I also do agree that we shouldn't call names in this case, and it probably won't help in anyway.
* Something what really works is just to go there and tell them you won't leave before you've got your money. If they still don't pay come back next day. Never ever go to court it will only stall the payment for a very long time.
Join Date: Sep 2004
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Woolf!!!
When did ever mention im being skrewed around. I DIDN`T. I told you I had business with Dragon and we sorted it professionally. Now on top of that. Its not just in the heli part of the world that people work like this. You ask any tradesman do they always get paid on time and they will tell you, you are mad. It might not be totally right but thats how it works. You go out on your own to make more money that means you don`t always get it on time. As been said by wesp, stay on top of it. Don`t come whinging to us on a website. Get your arse down to Dragon and get paid... And as for pugsy not getting paid the only reason I put a reply on here is because I know he will get paid. Dragon are one of the good ones. He has dragged there name through the mud and for that he has only hurt himself. All you law buffs out there tell us has he jepordised his case for going so public and naming names. I`m sure Dragon have seen this and if his story is not 100% true he himself could be in alot of trouble.
When did ever mention im being skrewed around. I DIDN`T. I told you I had business with Dragon and we sorted it professionally. Now on top of that. Its not just in the heli part of the world that people work like this. You ask any tradesman do they always get paid on time and they will tell you, you are mad. It might not be totally right but thats how it works. You go out on your own to make more money that means you don`t always get it on time. As been said by wesp, stay on top of it. Don`t come whinging to us on a website. Get your arse down to Dragon and get paid... And as for pugsy not getting paid the only reason I put a reply on here is because I know he will get paid. Dragon are one of the good ones. He has dragged there name through the mud and for that he has only hurt himself. All you law buffs out there tell us has he jepordised his case for going so public and naming names. I`m sure Dragon have seen this and if his story is not 100% true he himself could be in alot of trouble.
Join Date: Oct 2005
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read a law book
Its been some time, since I studied English Law, however it might be worth, looking into, the fact, that, as long as you honestly believe, that a person owes you money, you should be able to,
take something equal to the amount owed.
Pop into a good book shop and read up the definition, or ask a Police Officer the latest definition, if its still current, take something of equal value, obviously to be returned, in same condition upon payment, DO NOT TAKE THIS AS GOSPIL, just a thought
take something equal to the amount owed.
Pop into a good book shop and read up the definition, or ask a Police Officer the latest definition, if its still current, take something of equal value, obviously to be returned, in same condition upon payment, DO NOT TAKE THIS AS GOSPIL, just a thought
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
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I believe it's called the Romalpa Clause and it's a clause that one can put into a contract for the supply of goods before the goods are delivered. Not convinced they are worth the paper they are written on but if it's not in your Terms and Conditions before you supply, then you don't stand a snowball's. I also believe that it applies to goods only.
The only thing you can do, is to put something into a contract for services that could protect but it's unlikely a customer would be prepared to sign it.
Small claims, garnishee order - way to go!
Cheers
Whirls
The only thing you can do, is to put something into a contract for services that could protect but it's unlikely a customer would be prepared to sign it.
Small claims, garnishee order - way to go!
Cheers
Whirls
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Re: Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind
What sort? There are different types of insolvency; winding-up/liquidation/receivership/administration.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Re: Dragon helicopters...make up your own mind
Shame, they were the only company I know of that were doing the CPL(H) course.
Very nearly parted with the dosh for the next course so probably saved but now where do I go?
Very nearly parted with the dosh for the next course so probably saved but now where do I go?