Flying Offshore at Night
Thread Starter
Flying Offshore at Night
Its that time of year again, but now it would seem, more night flying that ever. At 5 O'Clock at night, there are still 5 or 6 flights going outbound.
Are we so well legislated, that we can conduct offshore flights at night safely, or do we just get away with it more often than not ?
Any thoughts ?
Are we so well legislated, that we can conduct offshore flights at night safely, or do we just get away with it more often than not ?
Any thoughts ?
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What is your problem with night flying offshore, as I don't understand your quote "or do we just get away with it more often than not ?"
It is perfectly safe as the limits are slightly higher than day flying and we are all well trained. If you have a problem night flying see your training department or perhaps go day VFR
332M
It is perfectly safe as the limits are slightly higher than day flying and we are all well trained. If you have a problem night flying see your training department or perhaps go day VFR
332M
Thread Starter
My problems ............. Well let me see.
Yes limits are extended to allow for greater visibility, higher transit heights etc. But none of that is going to make it any safer to land on a sparsley lit oil platform at night. Let alone a boat or vessel.
Are you trying to tell me the limits being any greater are going to help you land with very limited and sometimes deceptive visual cues, or that they are going to make me feel any better when I know I'm sitting next to a relative newbie co-pilot, and I can feel my buttocks clenching so hard, I dare say, I could snap a pencil ??
My son also flies offshore now (as a passenger) and I can't deny, even having the inside knowledge into the business, I feel a greater concern for his welfare when they are flying at night, than I do during the day - By that simple fact alone, I can be sure that my inner concience feels that it just isn't as safe flying at night.
332Mistress, you have an enviable confidence in your abilities (and those that you fly with), but I'm sure there may be others that have some empathy with my opinion - Or maybe I should retire now before I totally lose the plot !
Yes limits are extended to allow for greater visibility, higher transit heights etc. But none of that is going to make it any safer to land on a sparsley lit oil platform at night. Let alone a boat or vessel.
Are you trying to tell me the limits being any greater are going to help you land with very limited and sometimes deceptive visual cues, or that they are going to make me feel any better when I know I'm sitting next to a relative newbie co-pilot, and I can feel my buttocks clenching so hard, I dare say, I could snap a pencil ??
My son also flies offshore now (as a passenger) and I can't deny, even having the inside knowledge into the business, I feel a greater concern for his welfare when they are flying at night, than I do during the day - By that simple fact alone, I can be sure that my inner concience feels that it just isn't as safe flying at night.
332Mistress, you have an enviable confidence in your abilities (and those that you fly with), but I'm sure there may be others that have some empathy with my opinion - Or maybe I should retire now before I totally lose the plot !
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Special 25,
Maybe you're becoming more aware of your mortality & therefore concerned about reaching the finishing post in one piece!
What do the statistics show with regard to night flying offshore, perhaps a contribution from CAA/SRG might be in order.?Certainly your chances of survival could be enhanced if you are flying with the benefit of a 3/4 axis autopilot with coupler(F/D) & HISL(high intensity strobe lights). The reality is there are a considerable number of machines currently flying the N.Sea without this equipment. One could be forgiven for thinking the regulator might have made this eqpt. mandatory especially after the Scillies S61 accident & several brushes with tornado's (the F3 variant) with offshore/pipelining helis.
regards, airspeed alive
Maybe you're becoming more aware of your mortality & therefore concerned about reaching the finishing post in one piece!
What do the statistics show with regard to night flying offshore, perhaps a contribution from CAA/SRG might be in order.?Certainly your chances of survival could be enhanced if you are flying with the benefit of a 3/4 axis autopilot with coupler(F/D) & HISL(high intensity strobe lights). The reality is there are a considerable number of machines currently flying the N.Sea without this equipment. One could be forgiven for thinking the regulator might have made this eqpt. mandatory especially after the Scillies S61 accident & several brushes with tornado's (the F3 variant) with offshore/pipelining helis.
regards, airspeed alive
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Certainly not much fun
The prospect of a night landing on a moonless night an a little 'flat-top' in the SNS in the pouring rain when the copilot is the only one who can see the landing area is not one that can fill anyone with glee. When it's just one of 15 landings on an evening shuttle it then becomes daunting.
Thank god for rad alts - we didn't even have those in the 105s during the 80s but struggled on regardless. The 'stab' system was three green lights that were either on or off but you had trouble feeling the difference - good old Ferranti!
These days a Rad Ht hold is a blessing and lets you relax a little on a busy shuttle.
What are the stats? Here in Brazil they banned offshore ops at night after an accident. Were they right or were they wrong?
I did my apprentiship in an ASW Wessex and count my blessings, many others may not have the benefit of so many nights spent below 200' and landing on stuff with a bit of rock and roll. Certainly I can say that night ops are not something to enthuse about
Thank god for rad alts - we didn't even have those in the 105s during the 80s but struggled on regardless. The 'stab' system was three green lights that were either on or off but you had trouble feeling the difference - good old Ferranti!
These days a Rad Ht hold is a blessing and lets you relax a little on a busy shuttle.
What are the stats? Here in Brazil they banned offshore ops at night after an accident. Were they right or were they wrong?
I did my apprentiship in an ASW Wessex and count my blessings, many others may not have the benefit of so many nights spent below 200' and landing on stuff with a bit of rock and roll. Certainly I can say that night ops are not something to enthuse about
Special 25
One of you "problems" may be a lack of confidence due to a lack of practice. Some oil companies insist that any crew that flies for them at night has to be night current which is a very good idea.
I am "lucky" I suppose in that I do about 600 night landings, to a variety of manned and unmanned platforms, each winter and therefore feel very comfortable at night. In fact I would rather shuttle at night than at the absolute day VFR min. My background also includes a lot of low level night flying in appalling weather which helps.
You talk about sparsely lit platforms but have you done anything about them? The smaller rigs in the SNS were improved with leg floodlights after pressure from the pilots.
The problems with inexperienced copilots can cause the odd "moment" but a good stabilised approach which you can monitor usually ends with a good landing.
I have noticed the increase in night departures so perhaps as more of us do night landings it will become more routine.
HF
One of you "problems" may be a lack of confidence due to a lack of practice. Some oil companies insist that any crew that flies for them at night has to be night current which is a very good idea.
I am "lucky" I suppose in that I do about 600 night landings, to a variety of manned and unmanned platforms, each winter and therefore feel very comfortable at night. In fact I would rather shuttle at night than at the absolute day VFR min. My background also includes a lot of low level night flying in appalling weather which helps.
You talk about sparsely lit platforms but have you done anything about them? The smaller rigs in the SNS were improved with leg floodlights after pressure from the pilots.
The problems with inexperienced copilots can cause the odd "moment" but a good stabilised approach which you can monitor usually ends with a good landing.
I have noticed the increase in night departures so perhaps as more of us do night landings it will become more routine.
HF
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Whoa boys!Whoa!
First off, Special25, what a/c are you flying?
We should be fair because not all of us are flying twin engine, auto pilot, radalt.....equipped a/c. Maybe special25 is blasting off with his jetranger at full gross in the dark......... geez, now I'm scared!!!!
Little more info dude????
DK.
First off, Special25, what a/c are you flying?
We should be fair because not all of us are flying twin engine, auto pilot, radalt.....equipped a/c. Maybe special25 is blasting off with his jetranger at full gross in the dark......... geez, now I'm scared!!!!
Little more info dude????
DK.
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Landing at night offshore is not a problem. Getting to a position from which to safely make that landing is the key, in my experience the main problem is arriving with too much airspeed and getting into problems with extreme attitude changes abeam the deck. Pitter-patter is the key!
And of course training.
And experience.
And bottle!
Wiz
And of course training.
And experience.
And bottle!
Wiz
Thread Starter
OK, I'm obviously a wimp - I am flying the all powerful, twin engine, 'Alt Hold' equipped Super Puma. But admitedly, the aircraft is great for the job. I've got lots of time flying around single pilot at night, even a fair bit single engine back in a past life, and it never really bothered me much.
Maybe it is my impeding mortality as someone kindly pointed out, but I do feel offshore, things are different - Over land, there is no problem. Out in the middle of the sea, you can have some beautiful nights on which it is a joy to fly. I just feel there are too many occasions when the viz isn't so good, the platforms are of course lit up like a Christmas tree, but just your luck on those nights, the wind has you pointing away from the platform, looking out into nowhere.
Having read my previous message, I hope nobody thinks that I am knocking new co-pilots. I am always genuinely impressed with the standard of new guys coming through, but like hovering, you can't be taught it, you just have to build up experience and it takes a while to be comfortable.
Certainly, we don't do enough of it, and I was never one of those to be based offshore, where I know they got very comfortable with night flying. Like most oil-support pilots, for 8 months of the year we don't fly at night at all, then suddenly you have to get yourself back up to speed again.
I've been around for a few accidents in the UK, and a couple were directly related to night flying, a couple of close calls at night, and I can think of at least two ditchings, that were perfectly successful, but I worry they would have had a very different outcome had it been dark. I can't help but think - Why ? Even up in the Shetlands and the worst time of winter, there are still 7 or 8 good hours of daylight to get the flights done. As someone above said, it just took an accident in Brazil for them to stop night operations, and I think, if we had another big accident here, people would perhaps be surprised at what we do at night. I just don't want us to get to that stage.
Maybe it is my impeding mortality as someone kindly pointed out, but I do feel offshore, things are different - Over land, there is no problem. Out in the middle of the sea, you can have some beautiful nights on which it is a joy to fly. I just feel there are too many occasions when the viz isn't so good, the platforms are of course lit up like a Christmas tree, but just your luck on those nights, the wind has you pointing away from the platform, looking out into nowhere.
Having read my previous message, I hope nobody thinks that I am knocking new co-pilots. I am always genuinely impressed with the standard of new guys coming through, but like hovering, you can't be taught it, you just have to build up experience and it takes a while to be comfortable.
Certainly, we don't do enough of it, and I was never one of those to be based offshore, where I know they got very comfortable with night flying. Like most oil-support pilots, for 8 months of the year we don't fly at night at all, then suddenly you have to get yourself back up to speed again.
I've been around for a few accidents in the UK, and a couple were directly related to night flying, a couple of close calls at night, and I can think of at least two ditchings, that were perfectly successful, but I worry they would have had a very different outcome had it been dark. I can't help but think - Why ? Even up in the Shetlands and the worst time of winter, there are still 7 or 8 good hours of daylight to get the flights done. As someone above said, it just took an accident in Brazil for them to stop night operations, and I think, if we had another big accident here, people would perhaps be surprised at what we do at night. I just don't want us to get to that stage.
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Sorry ...I'm a bit confused .... If your flogging around the traps in a 332 I have to assume the company your working for know what your / their doing ... your obviously in the Northern Hemisphere so where abouts are you operating ??
I also assume your operation is IFR ... so ????
I also assume your operation is IFR ... so ????
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Does anyone believe that airlines would have the safety record they do if they allowed operations as close to the edge as a night rig landing?
The reliance on judgement and skill needed to hover the craft to the deck is awesome, and likely to produce poor results in a small but consequential portion of the approaches performed. It is exactly hard enough to make that true, and just easy enough to blame the pilot if it goes wrong.
It is time for our industry to recognize this, and fix it. I have flown, 15 years ago, control systems that make the night rig landing cake for a housewife, let alone a trained professional. The aircraft held position absolutely, rigidly, like SAR doppler hover on steroids, and could be hand flown to the landing without caring a whit about the wind, the horizon or the cues. Why do we not have proper introduction for these solutions in the civil environment? Why when I try to raise the need for advanced fly by wire controls among the manufacturers do they tell me, "The customer pilots don't want it?"
Why is safety automatically assumed to be a subject for ernest talks with pilots prior to flight?
Why do I ask so many rhetorical questions?
The reliance on judgement and skill needed to hover the craft to the deck is awesome, and likely to produce poor results in a small but consequential portion of the approaches performed. It is exactly hard enough to make that true, and just easy enough to blame the pilot if it goes wrong.
It is time for our industry to recognize this, and fix it. I have flown, 15 years ago, control systems that make the night rig landing cake for a housewife, let alone a trained professional. The aircraft held position absolutely, rigidly, like SAR doppler hover on steroids, and could be hand flown to the landing without caring a whit about the wind, the horizon or the cues. Why do we not have proper introduction for these solutions in the civil environment? Why when I try to raise the need for advanced fly by wire controls among the manufacturers do they tell me, "The customer pilots don't want it?"
Why is safety automatically assumed to be a subject for ernest talks with pilots prior to flight?
Why do I ask so many rhetorical questions?
Hi Nick
Now just hold on I don't want a system that
" make the night rig landing cake for a housewife"
otherwise her in doors might want to do it and leave me with the kids
HF
Now just hold on I don't want a system that
" make the night rig landing cake for a housewife"
otherwise her in doors might want to do it and leave me with the kids
HF
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I've spent the last several years flying almost exclusively offshore at night, almost all of it in 412s and S76s with no augmentation at all. All the nice equipment Nick mentions would be very gratefully accepted by me or anyone I've ever flown with. We aren't the ones who are declining it, it's the cheapskate bastards who are paying our salaries who won't pay for any fancy equipment. Landing an S76 on a platform with 4 dim lights, one in each corner, on an overcast dark night with no other lights within miles is not the easiest thing I've ever done with my pants on or off, and it takes concentration, practice, and lots of faith in the guy in the other seat. I'll gladly accept any electronic help I can get. The problem is selling it to the boss, who just figure it's more expensive equipment to maintain, and we're getting by without it now, right?
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GLS,
Let's all work together then, because it is about time. The effort I made to try to get those controls in the civil S92 fell on deaf ears because there was no customer input.
SASless, are you there? Let's set up a Skype seession, and I can explain exactly what I mean about the new control laws.
BTW the FBW controls are CHEAPER than the mechanical controls and they save over 150 lbs of payload, too. The computers are more expensive, but the 200 lbs of precision machining in the rods and mixer are completely eliminated!
If you want to set up a Skype conference call seminar, lets try to arrange a mutual time and I will chair the meeting. Anyone who wants, add me to your Skype list, I am rotorhead101
Or lets just complain a lot!
Let's all work together then, because it is about time. The effort I made to try to get those controls in the civil S92 fell on deaf ears because there was no customer input.
SASless, are you there? Let's set up a Skype seession, and I can explain exactly what I mean about the new control laws.
BTW the FBW controls are CHEAPER than the mechanical controls and they save over 150 lbs of payload, too. The computers are more expensive, but the 200 lbs of precision machining in the rods and mixer are completely eliminated!
If you want to set up a Skype conference call seminar, lets try to arrange a mutual time and I will chair the meeting. Anyone who wants, add me to your Skype list, I am rotorhead101
Or lets just complain a lot!
I am with you all on improvements to the facilities for night flying to helidecks. However, there are a number of improvements already available for deck lighting and it is there where the first push should take place. See the report at this site:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2004_01.PDF
In particular read the pilot's survey on the workload for night operations.
Fly-by-wire will be a great advance as it has the potential to give an improvement in handling and consistency to the look-and-feel - just observe what has been achieved with the Airbus fleet. However, that is a medium/long term goal; that is not to say that we should not press for early introduction but it will not impact on offshore operations in the immediate future (remember that the S92 was the only helicopter certificated to FAR 29 in the last 30 years).
There should be a push to improve offshore lighting as that has the potential to give the best bang-for-buck in the immediate time scale.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAPAP2004_01.PDF
In particular read the pilot's survey on the workload for night operations.
Fly-by-wire will be a great advance as it has the potential to give an improvement in handling and consistency to the look-and-feel - just observe what has been achieved with the Airbus fleet. However, that is a medium/long term goal; that is not to say that we should not press for early introduction but it will not impact on offshore operations in the immediate future (remember that the S92 was the only helicopter certificated to FAR 29 in the last 30 years).
There should be a push to improve offshore lighting as that has the potential to give the best bang-for-buck in the immediate time scale.
Thread Starter
I'm glad that we at last have responses from pilots who agree that landing offshore at night is potentially difficult / dangerous - At first there seemed to be so many responses from crews who felt it was perfectly normal and safe, that I was beginning to doubt myself.
Having landed at night a couple of times this week, I was trying to analyse all the things that make it such hard work, and draw the following conclusions ..........
Lack of local visible landmarks ie surface, other platforms, takes away your straight and level references, and limits your appreciation of closure until the last stages of approach.
Mixture of Instrument and Visual approach is required, carrying out an 'Approach by Numbers' at the beggining using GPS, and reverting to visual approach for landing, and a mixture of looking in and out during that ugly middle bit ! Not neccessarily a problem - Similar to what we do during a Radar Approach, but at night we seem to have one pilot doing both rolls rather than handing over control.
The state of aircraft windows, always covered with a layer of grime and possibly salt from the days flying so far. Even if you get them cleaned inside and out, on a shuttle on a windy day, they invariably get covered in salt spray etc that just absorbs and spreads the light from an offshore installation. The Super Puma windows in particular seem worse than any other aircraft I have flown at night. Their curved profile seems to bend light from outside (especially when mixed with a bit of streaming rain water) and reflect the lights from inside. It does seem bizarre that in 2005, we're sticking our heads out of a door window, just to see where we're going !!
Hovering at night is a bit of an aquired art. When training new students to hover, we get them looking far out across a field getting an appreciation of relative movement. As we get experienced those reference points can move in, and I know many SAR pilots that can hold a good hover with a small light in the chin bubble. But we all know that those sort of stable hovers can go horribly wrong, and quickly. I find that it isn't just new co-pilots, but also senior pilots that hold a fairly wobbly hover over a poorly lit deck without much to look at (ie pointing out to sea), which is why I was so surprised to find so many positive thoughts about deck operations at night.
I particularly welcome the response by Nick (who's input is beyond doubt) and GLSNightPilot who shows that even after years of night flying experience (which in my opinion is the only way to have any sort of safety an night) is also concerned about how little pilot assistance there is during night operations. I am sure the passengers would be surprised to learn how little technical input there is in a night landing offshore and how different such an approach is from one during the day. They are putting their lives basically in the hands of one pilot and we are all subject to making mistakes - mistakes that won't neccessarily be picked up by the other crew member who is often entirely unsighted for the crucial part of the approach and landing.
We have given the North Sea offshore environment an impressively safe record for helicopter operations. Lets keep working to keep things safe.
Having landed at night a couple of times this week, I was trying to analyse all the things that make it such hard work, and draw the following conclusions ..........
Lack of local visible landmarks ie surface, other platforms, takes away your straight and level references, and limits your appreciation of closure until the last stages of approach.
Mixture of Instrument and Visual approach is required, carrying out an 'Approach by Numbers' at the beggining using GPS, and reverting to visual approach for landing, and a mixture of looking in and out during that ugly middle bit ! Not neccessarily a problem - Similar to what we do during a Radar Approach, but at night we seem to have one pilot doing both rolls rather than handing over control.
The state of aircraft windows, always covered with a layer of grime and possibly salt from the days flying so far. Even if you get them cleaned inside and out, on a shuttle on a windy day, they invariably get covered in salt spray etc that just absorbs and spreads the light from an offshore installation. The Super Puma windows in particular seem worse than any other aircraft I have flown at night. Their curved profile seems to bend light from outside (especially when mixed with a bit of streaming rain water) and reflect the lights from inside. It does seem bizarre that in 2005, we're sticking our heads out of a door window, just to see where we're going !!
Hovering at night is a bit of an aquired art. When training new students to hover, we get them looking far out across a field getting an appreciation of relative movement. As we get experienced those reference points can move in, and I know many SAR pilots that can hold a good hover with a small light in the chin bubble. But we all know that those sort of stable hovers can go horribly wrong, and quickly. I find that it isn't just new co-pilots, but also senior pilots that hold a fairly wobbly hover over a poorly lit deck without much to look at (ie pointing out to sea), which is why I was so surprised to find so many positive thoughts about deck operations at night.
I particularly welcome the response by Nick (who's input is beyond doubt) and GLSNightPilot who shows that even after years of night flying experience (which in my opinion is the only way to have any sort of safety an night) is also concerned about how little pilot assistance there is during night operations. I am sure the passengers would be surprised to learn how little technical input there is in a night landing offshore and how different such an approach is from one during the day. They are putting their lives basically in the hands of one pilot and we are all subject to making mistakes - mistakes that won't neccessarily be picked up by the other crew member who is often entirely unsighted for the crucial part of the approach and landing.
We have given the North Sea offshore environment an impressively safe record for helicopter operations. Lets keep working to keep things safe.
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Night Ops
In our work out here in Brazil we are running a programme of upgrades to the offshore helideck inventory and to help with briefing the non-aviators I have a little video clip of a landing carried out at night onto the Forties Echo. Twas in a 365 and the camera was a Fuji Finepix in video mode hand - held out of the LH DV window.
The reaction from the non aviators has always been a stunned silence, especially when I freeze the video just prior to the slide over the deck and they see how much you can't see...if that makes sense. Don't have any problems talking about 'obstacle environments' then.
Anybody who wants a copy to amuse their friends please PM me and I'll send you a copy.
Forgot to add that although night ops are not the norm we do have a fully equipped EMS machine (with doc) that is on Nt/Sby for emergencies.
G
have put this clip on YOUTUBE - click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLmjLHGQFY
The reaction from the non aviators has always been a stunned silence, especially when I freeze the video just prior to the slide over the deck and they see how much you can't see...if that makes sense. Don't have any problems talking about 'obstacle environments' then.
Anybody who wants a copy to amuse their friends please PM me and I'll send you a copy.
Forgot to add that although night ops are not the norm we do have a fully equipped EMS machine (with doc) that is on Nt/Sby for emergencies.
G
have put this clip on YOUTUBE - click here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZLmjLHGQFY
Last edited by Geoffersincornwall; 3rd Feb 2007 at 05:11.
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Have to agree with with wizzard here - absolute confidence in your IFR/night skills - your company must allow you to build this by practice! Nothing worse than feeling your heart thumping whilst on approach - only truly realise how much effort it takes after a very high level of skill is needed and you are in bed trying to sleep and rehashing the approach. Do not push your limits. Fly safe!
ps. worst time to fly an approach is actually not at night - but that time when sun is just under the horizon, lots of fog and your eyesight is working over time trying to adjust - again keep your ifr skills really sharp and keep the airspeed in control. Although not recommended keeping a very nice bottle waiting for the home run helps reduce the tension!
ps. worst time to fly an approach is actually not at night - but that time when sun is just under the horizon, lots of fog and your eyesight is working over time trying to adjust - again keep your ifr skills really sharp and keep the airspeed in control. Although not recommended keeping a very nice bottle waiting for the home run helps reduce the tension!
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It is not the operator's that we need to target to provide better equipment, it's the clients. An operator will only provide what the client wants, providing there's a profit. It is the client that we need to target, as they pay the bills.