Working Days Off
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Working Days Off
I hear there are still guys on the North Sea working their rostered days off to appease management. Come on fellas, your short term (financial) gain does nothing for our long term goals of improving terms and conditions for all. Learn to say NO. Please
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What's all this about 'come on mates, let's not work our days off?'
Excuse me, but you may have an agenda to make things wonderful for your ops, but the rest of us have to earn a living.
You may believe that people work they're days off to throw a wrench in the plans of the union, but I think if you took a poll amongst Offshore Crews, you would find that the guys working extra days are either the sole wage earner in their houshold and need the extra days, or they have a substantial debt to service. It has nothing to do with appeasing management!
Maybe some of you are independantly wealthy and don't have to support a family.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Excuse me, but you may have an agenda to make things wonderful for your ops, but the rest of us have to earn a living.
You may believe that people work they're days off to throw a wrench in the plans of the union, but I think if you took a poll amongst Offshore Crews, you would find that the guys working extra days are either the sole wage earner in their houshold and need the extra days, or they have a substantial debt to service. It has nothing to do with appeasing management!
Maybe some of you are independantly wealthy and don't have to support a family.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
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We cannot get pilots to stick together, i bumped into an old mate of mine just the other day and he is now upgrading from PPL to CPL (he has got money) cos another mate has offered him a job a couple of days per week flying for FREE, ya know just to help out.....That is why the industry is in such bad shape, i have met many pilots who will work for free to get their foot in the door then when it comes to organising some action they will be the ones to scab.
I wish i knew this when i got into this industry, i would have gone to uni and got a real job instead.
sorry to rant
I wish i knew this when i got into this industry, i would have gone to uni and got a real job instead.
sorry to rant
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I hate to say it but I agree with offshoreigor you guys had your chance and blew it .You are still blowing it.Working days off helps us as well .If oyu dont like the working conditions there are other ways of making your point with much greater effect.Try working to rule.Remember the ANO gives you the right the ops manual gives you the right.If you want better working conditions try that first.
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If you want a decent talk with management then stop working days off, they will soon be listeneing to you. Last time I remember this was tried though I recall individuals who were saying that if the other w*****s want to stop then that is more for me!. You have to organise it or these greedy money snatchers who will even sell their leave will just get richer and use the excuse that if they dont do it somebody else will.
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Dear Changewing:
I think you missed the point. The main reason that people work they're T/O is to compensate for the fact that they have BILLS TO PAY! You must be independantly wealthy and just fly the NS as a hobby if you can't see that.
Countdown has made a good point, you should consider it.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
PS I tell my kids, who all want to be Pilots,......."GO HEAVY METAL!...GO AIRLINES!!!!"
I think you missed the point. The main reason that people work they're T/O is to compensate for the fact that they have BILLS TO PAY! You must be independantly wealthy and just fly the NS as a hobby if you can't see that.
Countdown has made a good point, you should consider it.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
PS I tell my kids, who all want to be Pilots,......."GO HEAVY METAL!...GO AIRLINES!!!!"
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If you want to stop people working days off then why not do it properly and organise a ballot through BALPA for members of both Scotia and Bristows.
If you can get both sides to stop doing it then there will be less pilots available to take up the slack. It's also worth remembering that even if some pilots continue to work days off at the current flying levels they will only be able to do it on a few occasions before they start to bust flying and duty hours/days off regulations. Thats when it'll start to work and hell if you feel that strongly about it keep an eye on those pilots who work days off and if they bust their limits report them to the CAA.
Remember there is a flight safety issue here and some North Sea pilots are feeling the stress of the extra workload without working days off. It's not that long ago when a pilot was sacked for falling asleep on the North Sea because he had been working late the night before on another job.
If you can get both sides to stop doing it then there will be less pilots available to take up the slack. It's also worth remembering that even if some pilots continue to work days off at the current flying levels they will only be able to do it on a few occasions before they start to bust flying and duty hours/days off regulations. Thats when it'll start to work and hell if you feel that strongly about it keep an eye on those pilots who work days off and if they bust their limits report them to the CAA.
Remember there is a flight safety issue here and some North Sea pilots are feeling the stress of the extra workload without working days off. It's not that long ago when a pilot was sacked for falling asleep on the North Sea because he had been working late the night before on another job.
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Offshoreigor
You have made my point beautifully. You work your days off because you need the money. I say that by working your days off your company is able to crew its flights with the current workforce so nothing changes. Has it occured to you that if the aircraft were on dispersal, the company unable to crew them, then the company might just realise that the pilots terms and conditions are not what they might be? Wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say No. Its easy if you practice.
You have made my point beautifully. You work your days off because you need the money. I say that by working your days off your company is able to crew its flights with the current workforce so nothing changes. Has it occured to you that if the aircraft were on dispersal, the company unable to crew them, then the company might just realise that the pilots terms and conditions are not what they might be? Wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and say No. Its easy if you practice.
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I think we all make the point beautifully and management must love it.We all agree the conditions and pay are far from good but what do we do???? Nothing but argue amongst ourselves.Talk to your union.organise a ballot.Tell them what you want.If you dont then they wont know and wont do anything about it.Just one more comment if your rep doesnt listen then make him listen or vote him out.
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You guys are really something else! Extracts from the above responses include "working days off to appease management" - "working to rule" - "sell their leave to get richer" - "if they bust limits, report them to the CAA" - All clear signs of being really professional(sic), if you worked on another planet. Oh by the way, the guy who fell asleep did have another job - in Edinburgh, and he commuted to Aberdeen every day - now thats what I call observing the spirit of the ANO and any FTL scheme. Was he thinking about the safety of his passengers ?
Surely the only way to move ahead is through the recognised union, as 'days of action, lets strike brothers, national day of sickness and NSPA will not work. (some of these have been tried before - they failed)
Although the union have not done anything exciting to date, it is early days and the salaries in the North Sea are not going to jump overnight - talk to yor rep, and have some patience - please.
I think "offshoreigor" has hit the nail on the head.
SARcastic
Surely the only way to move ahead is through the recognised union, as 'days of action, lets strike brothers, national day of sickness and NSPA will not work. (some of these have been tried before - they failed)
Although the union have not done anything exciting to date, it is early days and the salaries in the North Sea are not going to jump overnight - talk to yor rep, and have some patience - please.
I think "offshoreigor" has hit the nail on the head.
SARcastic
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SARcastic, the reason I mentioned the guy falling asleep was as a warning. He was obviously burning the candle at both ends and in the end has no one to blame but himself. The point of it really is that if someone is working days off and flying on the maximum limits of the duty/flying scheme then they are likely to be more fatigued than someone who isn't and could end up going the same way. Remember, management won't defend you or say thanks.
As regards to the 'bust limits - report them' comment then you've already covered it. Are they thinking about the safety of their passengers? No. So what do you do? Sit back and ignore it or do something about it? Is it more professional to do nothing? If the profession is ever going to be taken seriously then we have to move away from these cowboy 'oh I'll just readjust my start time on the duty form' attitudes.
I agree with the 'do it through BALPA' point but I mentioned that before. Incidently, I believe that BALPA has stopped Bristows from removing a local allowance from the staff - so there's one small success.
As regards to the 'bust limits - report them' comment then you've already covered it. Are they thinking about the safety of their passengers? No. So what do you do? Sit back and ignore it or do something about it? Is it more professional to do nothing? If the profession is ever going to be taken seriously then we have to move away from these cowboy 'oh I'll just readjust my start time on the duty form' attitudes.
I agree with the 'do it through BALPA' point but I mentioned that before. Incidently, I believe that BALPA has stopped Bristows from removing a local allowance from the staff - so there's one small success.
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Sorry if I upset a few here. I am certainly not wealthy and need the money as much as anyone else, but rates will never rise while a few people cover shortfalls for relatively low rates. As far as the union is concerned, BALPA is pretty useless industrialy because of the law, which as I understand it requires an all or nothing attititude. Thus you have to be prepared to ultimatlely ballot for a strike, or do nothing at all. Last time I recall anything positive being achieved it was an individual ringing around who organised a stop on days off, while BALPA simply said it could do nothing. Do not get me wrong, I have sympathy with BALPA's position, but also without some organisation, a few greedy individuals will work a day off for almost nothing.
I am simply trying to point out that if you wish to stop people working days off you must make them aware that the majority are against their actions, and embarrass tham into stopping, if you do not there will allways be someone prepared to do it.
I am simply trying to point out that if you wish to stop people working days off you must make them aware that the majority are against their actions, and embarrass tham into stopping, if you do not there will allways be someone prepared to do it.
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Hey People, I thought we could use a break from all this seriousness and consider the following:
‘A Day Off’
So you want the day off. Let's take a look at what you are asking for:
There are 365 days per year available for work.
There are 52 weeks per year in which you already have two days off per week, leaving 251 days available for work.
Since you spend 16 hours a day away from work, you have used up 170 days, leaving only 81 days available.
You spend 30 minutes each day on coffee breaks, that accounts for 23 days a year leaving 68 days available.
With a 1 hour lunch period each day, you have used up another 46 days, leaving only 22 days available.
You normally spend 2 days sick per year, this now only leaves you 20 days available.
You get 5 days public holidays a year, so your working time is now down to 15 days a year.
We generously give you a 14 days vacation per year, which leaves only 1 day available for work.
So if you think you are going to get that day off, Your out of your mind!!!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 16 November 2000).]
‘A Day Off’
So you want the day off. Let's take a look at what you are asking for:
There are 365 days per year available for work.
There are 52 weeks per year in which you already have two days off per week, leaving 251 days available for work.
Since you spend 16 hours a day away from work, you have used up 170 days, leaving only 81 days available.
You spend 30 minutes each day on coffee breaks, that accounts for 23 days a year leaving 68 days available.
With a 1 hour lunch period each day, you have used up another 46 days, leaving only 22 days available.
You normally spend 2 days sick per year, this now only leaves you 20 days available.
You get 5 days public holidays a year, so your working time is now down to 15 days a year.
We generously give you a 14 days vacation per year, which leaves only 1 day available for work.
So if you think you are going to get that day off, Your out of your mind!!!
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
[This message has been edited by offshoreigor (edited 16 November 2000).]
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Work days off for no pay? Unbelievable!
If the company does not have a published work/overtime schedule published, you'd best stand firm and refuse. For those pilots that will work for free to build hours, I hope they are working for a charitable organization. If a commercial company takes a person on staff in that regard, shame on the pilot and double shame on the company taking advantage of an incredibly stupid, selfish person or they are a complete loser of a cutthroat moron that has only done harm to the industry and fulfilled a bean counter's dream.
When I work overtime and get paid overtime, it is mutually convenient. Sometimes the company is in a bind and they show me their appreciation by paying me more when I go above and beyond.
Any pilot that works extra when he is already tired or close to going over legal flight hour limits is a hazard to those around him and should be a candidate for euthanasia, but you just can't legislate common sense and good judgement. It only takes a few idiots to screw things up for dedicated, career helicopter pilots such as that which I consider myself to be.
[This message has been edited by Hoverboy (edited 16 November 2000).]
If the company does not have a published work/overtime schedule published, you'd best stand firm and refuse. For those pilots that will work for free to build hours, I hope they are working for a charitable organization. If a commercial company takes a person on staff in that regard, shame on the pilot and double shame on the company taking advantage of an incredibly stupid, selfish person or they are a complete loser of a cutthroat moron that has only done harm to the industry and fulfilled a bean counter's dream.
When I work overtime and get paid overtime, it is mutually convenient. Sometimes the company is in a bind and they show me their appreciation by paying me more when I go above and beyond.
Any pilot that works extra when he is already tired or close to going over legal flight hour limits is a hazard to those around him and should be a candidate for euthanasia, but you just can't legislate common sense and good judgement. It only takes a few idiots to screw things up for dedicated, career helicopter pilots such as that which I consider myself to be.
[This message has been edited by Hoverboy (edited 16 November 2000).]
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Finally someone under's'tands what I'm saying. Thank you HoverBoy!
Those low life scumbags that work for free should be hung out to dry. The rest of us still have to make a living and if the rest of you don't under's'tand this, then please see my previous post and study it hard, there will be an exam counting for 75% of your grade.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
Those low life scumbags that work for free should be hung out to dry. The rest of us still have to make a living and if the rest of you don't under's'tand this, then please see my previous post and study it hard, there will be an exam counting for 75% of your grade.
Cheers, OffshoreIgor
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I might disagree somewhat, Tipspeed, I currently wear my Offshore Hero button proudly on my lapel for now, but I know several land based pilots that make more and work less. I'm at about the halfway point for my experience being on dry land and the latest bunch of years that have been taking me offshore.
Greed? I don't really think that is the motivator. The working conditions mentioned in this and a related thread seem quite harsh and I'm not sure I would want the job that I perceive being represented here. But it's a job that someone has to do and perhaps there is room for negotiation for those in the situation?
The more hazardous and less structured environment you accept to work in, you tend to make more. Just check the pay stub of a heli-logging machine driver in the Pacific North-West. But then again, it's a pretty volatile area of the industry and there is some feast and famine aspects to consider.
If you fly commercial operations with less qualifications, you will generally earn less.
Generally:
Multi engines pay more.
Night flying pays more.
IFR pays more.
Remote job sites pay more.
Hazardous work pays more.
I said, Generally!
There are other factors to consider but this is representative of what I've encountered on a regular basis for the last few decades.
So I'm looking for a night-IFR-logging job on an EH-101 that's as far from my home as possible so I can retire after being on the job for about a day and a half... but 'til then I'll keep doing work that I enjoy and pays me what I consider to be a fair wage.
Companies will never give great wages to a job that allows people to be home most nights, it's just the nature of the beast. There will almost always be someone willing to work for less for the advantage of being close to the comforts of home. Unfortunately there are still enough qualified pilots out there that if a few individuals leave a company in order to try to send a message to management, they will be branded as whingers and the company will accept their departure as a natural aspect of attrition.
What's the answer? I think the North Sea group needs to get together and establish a quorum, fifty percent won't cut it, you need a large group within the numbers represented that will stand together to calmly and clearly state their case to management. If there are too many people willing to accept the job conditions and pay provided, it's the end of the story. Put up or shut up.
I don't believe that job action, such as a day of sickness will work. We're too small in numbers and spread out within the industry to stage job actions to get results.
Few of the classmates I earned wings with over 20 years ago still fly, many have found work outside this industry and that's just the way it is.
If a person is unhappy with the work conditions and job site environment, sometimes the only alternative is to leave but don't think your departure will affect the company because most likely there might very well be someone standing at the sidelines ready to jump in.
I consider myself quite fortunate to have been steadily employed for over 20 years, with a change of company six times during that time. With another 15 to 20 years to go, I just hope my luck holds out.
A person has to know what challenges they are willing to accept and they have to know, when to say no. You have to establish limits, though they may be flexible and then live by your limits. Some rules will accept bending, some will not. You've got to know the difference. I've walked firmly on both sides of the Hero - Bum line with stands I've taken and decisions I have abided by, so I think I have some understanding of some of the politics that rule our lives.
There will be the day that a pilot has to pack up his flight bag and an engineer has to gather up all his tools and move on to the next venue. Sometimes that day comes sooner than you would have hoped and other times it does not come soon enough, sometimes we leave of our own accord and sometimes we are assisted by size 10 Hushpuppies.
I like my job and I accept the pay that goes with it, although more is always better! If I get asked to do things I'm not happy with, or get jammed by management, it may be time to move on and take my skills elsewhere. Sometimes it has nothing to do with my qualifications or abilities and everything to do with personalities, but that's another thread altogether isn't it?
Working days off should be a choice of mutual convenience and not a normal mode of operation. A person should be able to turn it down or accept it with no consequences. If a company demands it... something is wrong. If people keep accepting overtime when they don't want to, they'll just have to cope with the situation they are perpetuating.
However, all the foregoing ramblings are just my opinions and I think I'm entitled to them.
Works for me!
So far.
Greed? I don't really think that is the motivator. The working conditions mentioned in this and a related thread seem quite harsh and I'm not sure I would want the job that I perceive being represented here. But it's a job that someone has to do and perhaps there is room for negotiation for those in the situation?
The more hazardous and less structured environment you accept to work in, you tend to make more. Just check the pay stub of a heli-logging machine driver in the Pacific North-West. But then again, it's a pretty volatile area of the industry and there is some feast and famine aspects to consider.
If you fly commercial operations with less qualifications, you will generally earn less.
Generally:
Multi engines pay more.
Night flying pays more.
IFR pays more.
Remote job sites pay more.
Hazardous work pays more.
I said, Generally!
There are other factors to consider but this is representative of what I've encountered on a regular basis for the last few decades.
So I'm looking for a night-IFR-logging job on an EH-101 that's as far from my home as possible so I can retire after being on the job for about a day and a half... but 'til then I'll keep doing work that I enjoy and pays me what I consider to be a fair wage.
Companies will never give great wages to a job that allows people to be home most nights, it's just the nature of the beast. There will almost always be someone willing to work for less for the advantage of being close to the comforts of home. Unfortunately there are still enough qualified pilots out there that if a few individuals leave a company in order to try to send a message to management, they will be branded as whingers and the company will accept their departure as a natural aspect of attrition.
What's the answer? I think the North Sea group needs to get together and establish a quorum, fifty percent won't cut it, you need a large group within the numbers represented that will stand together to calmly and clearly state their case to management. If there are too many people willing to accept the job conditions and pay provided, it's the end of the story. Put up or shut up.
I don't believe that job action, such as a day of sickness will work. We're too small in numbers and spread out within the industry to stage job actions to get results.
Few of the classmates I earned wings with over 20 years ago still fly, many have found work outside this industry and that's just the way it is.
If a person is unhappy with the work conditions and job site environment, sometimes the only alternative is to leave but don't think your departure will affect the company because most likely there might very well be someone standing at the sidelines ready to jump in.
I consider myself quite fortunate to have been steadily employed for over 20 years, with a change of company six times during that time. With another 15 to 20 years to go, I just hope my luck holds out.
A person has to know what challenges they are willing to accept and they have to know, when to say no. You have to establish limits, though they may be flexible and then live by your limits. Some rules will accept bending, some will not. You've got to know the difference. I've walked firmly on both sides of the Hero - Bum line with stands I've taken and decisions I have abided by, so I think I have some understanding of some of the politics that rule our lives.
There will be the day that a pilot has to pack up his flight bag and an engineer has to gather up all his tools and move on to the next venue. Sometimes that day comes sooner than you would have hoped and other times it does not come soon enough, sometimes we leave of our own accord and sometimes we are assisted by size 10 Hushpuppies.
I like my job and I accept the pay that goes with it, although more is always better! If I get asked to do things I'm not happy with, or get jammed by management, it may be time to move on and take my skills elsewhere. Sometimes it has nothing to do with my qualifications or abilities and everything to do with personalities, but that's another thread altogether isn't it?
Working days off should be a choice of mutual convenience and not a normal mode of operation. A person should be able to turn it down or accept it with no consequences. If a company demands it... something is wrong. If people keep accepting overtime when they don't want to, they'll just have to cope with the situation they are perpetuating.
However, all the foregoing ramblings are just my opinions and I think I'm entitled to them.
Works for me!
So far.