Pointless whining.
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Nothing is going to change on the North Sea until the pilots act as one. A mornings action would be all that is needed, by 5pm pay and conditions would be top of the agenda at the oil companies. (We all agree it is the oil companies drive for profit that has led us to this point)This will never happen. We are all professionals and would not leave guys stranded offshore/food and mail onshore. Therefore the cycle continues, until a demoralised crew in an ageing helicopter working in an overstretched enviroment has an accident and the law suites start flying. Then 2 years later, after the public enquiry something maybe done. Tombstone industrial relations!
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212 Man
I have sussed by your tone who you are, Tiger, Aberdeen 6 years ago. The volume of your opinions was (and I suspect still is) inversely propotional to your Captains assessment of your ability. A 10 year captain on the North Sea should be earning £48k pa. (before Aberdeen allowance). Tips, you obviously have no experience of extensive night shuttling in poor weather.
I have sussed by your tone who you are, Tiger, Aberdeen 6 years ago. The volume of your opinions was (and I suspect still is) inversely propotional to your Captains assessment of your ability. A 10 year captain on the North Sea should be earning £48k pa. (before Aberdeen allowance). Tips, you obviously have no experience of extensive night shuttling in poor weather.
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Vortex, why do people feel the need to get personal here.......?
1. I've no idea what the remark about captain's ability was supposed to prove. I'm a training captain, does that help with your query?
2. I did not say junior F/O, I was saying that a Senior F/O (SFO, or non NS commander pilot) would get that figure. Ask a small female 61 driver, she will almost cetainly be close to that figure. Even if I'm a grand or two out, the point I was making was that a senior co-pilot will earn the same as a junior turbo prop captain with BRA, Brymon KLMUK etc. I did not imply that we are overpaid, I simply pointed out a few facts. If we wish to argue a case for more pay, it has to be against the backdrop of the wider commercial industry. We are pricing ourselves out of overseas contract.
3. Sussed out who I am? That's clever... I don't hide under anonymity like some people.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
1. I've no idea what the remark about captain's ability was supposed to prove. I'm a training captain, does that help with your query?
2. I did not say junior F/O, I was saying that a Senior F/O (SFO, or non NS commander pilot) would get that figure. Ask a small female 61 driver, she will almost cetainly be close to that figure. Even if I'm a grand or two out, the point I was making was that a senior co-pilot will earn the same as a junior turbo prop captain with BRA, Brymon KLMUK etc. I did not imply that we are overpaid, I simply pointed out a few facts. If we wish to argue a case for more pay, it has to be against the backdrop of the wider commercial industry. We are pricing ourselves out of overseas contract.
3. Sussed out who I am? That's clever... I don't hide under anonymity like some people.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 09 January 2000).]
Guest
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The only way to assess are "worth" in the oil industry is compare our salaries with other offshore workers. A HLO gets about the same as a junior captain, but no leave entitlement. A NDT inspector about £55000 when offshore based. A crane operator: well I wouldn't like to say. Most offshore workers are surprised at how low we are in the offshore salary pecking order. Let's hope that are worth is recognised before all the HLOs will hear is fixed wing pilots calling them on the radio to ask how much they enjoy the boat trips to from work!!
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Leading edge, at the risk of opening up a whole new can of worms, I must take exception to your description of Balpa as a 'lapdog union'. BALPA's lack of 'success'in raising wages is down to lack of union recognition and the sheer greed of some of it's members. Anyone who thinks that BALPA can waltz in and wave a magic wand and all will be well is living in cloud cuckoo land. For action to be successful it requires ALL members to act. On the few occassions where some sort of action has been discussed, people have taken the cash and run and they will always do so. The failure to improve conditions, I'm afraid, rests with us.
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I agree. At the end of the day, a union is just a bunch of guys that get together to improve their lot. It is not some magical institution with supreme powers.
Salaries are such an emotive issue that it is difficult to have an objective discussion about them. As an example, a North Sea pilot gets more (gross, before anyone starts) than his colleagues based in Nigeria, where's the logic in that? Most other contractors there get bonuses ranging from 30-77% of their gross salary, as a location allowance.
As a reality check, ask the man on the Clapham omnibus. He might shed some light on the situation.
Anyway, must go as I have a plane to catch.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 12 January 2000).]
Salaries are such an emotive issue that it is difficult to have an objective discussion about them. As an example, a North Sea pilot gets more (gross, before anyone starts) than his colleagues based in Nigeria, where's the logic in that? Most other contractors there get bonuses ranging from 30-77% of their gross salary, as a location allowance.
As a reality check, ask the man on the Clapham omnibus. He might shed some light on the situation.
Anyway, must go as I have a plane to catch.
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[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 12 January 2000).]
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As a new boy to pprune I have been reading the whingeing pilots section with interest and would like to offer my tuppence-worth.
I am generally content with life. However, I cannot say that my salary is that brilliant as a co-pilot. I have a wife and child to support with all the usual takers of money (mortgage, loans, etc). Last year my company did not have a pay rise. Therefore I have in effect had a pay cut as my salary has not matched inflation and will continue to do so as there are no more increments left until promotion.
I would agree that management are only looking after themselves and not their staff. The redundancies showed that by taking all the experienced staff away. After all, two young sprog co-pilots are financially better than one "expensive" captain with loads of experience under his belt in the eyes of an accountant who has no knowledge of aviation, only pound/dollar signs!
I also saw the note about how useful, or not, BALPA are in the North Sea. Seeing that BALPA was only recognised by one company (BIH), it's understandable that they could not be much help. In my company a large majority of pilots are in BALPA but for what reason? Most purely for the legal backup in the case they are involved in an accident! Many of the new pilots are not going to rock the boat by not flying for a morning because they see themselves as having a good salary at such a young age. Most are not even contemplating staying in the company for more than a few years, anyway, as they are doing their plank-wing exams and are using the company just to get some experience. Therefore they are not even that bothered about future career prospects. They arrived just before a major redundancy and they can see that the North Sea is no place to make a career.
Although the majority of pilots are in BALPA, the company has only just recognised the union. However, when you look at who is still in management, they are not used to working with unions. After all, they had to go on a course on how to deal with them. Most of that probably went over their heads as they are not really prepared to deal with the situation. They have no experience and are not bothered about gaining any as they are retiring in a few years with major pensions.
In another company, to be in BALPA was to be in the underground. Mention that dirty word and you would be in trouble.
How are BALPA going to get anything done in either of those environments? With recognition, it is going to take time for trust to be built up by both sides and it will take a lot of hard work and time by the company councils. It was never going to work immediately despite all our hopes. After all, my company is now trying to bring in new rosters without any consultation with the union.
To correct 212man, he has obviously been out of UK for a while. The co-pilot he refers to is probably on that salary but she is on a different pay scale to those that have joined since 1995. The most a SFO can hope to earn (before allowances) is approximately £34400. The other companies are about the same plus or minus a thousand or so. These figues were sent out in a BALPA newsletter not so long ago.
Just my opinions.
I am generally content with life. However, I cannot say that my salary is that brilliant as a co-pilot. I have a wife and child to support with all the usual takers of money (mortgage, loans, etc). Last year my company did not have a pay rise. Therefore I have in effect had a pay cut as my salary has not matched inflation and will continue to do so as there are no more increments left until promotion.
I would agree that management are only looking after themselves and not their staff. The redundancies showed that by taking all the experienced staff away. After all, two young sprog co-pilots are financially better than one "expensive" captain with loads of experience under his belt in the eyes of an accountant who has no knowledge of aviation, only pound/dollar signs!
I also saw the note about how useful, or not, BALPA are in the North Sea. Seeing that BALPA was only recognised by one company (BIH), it's understandable that they could not be much help. In my company a large majority of pilots are in BALPA but for what reason? Most purely for the legal backup in the case they are involved in an accident! Many of the new pilots are not going to rock the boat by not flying for a morning because they see themselves as having a good salary at such a young age. Most are not even contemplating staying in the company for more than a few years, anyway, as they are doing their plank-wing exams and are using the company just to get some experience. Therefore they are not even that bothered about future career prospects. They arrived just before a major redundancy and they can see that the North Sea is no place to make a career.
Although the majority of pilots are in BALPA, the company has only just recognised the union. However, when you look at who is still in management, they are not used to working with unions. After all, they had to go on a course on how to deal with them. Most of that probably went over their heads as they are not really prepared to deal with the situation. They have no experience and are not bothered about gaining any as they are retiring in a few years with major pensions.
In another company, to be in BALPA was to be in the underground. Mention that dirty word and you would be in trouble.
How are BALPA going to get anything done in either of those environments? With recognition, it is going to take time for trust to be built up by both sides and it will take a lot of hard work and time by the company councils. It was never going to work immediately despite all our hopes. After all, my company is now trying to bring in new rosters without any consultation with the union.
To correct 212man, he has obviously been out of UK for a while. The co-pilot he refers to is probably on that salary but she is on a different pay scale to those that have joined since 1995. The most a SFO can hope to earn (before allowances) is approximately £34400. The other companies are about the same plus or minus a thousand or so. These figues were sent out in a BALPA newsletter not so long ago.
Just my opinions.
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Captain Catastrophe
The threat of Union recognition for Bristow has been around since 1977. The Company has always resisted until now, and has probably given in due to new European Laws which have come into force.
In Bristow, a reasonably cosy relationship existed between the company and BALPA for a number of years, particularly during the late 80s and early 90s. Providing Bristow treated the crews lawfully, BALPA were not really keen to get involved, that was the unspoken agreement. "Just do it by the book" was the union's mentality. When Bristow couldn't or wouldn't give an RPI payrise on a couple of occasions, BALPA were counselled ,the situation explained and the deal done before the staff even knew that they weren't going to get an increase.
I therefore stand by my comments that BALPA have been lap dogs.
It has taken BALPA 22 years to achieve recognition in Bristow. Surely, a more responsible and active union with the membership levels which have existed within Bristow for the past 15 years would have, could have and should have done more to achieve recognition. I suppose some of the blame lies at the hands of the ultra right wing, anti-union Thatcher Government, but BALPA should still accept some of the blame.
BALPA should, for once, stand up for their membership and show an interest in helicopter pilots. I WOULD probably still pay my subscriptions if I was working the North Sea because there is not much alternative, but I would be strongly urging BALPA to achieve some results after 22 years of collecting my money and doing too little.
I am not foolish enough to assume that there is a magic wand solution, I have a working knowledge of unions because luckily, here in Oz, they are recognised and actually stand up for the interests of their members while adopting a responsible approach. Some companies, including Lloyd have managed to have a reasonable working relationship with the unions here.
Bristow, however, have always fought the union and have lost every case they have taken on against the Pilots Federation. That's what I call standing up for your members and BALPA could learn something from it. The system isn't perfect but it is better than UK.
The threat of Union recognition for Bristow has been around since 1977. The Company has always resisted until now, and has probably given in due to new European Laws which have come into force.
In Bristow, a reasonably cosy relationship existed between the company and BALPA for a number of years, particularly during the late 80s and early 90s. Providing Bristow treated the crews lawfully, BALPA were not really keen to get involved, that was the unspoken agreement. "Just do it by the book" was the union's mentality. When Bristow couldn't or wouldn't give an RPI payrise on a couple of occasions, BALPA were counselled ,the situation explained and the deal done before the staff even knew that they weren't going to get an increase.
I therefore stand by my comments that BALPA have been lap dogs.
It has taken BALPA 22 years to achieve recognition in Bristow. Surely, a more responsible and active union with the membership levels which have existed within Bristow for the past 15 years would have, could have and should have done more to achieve recognition. I suppose some of the blame lies at the hands of the ultra right wing, anti-union Thatcher Government, but BALPA should still accept some of the blame.
BALPA should, for once, stand up for their membership and show an interest in helicopter pilots. I WOULD probably still pay my subscriptions if I was working the North Sea because there is not much alternative, but I would be strongly urging BALPA to achieve some results after 22 years of collecting my money and doing too little.
I am not foolish enough to assume that there is a magic wand solution, I have a working knowledge of unions because luckily, here in Oz, they are recognised and actually stand up for the interests of their members while adopting a responsible approach. Some companies, including Lloyd have managed to have a reasonable working relationship with the unions here.
Bristow, however, have always fought the union and have lost every case they have taken on against the Pilots Federation. That's what I call standing up for your members and BALPA could learn something from it. The system isn't perfect but it is better than UK.
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For the second tine in 2 forums I have to take issue with Leading Edge's comments. BALPA are not a lap dog union. The failure to improve conditions in the North Sea is down to a refusal to recognise the Union by the management and, more importantly, an unwillingness of the workforce to act as one ( under any banner ). Time and time again, any attempt to agree or do anything has been undermined by the 20 or so % of the workforce who are happy to make loud noises in public but will take the money and run given the opportunity. Instead of looking for union / oil company / management scapegoats, we should all take a good hard look at what we have or haven't done.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
Guest
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For the second tine in 2 forums I have to take issue with Leading Edge's comments. BALPA are not a lap dog union. The failure to improve conditions in the North Sea is down to a refusal to recognise the Union by the management and, more importantly, an unwillingness of the workforce to act as one ( under any banner ). Time and time again, any attempt to agree or do anything has been undermined by the 20 or so % of the workforce who are happy to make loud noises in public but will take the money and run given the opportunity. Instead of looking for union / oil company / management scapegoats, we should all take a good hard look at what we have or haven't done.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
PS I am not a rep and I was too young to be involved in the North Sea Pilots strike fiasco - though the report makes interesting reading.
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Here's the bottom line.
1. We are being paid less than one third of what we used to get in the Seventies.
2. Many other professions have experienced similar reductions.
3. Those of us who are not Aviaholics have or will go to other careers. The rest of us? We love flying so much we'd probably do it for nothing.
Yes, I don't earn as much as I used to. Fortunately I also learned to do with less, so I continue to be happiest when I am flying and proud that I can.
1. We are being paid less than one third of what we used to get in the Seventies.
2. Many other professions have experienced similar reductions.
3. Those of us who are not Aviaholics have or will go to other careers. The rest of us? We love flying so much we'd probably do it for nothing.
Yes, I don't earn as much as I used to. Fortunately I also learned to do with less, so I continue to be happiest when I am flying and proud that I can.
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Stay professional, stay proud helidvr, a noble sentiment and one that I totally agree with. Take a look at the bosses, the oil companies and their shareholders however, and we see a group who are all too willing to exploit our positions. As a manager would you change any allowences, detachment pay or salaries if none of your workforce asked you to? Of course not. The reason we are under paid and undervalued is we are too afraid to stand up together and apply the minimal amount of pressure required the effect a change. Will this ever change? I doubt it, and will we continue to be seen as mugs? Of course.
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Well Catastrophy, you can argue with me all you like on these forums, but any Union which takes 22 years to get recognised with the support of 80% of the pilot workforce (your numbers) isn't much good in my opinion.
If it hasn't been a lap dog then it hasn't taken very good care of its business either and if you had paid 22 years worth of subscriptions and were still getting paid less than half of what you are worth then you might think so too. As you say, you are too young. I guess you have plenty of money, after all, there isn't anything to spend it on in Lincs is there!!
If it hasn't been a lap dog then it hasn't taken very good care of its business either and if you had paid 22 years worth of subscriptions and were still getting paid less than half of what you are worth then you might think so too. As you say, you are too young. I guess you have plenty of money, after all, there isn't anything to spend it on in Lincs is there!!
