Night Vision Goggles (NVG discussions merged)
The Exeter boys were cadging used batteries off the Junglies at Yeovilton to save money.
To think the English call the Scots tight?
others rising thru the system are much more proactive
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AA batteries ???
From Tesco ???
Don't the gogs ( Fenns ) used by EMASU, and approved by the CAA, only work off the expensive twin lithium "£10 a go and last about 30 hours" type
Coconutty
From Tesco ???
Don't the gogs ( Fenns ) used by EMASU, and approved by the CAA, only work off the expensive twin lithium "£10 a go and last about 30 hours" type
Coconutty
The ones I used at a US Government operation used plain old AA's....just like your mini-mag light. But...one has to remember...Father knows best about such things, right TC?
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NVG & EMS
Sitting in an Aviation Medicine refresher the other day and listening to the all important AME tasking lectures and Boyles Law and stuff and it occurred to me that the EMS world would benefit greatly from NVG/NVD usage (black hole night sun approach arguement already understood) especially when patients require to be flown as close to sea level as possibe due sucking chest wounds and FUBAR type injuries. This currently would be difficult at night given the current rules and regs for flight at LSALTS etc.
So my question to the greater aviation RWcommunity is who is going to strap on the 3 piece suit and sell the capability to CASA from a EMS life saving perspective. Vic Pol have been successful to date with NVG trial (not sure if air ambulance was included), and the folks at Adelaide on the Aust Helicopters contracts are rumoured to be looking at raising a NVG capability for EMS, Pol air work etc, which is why 90% of their last recruitment drive was ex mil NVG rated pilots.
Maybe its time to hang up the nomex and strap on the 3 piece suit, NVG/NVD would logically be the next step for EMS assuming the TRG is conducted appropriately and the ops manual caters for items like storage and security and ongoing check and Trg.
Hmmmmmmmm
Your thoughts Pruners????
Max
So my question to the greater aviation RWcommunity is who is going to strap on the 3 piece suit and sell the capability to CASA from a EMS life saving perspective. Vic Pol have been successful to date with NVG trial (not sure if air ambulance was included), and the folks at Adelaide on the Aust Helicopters contracts are rumoured to be looking at raising a NVG capability for EMS, Pol air work etc, which is why 90% of their last recruitment drive was ex mil NVG rated pilots.
Maybe its time to hang up the nomex and strap on the 3 piece suit, NVG/NVD would logically be the next step for EMS assuming the TRG is conducted appropriately and the ops manual caters for items like storage and security and ongoing check and Trg.
Hmmmmmmmm
Your thoughts Pruners????
Max
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Contact "STARS" EMS in Calgary, Alberta, Canada...They have been certified to use NVG's for a year or so now on their Bk117's and have set the standard in North America for civillian NVG operations. They are also now approved to use them in the mountains..Miles Mozel is the Chief Pilot...
max,
All help welcome! Lose the nomex, adopt the three peice suit and go for it!!
So far only clocking over the 14 year mark to get them going against the best efforts of the civil aviation SAFETY authority! Been done succesfully in EMS over seas for 15 years plus. US has more than 30 EMS providers doing the NVG thing. Kiwis are looking at restricting night scene response to NVG aircraft only (after 12 months of NVG ops).
What is your suggestion?
Ring Mick Haxell at CASA on 131757 and discuss the options with him.
The hopes of the industry are with you Luke..........
All help welcome! Lose the nomex, adopt the three peice suit and go for it!!
So far only clocking over the 14 year mark to get them going against the best efforts of the civil aviation SAFETY authority! Been done succesfully in EMS over seas for 15 years plus. US has more than 30 EMS providers doing the NVG thing. Kiwis are looking at restricting night scene response to NVG aircraft only (after 12 months of NVG ops).
What is your suggestion?
Ring Mick Haxell at CASA on 131757 and discuss the options with him.
The hopes of the industry are with you Luke..........
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Hey Helmut,
Yes I have heard of the contact you have listed, and if I'm right very light on for making "D's" in the NVG Dept. Not sure if the guy even flew with the full face 5's from last century. Most likely the good old T-Aid, SLS, Bardic type of dude.
The world has turned a zillion times since those days and we are now up to very reliable tubes with better than the ANVIS-6 visual acuity and depth perception that you and I trained on.
I can't see what the hold up is given the amount of NVG experinece in the market place right now. AS long as the TRG was conducted appropriately by an accredited TRG organisation with ISO-9000 compliance etc can't see the huge drama. I suspect that the insurance costs would/could be prohibitive however limited release of the NVG capabability to operators that proved they can hack it in their AOC would stop the back yard operators from tarnishing the right of passage. Have many mates in EMS that are sick and tired of the operation being more complex than it has to be due no NVG. The Black hole and Sea Level patient transfer arguements are nearly arguement enough to get the goggs in service.
Surely we are nearly there with the solution and folks like Mick are only making descisions based on their corporate knowledge? not descisons that are limiting and stalling the value of the capability.
Hmmmmm
Yes I have heard of the contact you have listed, and if I'm right very light on for making "D's" in the NVG Dept. Not sure if the guy even flew with the full face 5's from last century. Most likely the good old T-Aid, SLS, Bardic type of dude.
The world has turned a zillion times since those days and we are now up to very reliable tubes with better than the ANVIS-6 visual acuity and depth perception that you and I trained on.
I can't see what the hold up is given the amount of NVG experinece in the market place right now. AS long as the TRG was conducted appropriately by an accredited TRG organisation with ISO-9000 compliance etc can't see the huge drama. I suspect that the insurance costs would/could be prohibitive however limited release of the NVG capabability to operators that proved they can hack it in their AOC would stop the back yard operators from tarnishing the right of passage. Have many mates in EMS that are sick and tired of the operation being more complex than it has to be due no NVG. The Black hole and Sea Level patient transfer arguements are nearly arguement enough to get the goggs in service.
Surely we are nearly there with the solution and folks like Mick are only making descisions based on their corporate knowledge? not descisons that are limiting and stalling the value of the capability.
Hmmmmm
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Max,
Mick Haxell was CO 5SQN RAAF in the early 80s and introduced gen III ANVIS into ADF operations. We were probably about 10 !!
I'm sure perceived reluctance to endorse NVG is more likely due process through absolutely unimaginable Canberra bureacracy.
regards,
T
Mick Haxell was CO 5SQN RAAF in the early 80s and introduced gen III ANVIS into ADF operations. We were probably about 10 !!
I'm sure perceived reluctance to endorse NVG is more likely due process through absolutely unimaginable Canberra bureacracy.
regards,
T
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Thanks Trap. If thats the case I will remove both feet from my mouth and continue the thread better informed.
If what you say is true, then CASA should have enough info to make a well informed descision and get the ball rolling. NVG/NVD well managed and utilised by well trained crews means a much safer patient Transfer and safer night apps to unlit areas. I can understand the reluctance to approve all commers, however AOC's should be limited to organisations that can prove they can safely manage the capability and conduct appropriate on going check and TRG.
Surely with EMS over seas operators having used the capability for some time now Oz could see their way to CASA approvals in the not too distant future.
Seems like a waste of current technolgies and missions being more complex than they need to be?
Max
If what you say is true, then CASA should have enough info to make a well informed descision and get the ball rolling. NVG/NVD well managed and utilised by well trained crews means a much safer patient Transfer and safer night apps to unlit areas. I can understand the reluctance to approve all commers, however AOC's should be limited to organisations that can prove they can safely manage the capability and conduct appropriate on going check and TRG.
Surely with EMS over seas operators having used the capability for some time now Oz could see their way to CASA approvals in the not too distant future.
Seems like a waste of current technolgies and missions being more complex than they need to be?
Max
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Kiowa Jack
I've spent 8 years flying OH58Ds with ANVIS-6s and have scared myself a few times. Hell of a lot better than scaring yourself without 'em. My hats off to the EMS guys doing the job without. Now that the resources and training standards are there from so many organizations, there's no reason mission dependent roles should be without a valuable resource. Pilots like PPRuNers and PHPA members should provide the voice to break through the barriers created by a bunch of old suits who lost their medical and aren't willing to let the next generation do their job efficiently and safely.
Maxee dear friend.....
You defeat your own point by your proposition.
Since when have the regulatory agencies ever used such a unique and innovative approach to any situation?
NVG/NVD would logically be the next step for EMS
Since when have the regulatory agencies ever used such a unique and innovative approach to any situation?
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Aaaaah okay. Nights too dangerous indeed. We've been using our goggles for almost a year now in Arizona, over mostly rural and sometimes mountainous terrain. I never thought I would fall in love at my age with a tiny, grainy monochromatic TV tube that is, literally, a pain in the neck sometimes, but here I am with butterflies in my stomach whenever I think about her.
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Originally Posted by maxeemum
Vic Pol have been successful to date with NVG trial (not sure if air ambulance was included),
Where is VPAW with NVG's? The only thing holding them back is the Cockpit Mod which has been a works in progress since last September when the initial cockpit survey was done by Oxley Avionics and BAe. The rest is in the bag, HOM done, ground School PP lessons done, CASA ready to sign off IAW with CMI once cockpit is done, NVG instructor in house. Then flight training will commence and once non ex-military crews are competent and proficient enough ops use will start. Ex-mil NVG pilots will of course be ready after refresher.
New VPAW commercial tender for aircraft and maintenance to commence next year specifies that contractor must make all VPAW acft NVG compatible. This is the state of play for VPAW at the moment. VPAW does not want to procrastinate and argue any further, just do it once and for all!
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EMS/NVG, this may be an idiot Q.
How many patients % wise have to be transported as near to sea level as possible. Does the med profession stipulate max ROC for critical atmospheric pressure or do they just say it is desirable to fly ‘sucking hole’ patients etc. close to sea level?
It could be that a density alt change rate of 300 FPM (say) is quite ok up to a designated density altitude (at or above LSALT) for that very small % of patients.
Have they ever quantified relationships between atmospheric and different combinations of systolic/diastolic pressures?
Given that if a patient is picked up in the OZ populated coastal fringes where most of the work happens, the machine is hardly going to bore holes in rising terrain to keep a low ambient deck pressure or climb very high unless the patient pick up spot is up in the hinterland.
Does the medical and aviation regulatory professions take into consideration the fact that at night, when NVG’s are required, there will be in most places in OZ a ten degree downward shift in temp and therefore much less density altitude than what they might be thinking of as in daylight hours.
I know that every time I have been asked to make sure the pilot (FW or RW) flies at a low altitude I have asked in return, would height xxxx be acceptable and never was my request able to be quantified.
Every time when asked that I made a point of asking the pilot upon his return “was there any change in the patient when you arrived at altitude xxxx?” They always have said no and such was noted in the company daily diary.
Would it be right to say that in rotary EMS work the only requirement for NVG and the encompassing regs is when the machine is to fly below LSALT on app/dep a remote pick up site?
It may be that there is a whole lot of hype and unnecessary regs bogging down the introduction of these procedures.
Surveillance work, different and a multitude of different skills/quals are perhaps required, no questions.
It could be that a density alt change rate of 300 FPM (say) is quite ok up to a designated density altitude (at or above LSALT) for that very small % of patients.
Have they ever quantified relationships between atmospheric and different combinations of systolic/diastolic pressures?
Given that if a patient is picked up in the OZ populated coastal fringes where most of the work happens, the machine is hardly going to bore holes in rising terrain to keep a low ambient deck pressure or climb very high unless the patient pick up spot is up in the hinterland.
Does the medical and aviation regulatory professions take into consideration the fact that at night, when NVG’s are required, there will be in most places in OZ a ten degree downward shift in temp and therefore much less density altitude than what they might be thinking of as in daylight hours.
I know that every time I have been asked to make sure the pilot (FW or RW) flies at a low altitude I have asked in return, would height xxxx be acceptable and never was my request able to be quantified.
Every time when asked that I made a point of asking the pilot upon his return “was there any change in the patient when you arrived at altitude xxxx?” They always have said no and such was noted in the company daily diary.
Would it be right to say that in rotary EMS work the only requirement for NVG and the encompassing regs is when the machine is to fly below LSALT on app/dep a remote pick up site?
It may be that there is a whole lot of hype and unnecessary regs bogging down the introduction of these procedures.
Surveillance work, different and a multitude of different skills/quals are perhaps required, no questions.