An interesting flight yesterday
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An interesting flight yesterday
I had a blast yesterday!
I returned to the air now that we have birds at our FBO, and went out to a remote set of strips to work on just flying again, and maneuvers.
What I wanted to share was two mistakes made during that flight, and the lessons from them, as they were the kind that are educational.
First straight in auto I did was perfect, up to just after the flare, unfortunatlely I may have pulled to zealously on collective for this first one, and somehow we ended up at 10 feet with Nr low. really low.
Basically from that location I (and Mike, who was monitoring me) knew all we could do at that point was to allow it to settle, so in effect I have performed my first full down autorotation, I had not even brought in power, as it wouldn't have made any difference, rolled into detent to use collective at the end, however it was more of holding what I had, as pulling wouldn't have made a difference either.
I know it sounds worse than it was, we touched down and didn't even bounce, mike said if I had done that for my CFI ride it would have been a passer
I only bring it up as i know over there you guys do it to full touchdown, and we had that discussion, so at least I have joined the club, if not intentionally!
The other was when we finally (I didn't want to go back) had to leave and go back, I thought a max perf takeoff would be a fitting way to depart for home plate.
I got first hand knowledge of rotor droop hehe ...
I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.
Guy, another inst belives I may have had a tight grip on the throttle, which may when I reached near full collective would make my hand rotate a bit, perhaps preventing the gov from adding at that point. we plan on looking at that later, but in any case, the flight was terrific, doing confined area landings, the other gamut of maneuvers, etc.
Being alone at the strip kept the pattern tight too, to get more in, doing circuits at 300ft, except for when setting up for the auto's of course, a very nice time!
Mike also decided we had done enough for it to qualify for my flight portion of my BFR, so now all I need do is 1 hr of ground later next week, so I'm back in currency.
I hope everyone else had a good day.
I returned to the air now that we have birds at our FBO, and went out to a remote set of strips to work on just flying again, and maneuvers.
What I wanted to share was two mistakes made during that flight, and the lessons from them, as they were the kind that are educational.
First straight in auto I did was perfect, up to just after the flare, unfortunatlely I may have pulled to zealously on collective for this first one, and somehow we ended up at 10 feet with Nr low. really low.
Basically from that location I (and Mike, who was monitoring me) knew all we could do at that point was to allow it to settle, so in effect I have performed my first full down autorotation, I had not even brought in power, as it wouldn't have made any difference, rolled into detent to use collective at the end, however it was more of holding what I had, as pulling wouldn't have made a difference either.
I know it sounds worse than it was, we touched down and didn't even bounce, mike said if I had done that for my CFI ride it would have been a passer
I only bring it up as i know over there you guys do it to full touchdown, and we had that discussion, so at least I have joined the club, if not intentionally!
The other was when we finally (I didn't want to go back) had to leave and go back, I thought a max perf takeoff would be a fitting way to depart for home plate.
I got first hand knowledge of rotor droop hehe ...
I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.
Guy, another inst belives I may have had a tight grip on the throttle, which may when I reached near full collective would make my hand rotate a bit, perhaps preventing the gov from adding at that point. we plan on looking at that later, but in any case, the flight was terrific, doing confined area landings, the other gamut of maneuvers, etc.
Being alone at the strip kept the pattern tight too, to get more in, doing circuits at 300ft, except for when setting up for the auto's of course, a very nice time!
Mike also decided we had done enough for it to qualify for my flight portion of my BFR, so now all I need do is 1 hr of ground later next week, so I'm back in currency.
I hope everyone else had a good day.
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Students learning with governors....what is this world coming to? No touchdown autorotations? I can turn my head at the governor thing...but no touchdown autorotations....the very essence of single engine helicopter flying? There is a topic that will generate an intense amount of discussion....why we should not practice touchdown autorotations during ab-initio training?
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Hi G,
Thanks again for the email
Primary reason they won't do it here in the States is insurance and the liability issues.
On the side however I have done flights without the Gov, in fact my very first robbie dual was before the governor's were made for it. I can go either way on that topic.
Cheers!
Thanks again for the email
Primary reason they won't do it here in the States is insurance and the liability issues.
On the side however I have done flights without the Gov, in fact my very first robbie dual was before the governor's were made for it. I can go either way on that topic.
Cheers!
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I think its generally accepted that if you can perform a satisfactory power recovery at the end of your simulated engine failure, you have a decent chance of getting away with a real one. After all, from that point on its only a hovering / hover taxiing auto or a run-on landing, and you (should) get plenty of practice of those during your training.
Why take the chance of bending a perfectly good aircraft? The risks outweigh the benefits.
Why take the chance of bending a perfectly good aircraft? The risks outweigh the benefits.
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Hi ST!
Rotorheads had discussed this before on the board.
While I agree with you and look at the flare/recovery being similar to a hovering auto or run on landing, and that likely it may be pulled off, I'd also like to say the opponents have a valid point.
In the power recoveries, we add pedal to balance the power coming in, etc. For the full down, it would not be needed, or certainly less that what is applied for a power recovery.
Certainly if all I have done is straight ins / 180's to recovery, the question posed is will I respond by rote in the real thing (full down) and make the those movements?
At that time I couldn't answer that, and still feel I would be making that decision when it happens.
After Thursday though, I have no trepidation in doing them if I had to, of course I would need more dual on it
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: RW-1 ]
Rotorheads had discussed this before on the board.
While I agree with you and look at the flare/recovery being similar to a hovering auto or run on landing, and that likely it may be pulled off, I'd also like to say the opponents have a valid point.
In the power recoveries, we add pedal to balance the power coming in, etc. For the full down, it would not be needed, or certainly less that what is applied for a power recovery.
Certainly if all I have done is straight ins / 180's to recovery, the question posed is will I respond by rote in the real thing (full down) and make the those movements?
At that time I couldn't answer that, and still feel I would be making that decision when it happens.
After Thursday though, I have no trepidation in doing them if I had to, of course I would need more dual on it
[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: RW-1 ]
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When I was training for PPL in June this year I spent my last 1.1 hours (Dual!) before the GFT doing full EOLs to the ground. "Climb to 500 ft and do it again" he kept saying. I can't remember how many I did, maybe 10 or more, but I started to quite like it. The fear of the rotor horn diminished to healthy respect. Some landings were damned bumpy. Incidently, the collective was lowered before cutting the throttle as one would expect. In a real emergency with the reverse situation, just how long does one get to lower the lever after the engine cuts assuming you are pulling real power? (in a R22). We didn't try that one.
He also used to switch off the governor to make me "sweat for a while"
Is this not normal for PPL training?
Incidently I now hire his machine so he knows I stand a chance if it goes quiet.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]
He also used to switch off the governor to make me "sweat for a while"
Is this not normal for PPL training?
Incidently I now hire his machine so he knows I stand a chance if it goes quiet.
[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]
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Hi Gaseous
In the old R22 (or a Young R22) you have very little time to dump the lever if things go quiet, if the engine seized it would possible do so with a bang, but there could be the problem of a gradual seizure which would also mean a gradual and very quiet run down of actual power and Rotor revs, hence the reason for being fully alert and a quick reaction with your left hand and if the donkey quit's dont worry about rolling the throttle shut, GET THE LEVER DOWN, and please get into the habit of flying higher than 500Ft when I was a student the Cfi would only work autos from a Min of 1500ft, although I agree that you should be able to do it from any alt in practice,( by the way practice this at least every 6 wks or 2 months) for you need to stay sharp on it, Where in Good Ole Lanky do you fly from?
My Regards
In the old R22 (or a Young R22) you have very little time to dump the lever if things go quiet, if the engine seized it would possible do so with a bang, but there could be the problem of a gradual seizure which would also mean a gradual and very quiet run down of actual power and Rotor revs, hence the reason for being fully alert and a quick reaction with your left hand and if the donkey quit's dont worry about rolling the throttle shut, GET THE LEVER DOWN, and please get into the habit of flying higher than 500Ft when I was a student the Cfi would only work autos from a Min of 1500ft, although I agree that you should be able to do it from any alt in practice,( by the way practice this at least every 6 wks or 2 months) for you need to stay sharp on it, Where in Good Ole Lanky do you fly from?
My Regards
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VFR,
I trained at Blackpool and the autos were done on area Bravo there. The ATC clearance was, as it usually is, "not above 600 feet".Hence 500 ft eols. Also you get more autos per hour if you dont waste time climbing to 1500. Also it all happens pretty quick from 500 and I suppose the FI's reasoning was if you can do it from 500ft then you can do it from more. I do generally fly a tad more than 500. I hope the engine keeps going.
I trained at Blackpool and the autos were done on area Bravo there. The ATC clearance was, as it usually is, "not above 600 feet".Hence 500 ft eols. Also you get more autos per hour if you dont waste time climbing to 1500. Also it all happens pretty quick from 500 and I suppose the FI's reasoning was if you can do it from 500ft then you can do it from more. I do generally fly a tad more than 500. I hope the engine keeps going.
Generally, Robinson talk about 1.1 seconds in the cruise to react after an engine failure. After that, blades tend to vlap hands with messy consequences.
Lesson - DON'T take your hand off the collective during critical phases of flight, and for the shortest time possible at other times.
Lesson - DON'T take your hand off the collective during critical phases of flight, and for the shortest time possible at other times.
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Nr Fairy,
Thanks but that wasn't terribly reassuring, so I decided to see what I could find. This was in an aaib report.
In flight at 90 kt, 500 ft agl, the R22 needs 90 HP to maintain airspeed and altitude. If, in the event of an engine failure, the pilot maintains forward cyclic and up collective, the rotor rpm will reduce to an irrecoverable value in 1.1 seconds. In the climb at 60 kt, rate of climb 1,000 fpm, the total power required is 103 HP, the time would reduce to less than 1 second.
Yikes... see what you mean about concentrating.
Maybe the big issue is not contact with the ground at the end of a practice auto, but what happens at the beginning.
[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]
Thanks but that wasn't terribly reassuring, so I decided to see what I could find. This was in an aaib report.
In flight at 90 kt, 500 ft agl, the R22 needs 90 HP to maintain airspeed and altitude. If, in the event of an engine failure, the pilot maintains forward cyclic and up collective, the rotor rpm will reduce to an irrecoverable value in 1.1 seconds. In the climb at 60 kt, rate of climb 1,000 fpm, the total power required is 103 HP, the time would reduce to less than 1 second.
Yikes... see what you mean about concentrating.
Maybe the big issue is not contact with the ground at the end of a practice auto, but what happens at the beginning.
[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Gaseous ]
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gday rw-1 you said
>I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.
when i practiced we had max power apllied from the ground not as your going over the top, otherwise its not a true max performanceTO. and just one thing on the govener, it must be your grip because even at maximum power youve still got power to spare and rrpm will not go down. try to find a old thread about the tail being chopped off before tackoff due to throttle grip. i think it was under a.r.n. headsets a while back.
>I was fine, but near the top as I was bringing in the last inch of collective, I must have jerked to collective, and of course it drooped and we got light/horn. no big deal, reduced and rolled on throttle just in case the gov wasn't on it, and continued the takeoff. But it was a nice "lesson" to see, real world so to speak.
when i practiced we had max power apllied from the ground not as your going over the top, otherwise its not a true max performanceTO. and just one thing on the govener, it must be your grip because even at maximum power youve still got power to spare and rrpm will not go down. try to find a old thread about the tail being chopped off before tackoff due to throttle grip. i think it was under a.r.n. headsets a while back.
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vorticy,
The climbout did start from the ground;
Guv off. Mag check. Gov back on.
Coll increased at a steady pace, we lifted off at 22 inches that day, adjusted attitude slightly to begin forward movement into ETL.
continued bringing in the power ... then I must have brought in the last inch of coll too quickly ...
The climbout did start from the ground;
Guv off. Mag check. Gov back on.
Coll increased at a steady pace, we lifted off at 22 inches that day, adjusted attitude slightly to begin forward movement into ETL.
continued bringing in the power ... then I must have brought in the last inch of coll too quickly ...
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I don't think any of us would recover from a sudden and complete engine failure in an R22 under normal circumstances, full stop. One second is too short a time. If you were established in a descent you might have a bit of a chance, but otherwise, I think we're kidding ourselves. If and when it happens to me, and I find I've managed to establish an autorotation, I'm going to be a very happy bunny indeed. The touchdown is a matter of little concern. If you're off-airfield the best pilot in the world would probably roll it 50 percent of the time. But even if you just have a stab at the flare you'll probably get away with your life. Worry about that first second. Should we be practising throttle chops instead of touchdown autos?
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TN,
I have troubled myself long and hard about how quickley I could react on a full engine out at take of just before transistional lift into true flight, and have found that I tend to get going as fast as poss as quick as poss to transistion, and despite asking questions of very experienced pilots they all say the same," a lot down to very rapid reaction, and a tad of luck" , but no one will allow any sort of practice for this scenario( they say too risky) so I feel that your comments are about bang on!
I have troubled myself long and hard about how quickley I could react on a full engine out at take of just before transistional lift into true flight, and have found that I tend to get going as fast as poss as quick as poss to transistion, and despite asking questions of very experienced pilots they all say the same," a lot down to very rapid reaction, and a tad of luck" , but no one will allow any sort of practice for this scenario( they say too risky) so I feel that your comments are about bang on!
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Hi guys,
a little note to the R-22:
If you do it(autorotation) right you will have at least 2-3 seconds before the collective has to be down (asuming you are doing around 75-85 kts, level... when the s**t hits the fan)
The detail on the whole thing is exactly the 90 something horses the R-22 needs to keep its rotor going. It will have no sinkrate initially so there is no trading of altitude for power, all you can do is haul back a little (or a little lot if you are slow...) on the cyclic and trade some speed for power!! Thatīs what keeps the rotor rpm up (actually you do that too pronounced and you will get high rotor rpm!)
Certainly you need some speed to do that, however you always can recover speed by lowering the nose some 15-20 degrees and you should be back at 60 kts in less than 200ft.
Now, you should not get caught engine out at less then 30 kts and 200ft, most likely it will hurt.
(This did not grow on my gray cells, but is rather essential info from the Robinson Safety Course and normally gets demoed by the Course Instructor) However it is verified and works just fine (I always have to try things out....!).
I see quite a few students (even hightime heavy iron drivers) that make the mistake to slam the collective down and then PUSH THE NOSE DOWN TO "KEEP UP THE SPEED" - then they wonder why the rotor rpm goes low....
try it little by little:
a) close the throttle
b) start a little flair (something like in a moderate quickstop)
c) simultaneously lower the collective - do not slam
d) stabilize autorotation: rpm right at 100%,speed at 60-65 kts
e) once established do not move the collective any more until ready to flair, no need to move it.
Small rpm changes are mostly due to speedchanges, as soon as you stop going faster and slower the rpm will stabilize again. Chasing the rpm only wreckes your nerves - so do not jerk the collective up and down - smooth movements, please....
Remember that you also can control some rpm by changing your speed: accelerate - lose some rpm, slow down - gain rpm....( 180īs can teach you a lesson there: Everyone remebers the talk how rpm comes up in the turn - centrifugal force,g-loads, vectors, gremlins, Santa Claus......blablabla it all boils down to speed control, keep your 60 kts through the turn and the rpm will move less than 4%.......tested.....!)
Fullstop touchdown autos in a R-22 will only happen okay with less then 1/3 fuel, light occupants and at least 15-18 kts of headwinds...tested.....!
Flying without governor: Just watch your rpm until you have 18" on the manifoldp. - then the correlator works fine, just glance at the rpm indicator a bit more often and ...relax and enjoy!!
Fly safe,
3top
a little note to the R-22:
If you do it(autorotation) right you will have at least 2-3 seconds before the collective has to be down (asuming you are doing around 75-85 kts, level... when the s**t hits the fan)
The detail on the whole thing is exactly the 90 something horses the R-22 needs to keep its rotor going. It will have no sinkrate initially so there is no trading of altitude for power, all you can do is haul back a little (or a little lot if you are slow...) on the cyclic and trade some speed for power!! Thatīs what keeps the rotor rpm up (actually you do that too pronounced and you will get high rotor rpm!)
Certainly you need some speed to do that, however you always can recover speed by lowering the nose some 15-20 degrees and you should be back at 60 kts in less than 200ft.
Now, you should not get caught engine out at less then 30 kts and 200ft, most likely it will hurt.
(This did not grow on my gray cells, but is rather essential info from the Robinson Safety Course and normally gets demoed by the Course Instructor) However it is verified and works just fine (I always have to try things out....!).
I see quite a few students (even hightime heavy iron drivers) that make the mistake to slam the collective down and then PUSH THE NOSE DOWN TO "KEEP UP THE SPEED" - then they wonder why the rotor rpm goes low....
try it little by little:
a) close the throttle
b) start a little flair (something like in a moderate quickstop)
c) simultaneously lower the collective - do not slam
d) stabilize autorotation: rpm right at 100%,speed at 60-65 kts
e) once established do not move the collective any more until ready to flair, no need to move it.
Small rpm changes are mostly due to speedchanges, as soon as you stop going faster and slower the rpm will stabilize again. Chasing the rpm only wreckes your nerves - so do not jerk the collective up and down - smooth movements, please....
Remember that you also can control some rpm by changing your speed: accelerate - lose some rpm, slow down - gain rpm....( 180īs can teach you a lesson there: Everyone remebers the talk how rpm comes up in the turn - centrifugal force,g-loads, vectors, gremlins, Santa Claus......blablabla it all boils down to speed control, keep your 60 kts through the turn and the rpm will move less than 4%.......tested.....!)
Fullstop touchdown autos in a R-22 will only happen okay with less then 1/3 fuel, light occupants and at least 15-18 kts of headwinds...tested.....!
Flying without governor: Just watch your rpm until you have 18" on the manifoldp. - then the correlator works fine, just glance at the rpm indicator a bit more often and ...relax and enjoy!!
Fly safe,
3top
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3top:
Try a throttle chop in the climb at max power and 60 knots. I've done this with a trusted high-time colleague, and believe me you'll be very impressed at how rapidly RRPM decay. It's like pulling the rotor brake on. Even when you're expecting it and you're wound up like a coiled spring to react, you're unlikely to stop the drop before 90 percent. If you're not wound up like a coiled spring in the climb, it's goodnight nurse.
Try a throttle chop in the climb at max power and 60 knots. I've done this with a trusted high-time colleague, and believe me you'll be very impressed at how rapidly RRPM decay. It's like pulling the rotor brake on. Even when you're expecting it and you're wound up like a coiled spring to react, you're unlikely to stop the drop before 90 percent. If you're not wound up like a coiled spring in the climb, it's goodnight nurse.
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Im not sure if your already doing this but one of the little things that help me when I get chopped is the yaw. When I feel that nose swing the collective comes down and I establish a glide. That would especially help in the full power climb, with all that torque. We should also probably be most alert during our climb out anyways, thats when we would be in the most trouble if anything went wrong. As for the flare and final touchdown, I would be very happy if I just survived. Just a thought.
P.S. I only have about 70hrs so I am not claiming to be the final authority on this. Never even done a full down yet.
P.S. I only have about 70hrs so I am not claiming to be the final authority on this. Never even done a full down yet.
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hi tīnatural,
max power, 60kts, with 2people is interesting, roll into some bank 30-45 deg that will give you some loading of the rotor and you still can pull a little trade speed for rpm, but you are right rpm probably will get close to 90% everytime....tested. But remember 90% is just the bottom of the green. I even teach students how to fly with 90% and without governor, no big deal, just have to be vigilant (No showing off here this is in accord with the factory training manual). This is to show that the R-22 will not quit flying at 90%, hell it even will climb there quit nicely. The problem is to stay focused on the machine.
Compare it to any other helicopter: The decent rate of a Robinson (either one...)in an auto tends to be rather less then any other helicopter!!
Donīt try this if you are not really on top of the machine, but if you are solo, speed down the runway and when you get to 90 kts you start to pull up very gently and hold back until you get to 55kts all while you smoothly pull to max power - you will be going up at somewhere over 2000 ft/min for a short while.....tested..., just donīt ask what would happen if the engine quit and you are in a 55kt climb at 2000+ft/min. All that inertia going up will take for ever to just start to go down....not tested (and no intentions to..)!!
baranfin:
Donīt worry to much about the full touch down. If you keep on going for the commercial or fly regular with your privat ticket you will get to the point where you grab a good instructor and get some fulltouchd.
It will, most of the time, be like a fast running landing, just donīt pull back on touching or you leapfrog....
If you get into the auto and establish it you will survive if you keep your speed all the way down. You will do something when you get down: Adrenalin permiting you run it on and roll it or stall it at 10 feet or bend the gear straight out, whatever, remember in a real one all that counts that you and your pax walk. JUST get into the auto and you will go down anywhere from 1300-1800 ft/min....you donīt get into the auto you probably going to brake the soundbarrier - considering how aerodynamic the R-22 is!! (Altitude permitting.....)
In training it is actually a lot harder. You do not want to bend anything (although it happens..), you want to fly the machine again and again so there is a lot more stress not to scratch the baby.....
As I said, enjoy flying and sooner or later you get to do fulltouchdowns.
Fly safe,
3top
max power, 60kts, with 2people is interesting, roll into some bank 30-45 deg that will give you some loading of the rotor and you still can pull a little trade speed for rpm, but you are right rpm probably will get close to 90% everytime....tested. But remember 90% is just the bottom of the green. I even teach students how to fly with 90% and without governor, no big deal, just have to be vigilant (No showing off here this is in accord with the factory training manual). This is to show that the R-22 will not quit flying at 90%, hell it even will climb there quit nicely. The problem is to stay focused on the machine.
Compare it to any other helicopter: The decent rate of a Robinson (either one...)in an auto tends to be rather less then any other helicopter!!
Donīt try this if you are not really on top of the machine, but if you are solo, speed down the runway and when you get to 90 kts you start to pull up very gently and hold back until you get to 55kts all while you smoothly pull to max power - you will be going up at somewhere over 2000 ft/min for a short while.....tested..., just donīt ask what would happen if the engine quit and you are in a 55kt climb at 2000+ft/min. All that inertia going up will take for ever to just start to go down....not tested (and no intentions to..)!!
baranfin:
Donīt worry to much about the full touch down. If you keep on going for the commercial or fly regular with your privat ticket you will get to the point where you grab a good instructor and get some fulltouchd.
It will, most of the time, be like a fast running landing, just donīt pull back on touching or you leapfrog....
If you get into the auto and establish it you will survive if you keep your speed all the way down. You will do something when you get down: Adrenalin permiting you run it on and roll it or stall it at 10 feet or bend the gear straight out, whatever, remember in a real one all that counts that you and your pax walk. JUST get into the auto and you will go down anywhere from 1300-1800 ft/min....you donīt get into the auto you probably going to brake the soundbarrier - considering how aerodynamic the R-22 is!! (Altitude permitting.....)
In training it is actually a lot harder. You do not want to bend anything (although it happens..), you want to fly the machine again and again so there is a lot more stress not to scratch the baby.....
As I said, enjoy flying and sooner or later you get to do fulltouchdowns.
Fly safe,
3top