Twin Time?
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Twin Time?
I have been told that the home office will not allow anyone to fly for the UK police etc. unless they have 500 hours of twin engine experience.
Can anyone give me any real reason why there is such a meaningless requirement?
A helicopter is a helicopter and just because it has two engines, shouldn't make it out of bounds to us single engine drivers.
I think everyone understands the slight increase in complexity but there really isn't that much difference between, for eg. an AS 350 and an AS 355. Please; give me a reason so I can stop complaining about it.
Richard.
[This message has been edited by fishboy (edited 15 November 2000).]
Can anyone give me any real reason why there is such a meaningless requirement?
A helicopter is a helicopter and just because it has two engines, shouldn't make it out of bounds to us single engine drivers.
I think everyone understands the slight increase in complexity but there really isn't that much difference between, for eg. an AS 350 and an AS 355. Please; give me a reason so I can stop complaining about it.
Richard.
[This message has been edited by fishboy (edited 15 November 2000).]
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I have some sympathy, but there is a difference. Single pilots on suffering an engine failure have no descisions to make - enter auto, look for a spot, put it down. Multi pilots have a whats happened here then, fly the aircraft and sort it out typ of attitude. If you are flying relatively low over built up areas, I do not think it is unreasonable for them to want people familiar with the twin engine thought process.
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Its like the polocy of using only ex military pilots but that now seems to be changing.Having flown both single and twin I would suggest that the small complexities you refer to are a bit more than that.having said that with todays modern electronics it may not be so much of a problem in the future.In the meantime i would suggest getting twin time IE NorthSea including a twin IR which you will probably require in the future.
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Thank you for your replies but you haven't really been able to offer any real reasons.
I know that if I want to fly for the police I will have to get the time, I'm just trying to understand the requirement. I'm well aware of the differences between single and twin emergency procedures and understand that some training would be required, but 500 hours!
In addition to that, at the moment I am very current in low level activities, flying Hughes 500 etc. I would suggest that after spending around a year flying straight and level in an S61 or similar, I would be a less competent pilot in those areas.
Thanks again.
I know that if I want to fly for the police I will have to get the time, I'm just trying to understand the requirement. I'm well aware of the differences between single and twin emergency procedures and understand that some training would be required, but 500 hours!
In addition to that, at the moment I am very current in low level activities, flying Hughes 500 etc. I would suggest that after spending around a year flying straight and level in an S61 or similar, I would be a less competent pilot in those areas.
Thanks again.
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I'm not sure but like I said, I have been informed that it's a home office requirement.
I really believe that anyone wanting those kind of jobs should have good experience, but that the experience should be relevant, not just a rule to keep civilian pilots out of a mainly military dominated market.
I really believe that anyone wanting those kind of jobs should have good experience, but that the experience should be relevant, not just a rule to keep civilian pilots out of a mainly military dominated market.
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Fishboy, It's a sad fact that the police want pilots who can do the job done from day one and not pilots who have to think about what they are doing and how they are doing it with the aircraft. (I know what I mean!) The flying has to be instinctive and so must the emergency drills if anything goes wrong. "Lower Lever - Land" is ok for most singles but there are a hell of a lot of potentially complex emergency scenarios on something like a 135 or any other twin that the police use.
The reason there are so many military pilots in police aviation is purely because they have the experience and they are available! Once you have 500 hours twin (and 1500 hrs minimum) you might get the job but you will still be competing with the guy who has
A) Flown seriously low level and can map read and talk on the radio while he's doing it.
B) Fly close formation with another helicopter at night.
C) Flown with NVG.
D) By the very nature of his military experience will have demonstrated a high level of "Division of Attention" Captaincy and Capacity. In other words he can do lot's of things at once!
Every pilot is capable of these things but the military pilot has already done it and demonstrated that fact – which one would you choose?
I wish you luck all the same. Have you thought about contacting McAlpine Aviation Services and asking their advice on how best to get the experience you need?
The reason there are so many military pilots in police aviation is purely because they have the experience and they are available! Once you have 500 hours twin (and 1500 hrs minimum) you might get the job but you will still be competing with the guy who has
A) Flown seriously low level and can map read and talk on the radio while he's doing it.
B) Fly close formation with another helicopter at night.
C) Flown with NVG.
D) By the very nature of his military experience will have demonstrated a high level of "Division of Attention" Captaincy and Capacity. In other words he can do lot's of things at once!
Every pilot is capable of these things but the military pilot has already done it and demonstrated that fact – which one would you choose?
I wish you luck all the same. Have you thought about contacting McAlpine Aviation Services and asking their advice on how best to get the experience you need?
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You've touched on a very relevant topic of late (in the industry). At present it's undergoing review in that the 500hr figure may well be lowered. The BHAB are addressing this issue with advice from us in the industry. I personally am an advocate for lowering because the current level may well be a little too restrictive. Suffice to say when the figure was first drawn up it was the first attempt at defining experience levels the industry 'thought' might be necessary to complete the task safely. It wasn't unreasonable to make this assumption because as has been comfortably described previously on this subject, the pilot pool available should come from an area where experience and training are a KNOWN quantity. The Home Office couldn't then and can't now afford to jeopardise public safety in any way shape or form.. Trouble is...the military pool is drying up. What do they do now? This is one solution. You still have other hurdles to overcome though!
1500-2000PiC
100+ PiC night
Some Forces advocate: previous police experience as well!
Believe me, I have significant single and twin time. The twin only buys you time so that you can sweat over the systems failure for longer!
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TC
1500-2000PiC
100+ PiC night
Some Forces advocate: previous police experience as well!
Believe me, I have significant single and twin time. The twin only buys you time so that you can sweat over the systems failure for longer!
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TC
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You made a number of points and some have validity.
However; there are lots of civilian pilots, myself included, who have flown low level in high density traffic areas, ie. reading a map and talking on the radio.
I'm not sure about the flying close formation at night with another helicoper, though I have flown close formation with 2 helicopters during daylight.
How many UK police units are using NVGs at this time?
I think most pilots are capable, and have demonstrated the ability to divide their attention. If I were to choose, I would pick the pilot with the most suitable experience, regardless of his training background. I agree that most military pilots have the best experience for this type of work but that will not always be the case, especially since there are fewer and fewer pilots leaving the services.
I have talked to Mc Alpine, they say the same thing. Go to the North Sea for a while. I'm trying.
I wrote this before I read your reply Thomas; Thank you.
However; there are lots of civilian pilots, myself included, who have flown low level in high density traffic areas, ie. reading a map and talking on the radio.
I'm not sure about the flying close formation at night with another helicoper, though I have flown close formation with 2 helicopters during daylight.
How many UK police units are using NVGs at this time?
I think most pilots are capable, and have demonstrated the ability to divide their attention. If I were to choose, I would pick the pilot with the most suitable experience, regardless of his training background. I agree that most military pilots have the best experience for this type of work but that will not always be the case, especially since there are fewer and fewer pilots leaving the services.
I have talked to Mc Alpine, they say the same thing. Go to the North Sea for a while. I'm trying.
I wrote this before I read your reply Thomas; Thank you.
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Good luck - I believe Scotia are hiring at the minute and from what I can gather there is a lot of flying to be had at the moment (whether you want it or not!)and when you have had enough of that you can fly for the police and sit around all day waiting for something to happen....
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I have some sympathy with what you are going through and believe that a pert answer has already been provided you. Get some time in elsewhere then review your options. I am not a great advocate of the "500 twin" requirement and feel that it is now time to reasess the present situation.
Lets have the police training it's own pilots from coppers. Other countries do it -without safety problems - and they convert onto twins!
Lets have the police training it's own pilots from coppers. Other countries do it -without safety problems - and they convert onto twins!
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Make no mistake, this is a very demanding job (well the 2% of it not spent playing computer games and eating take aways or mindlessly hovering over a gypsy camp)
Letsby is quite right, the flying has to be instinctive, and of a high quality. Then you must be able to monitor ATC and police radios and keep 'the big picture' in mind both tactically and in terms of flight safety. Even when you can do all that, Murphy is waiting to trip you up in a very expensive way, so it is no wonder that this requirement exists.
And training up the plod is a bad idea, Tipspeed. Professional pilots who maintain a secondary interest in the tactical scenario rather than policemen who maintain a secondary interest in the safety of the aircraft are essential.The Hampshire Optica proved this many years ago.
Letsby is quite right, the flying has to be instinctive, and of a high quality. Then you must be able to monitor ATC and police radios and keep 'the big picture' in mind both tactically and in terms of flight safety. Even when you can do all that, Murphy is waiting to trip you up in a very expensive way, so it is no wonder that this requirement exists.
And training up the plod is a bad idea, Tipspeed. Professional pilots who maintain a secondary interest in the tactical scenario rather than policemen who maintain a secondary interest in the safety of the aircraft are essential.The Hampshire Optica proved this many years ago.
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Tipspeed you only need to look at the police pilot track record over there to assess for yourself where the problems lie! This isn't a job where you get free time to brush up on your piloting skills in between 'jobs'!! It's either there or goodbye. The job is extremely varied, ranging from chasing stolen cars to covert ops at night, high level, to HEMS, NVG, bad weather ops, mountain ops...blah blah blah...Where do you get a round peg to fit into this round hole? You got it...the military, wound up and ready to go. Why destabilise the whole issue by putting PC plod (ex, control room supervisor) through the £50,000 mill, only to find he can't fly a twin at night in deteriorating weather with a runaway up.
Unless of course you're winding us up.......
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TC
Unless of course you're winding us up.......
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TC
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Fishboy
Well if this is a wind up you've certainly attracted some attention. If not have some of this. All military pilots go through a very strict selection procedure and only a very small % get selected for training. From then on every sortie is scrutinised in the great detail with a very small margin for a repeat sortie should it be graded below average. The point I am trying to make is that military people who fly for the police are a much safer bet because they have gone through a rigorous selection procedure and continuous pressure during their training to ensure only the best get through. That cannot be said of the civilian community where your selection procedure is your back pocket and a failed sortie just means a bit more dosh. You don't seriously expect me to consider your low flying in a H300 to operations in the Falklands, NI or the gulf do you? Several people in police flying took place in all three, self included.
For you information the Home Office 500 twin hr is a recommendation. We have had a, high time ex-mil, single engine pilot at our asu in the past. Its more how you got your hours and what type of training & selection you went through!
Well if this is a wind up you've certainly attracted some attention. If not have some of this. All military pilots go through a very strict selection procedure and only a very small % get selected for training. From then on every sortie is scrutinised in the great detail with a very small margin for a repeat sortie should it be graded below average. The point I am trying to make is that military people who fly for the police are a much safer bet because they have gone through a rigorous selection procedure and continuous pressure during their training to ensure only the best get through. That cannot be said of the civilian community where your selection procedure is your back pocket and a failed sortie just means a bit more dosh. You don't seriously expect me to consider your low flying in a H300 to operations in the Falklands, NI or the gulf do you? Several people in police flying took place in all three, self included.
For you information the Home Office 500 twin hr is a recommendation. We have had a, high time ex-mil, single engine pilot at our asu in the past. Its more how you got your hours and what type of training & selection you went through!
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Fishboy, I sympathise. I reckon the 500 hrs business is just a rather arbitary number someone came up with to quantify an idea that you really need a bit more than basic experience to fly Police ops safely. As far as it goes I would agree with that - by the time you have achieved 500 hrs twin time youve probably done enough to be competant in the job.
Having said that I would not be too sure about a tyro who had somehow landed 500hrs twin time on a new CPL. I sure as hell wouldnt rate a 500 hr, or even less a 1500hr N Sea pilot without a substantial amount of real world refresher flying to patch up the forgotten bits. You stagnate up there, most of the guys in Aberdeen I flew with couldnt remember what a map looked like, let alone read one. Its airline work, and of precious little relevance to any other kind of helo flying.
Get some 'operational' twin time with a charter outfit, filming, powerline etc, thats what you need.
Then I hope you enjoy the Police, I didnt. I was distinctly unimpressed with their levels of professionalism, integrity, ability and intelligence. But then perhaps things have changed. (!)
Good luck mate
[This message has been edited by Pinger (edited 18 November 2000).]
Having said that I would not be too sure about a tyro who had somehow landed 500hrs twin time on a new CPL. I sure as hell wouldnt rate a 500 hr, or even less a 1500hr N Sea pilot without a substantial amount of real world refresher flying to patch up the forgotten bits. You stagnate up there, most of the guys in Aberdeen I flew with couldnt remember what a map looked like, let alone read one. Its airline work, and of precious little relevance to any other kind of helo flying.
Get some 'operational' twin time with a charter outfit, filming, powerline etc, thats what you need.
Then I hope you enjoy the Police, I didnt. I was distinctly unimpressed with their levels of professionalism, integrity, ability and intelligence. But then perhaps things have changed. (!)
Good luck mate
[This message has been edited by Pinger (edited 18 November 2000).]
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I've heard that the 500 hours twin time was set in the last century when the police acquired their own helos and hired the pilots from contractors such as Bristows,PAS etc. When asked what minimums should apply I expect the pilots at that time wanted 500 hours twin because that ensured job security.
Does 500 hours dangling a dingle in the water from a twin engined helo satisfy a level of experience for the police? Does 500 hours flogging to and from oil rigs in the North Sea satisfy the same experience requirement? I think not but who advises the police? Ah - the Home Office and I bet their aviation adviser was one of those pilots from the last century with 500 hours or more "dangling". I doubt if the HO view will change until the adviser is changed
Experience should be relevant to the task and not limited by irrelevant hours. You don't have to be an ex-military pilot to be a police pilot but I am sure it helps - sometimes.
Fishboy - have you ever thought of becoming a stockbroker?
- "keeping an ear to the ground"
Does 500 hours dangling a dingle in the water from a twin engined helo satisfy a level of experience for the police? Does 500 hours flogging to and from oil rigs in the North Sea satisfy the same experience requirement? I think not but who advises the police? Ah - the Home Office and I bet their aviation adviser was one of those pilots from the last century with 500 hours or more "dangling". I doubt if the HO view will change until the adviser is changed
Experience should be relevant to the task and not limited by irrelevant hours. You don't have to be an ex-military pilot to be a police pilot but I am sure it helps - sometimes.
Fishboy - have you ever thought of becoming a stockbroker?
- "keeping an ear to the ground"