To Auto or not to AUTO.
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To Auto or not to AUTO.
I am a 100 Hour private pilot, flying a Bell 206 BIII, i learned in an R22 in San Antonio Texas.
My School was great, and i learned a lot of things about flying, specially radio, navigation without GPS aid, flight rules and regulations, and ofcourse to fly the robbie 22. From the moment i started my first flight, engaged the clutch i really did not liked the skishing noise of the v-belts getting tention and the Nr starting to whoosh. I proposed to my self that this was not the heli i wanted to fly all my life. After some flight time, i started to like the heli and managed to get my training done.
Everytime we went flying (me and my instructor) we did at least 5 to 8 autos, all recovered and all straight in or 180's. I managed to get the RPM very good and to make nice autos. I am a heavy guy, i am in the limits with me and my instructor, so no matter what, the RPM allways wanted to go overspeed in the flare, but it was all good.
After going to bell school in Alliance Ft.Worth, i really loved the 206, and doing touch down really boosted my confidence, i guess this should be thought on every school on every helicopter, its a most!. The way the 206 behaves on autos and flies blew my mind and it made me enjoy the whole auto very much, from doing 180's 360's straight and 0 Speed and Out of ground efect autos. I LOVED THEM SO MUCH. I trained for a whole week doing autos for about 2 or 3 days (the first days are only ground school).
After some big effort, i managed to get my self a Bell 206B III, and here was my new baby. I had been flying a lot, and i wonder if i should try to practice autos. I feel confident, but there is something inside my mind that says (Wait! you only have a 100 hours), every time i go with some instructor, i do a great job, and i think its time for me to start practicing autos on my own on safe grounds and parameters (weight, temp, humidity, wind, airport, etc) and safe places, just to build my confidence and so that i can also check the machine after the 100 hour due soon.
one thing that stops me, is that i don't want to do touch downs (its my ship now!) so why should i, the bad part is that back in bell we never did a recovered auto, and in the robbie you recover right after the flare but not in a B206 since it will take time to spool back up and it will take some little torque to do that (i guess) if you do it during the flare, you might even top something i believe. so i am guessing that i should attempt to recover right before i start the flare?.
So any thoughts would be appreciated. (Not only on the recovery, but also on the whole thing).
When was your first solo auto?
THANKS!
My School was great, and i learned a lot of things about flying, specially radio, navigation without GPS aid, flight rules and regulations, and ofcourse to fly the robbie 22. From the moment i started my first flight, engaged the clutch i really did not liked the skishing noise of the v-belts getting tention and the Nr starting to whoosh. I proposed to my self that this was not the heli i wanted to fly all my life. After some flight time, i started to like the heli and managed to get my training done.
Everytime we went flying (me and my instructor) we did at least 5 to 8 autos, all recovered and all straight in or 180's. I managed to get the RPM very good and to make nice autos. I am a heavy guy, i am in the limits with me and my instructor, so no matter what, the RPM allways wanted to go overspeed in the flare, but it was all good.
After going to bell school in Alliance Ft.Worth, i really loved the 206, and doing touch down really boosted my confidence, i guess this should be thought on every school on every helicopter, its a most!. The way the 206 behaves on autos and flies blew my mind and it made me enjoy the whole auto very much, from doing 180's 360's straight and 0 Speed and Out of ground efect autos. I LOVED THEM SO MUCH. I trained for a whole week doing autos for about 2 or 3 days (the first days are only ground school).
After some big effort, i managed to get my self a Bell 206B III, and here was my new baby. I had been flying a lot, and i wonder if i should try to practice autos. I feel confident, but there is something inside my mind that says (Wait! you only have a 100 hours), every time i go with some instructor, i do a great job, and i think its time for me to start practicing autos on my own on safe grounds and parameters (weight, temp, humidity, wind, airport, etc) and safe places, just to build my confidence and so that i can also check the machine after the 100 hour due soon.
one thing that stops me, is that i don't want to do touch downs (its my ship now!) so why should i, the bad part is that back in bell we never did a recovered auto, and in the robbie you recover right after the flare but not in a B206 since it will take time to spool back up and it will take some little torque to do that (i guess) if you do it during the flare, you might even top something i believe. so i am guessing that i should attempt to recover right before i start the flare?.
So any thoughts would be appreciated. (Not only on the recovery, but also on the whole thing).
When was your first solo auto?
THANKS!
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but there is something inside my mind that says (Wait! you only have a 100 hours), every time i go with some instructor, i do a great job, and i think its time for me to start practicing autos on my own on safe grounds and parameters (weight, temp, humidity, wind, airport, etc) and safe places, just to build my confidence and so that i can also check the machine after the 100 hour due soon.
As I understand it, there is nothing to stop you from conducting a power termination or go around on a 206. (Although this may depend upon the governor system you have.)
Post 100 hourly auto check can be done at height and doesn't need a touchdown or power termination.
Maybe you should ask the folks at your insurance company how they feel about it?
Theres a thought, are you covered by insurance if you roll it up practicing autos by yourself?
Theres a thought, are you covered by insurance if you roll it up practicing autos by yourself?
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Sounds okay to me. Get your instructor to check you out and give you the proverbial tick in the box. Then it may be a good idea to fly with an instructor every six months or so just to make sure you haven't developed any bad habbits on your own.
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I am a believer
Of feeling the aircraft, and i believe that this will help me a lot!.
i will however get an instructor to check me out.
I trully believe this is the only way to be really safe.
I had been feeling my flights much more now that i fly often and without a routine, i love it so much i am going to fly without a helicopter, but when i was a fixed wing pilot, i practiced every chance i got power off landings (at idle), just to get a feel and not loose the practice.
I believe i need to do this, to develope an instinct on how far can i go, on what conditions, what to expect, etc.
However i don't want to be a smartass.
I should probably wait until my next refresher.
What i can do, is probably start out very high.
Ahh anyhow. Keep em coming no matter what!
i will however get an instructor to check me out.
I trully believe this is the only way to be really safe.
I had been feeling my flights much more now that i fly often and without a routine, i love it so much i am going to fly without a helicopter, but when i was a fixed wing pilot, i practiced every chance i got power off landings (at idle), just to get a feel and not loose the practice.
I believe i need to do this, to develope an instinct on how far can i go, on what conditions, what to expect, etc.
However i don't want to be a smartass.
I should probably wait until my next refresher.
What i can do, is probably start out very high.
Ahh anyhow. Keep em coming no matter what!
I would certainly not recommend carrying out any autos at your present experience level.
Certainly do find out what does your insurance coverage say about this? They will probably be amazed that you even asked the question!
When I learned to fly it was all full on outos - power recovery where not usually done.
Having said that I had an engine quit doing a planned power recovery from 500 ft once. That turned into a full on so plan ahead.
Make darn sure the engine has stabilized at idle upon entry.
Perform the power recovery at altitude.
Remember that you can easily overspeed the a/c during the outo or over overtoque at the bottom end.
Power recoverys conducted to the flare and hover leave you high, slow and at low RPM if the engine decides not to co-operate at the bottom.
Instructors are cheap - tailbooms are costly.
More a/c have been wrecked by overconfident lowtimers than engine failures!
We even had a 4000 hr pilot demonstrate an auto to his mother - he called up and quit on the spot when he outo'd into a nice field that turned out to be a plowed field with 3 foot high grass.
Chopped the tailboom.
He had completed his annual training and PPC the day before.
Overconfident - you bet!
Since you ask my first solo outo was at about 600 hrs TT in a longranger when the engine blew up (N1 N2 Lockup! ). I got my very own AD!!! LOL Used to be a 2 minute cool down before that.
Certainly do find out what does your insurance coverage say about this? They will probably be amazed that you even asked the question!
When I learned to fly it was all full on outos - power recovery where not usually done.
Having said that I had an engine quit doing a planned power recovery from 500 ft once. That turned into a full on so plan ahead.
Make darn sure the engine has stabilized at idle upon entry.
Perform the power recovery at altitude.
Remember that you can easily overspeed the a/c during the outo or over overtoque at the bottom end.
Power recoverys conducted to the flare and hover leave you high, slow and at low RPM if the engine decides not to co-operate at the bottom.
Instructors are cheap - tailbooms are costly.
More a/c have been wrecked by overconfident lowtimers than engine failures!
We even had a 4000 hr pilot demonstrate an auto to his mother - he called up and quit on the spot when he outo'd into a nice field that turned out to be a plowed field with 3 foot high grass.
Chopped the tailboom.
He had completed his annual training and PPC the day before.
Overconfident - you bet!
Since you ask my first solo outo was at about 600 hrs TT in a longranger when the engine blew up (N1 N2 Lockup! ). I got my very own AD!!! LOL Used to be a 2 minute cool down before that.
"Just a pilot"
Was I you, I'd find myself a good instructer to ride along with me while I did those autorotations. First, at a 100 hours, there are volumes more to be learned about helo flying, and especially autos. Learn and do it right from the start, and you'll do it right forever, and be a better pilot for it.
One of the real advantages I had as a new pilot was flying as part of a two pilot crew and do the job. That is the safest configuration, and especially for newer pilots. A CFI along will give you that advantage.
One of the real advantages I had as a new pilot was flying as part of a two pilot crew and do the job. That is the safest configuration, and especially for newer pilots. A CFI along will give you that advantage.
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I agree with the consensus so far - find a good 206 CFI and get the answers to the questions you still have - you certainly wouldn't want to learn what NOT to do while solo.
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I don't think you should ask this question here for one simple reason, nobody has flown with you, thus nobody knows what your judgement and skill level at present time.
Anybody that without knowing how you fly recomends you go out and do autos doesn't mind if you end up in ball, and on the other side anybody who definately rules out the possiblility of you doing autos just because you have 100 hrs. is also wrong.
I've known 5,000 hr dangerous pilots and 180 hour excellent, and safe pilots.
Having 100 hours doesn't mean you are dumb and can't do it, some of the guys landing FA-18's in aircraft carriers at night have 400 hours! Most PGR guys that learned to fly there had 120 total hours when they were sent to the mountains to work, and trust me they could do auto's alone. The 206 is very easy to auto too.
I think you should contact one of the PGR instructors and have him go along with you on some of your flights, they do touchdowns in 206's and 212's all day, ask him where he considers your skill level to be at and if he considers it smart for you to go out and practice autos alone, then it's up to you.
What ever you do, if you are going to do this alone, do it ALONE, not with friends or girls, It's inherently risky even the best pilot can have a mishap while doing this.
Anybody that without knowing how you fly recomends you go out and do autos doesn't mind if you end up in ball, and on the other side anybody who definately rules out the possiblility of you doing autos just because you have 100 hrs. is also wrong.
I've known 5,000 hr dangerous pilots and 180 hour excellent, and safe pilots.
Having 100 hours doesn't mean you are dumb and can't do it, some of the guys landing FA-18's in aircraft carriers at night have 400 hours! Most PGR guys that learned to fly there had 120 total hours when they were sent to the mountains to work, and trust me they could do auto's alone. The 206 is very easy to auto too.
I think you should contact one of the PGR instructors and have him go along with you on some of your flights, they do touchdowns in 206's and 212's all day, ask him where he considers your skill level to be at and if he considers it smart for you to go out and practice autos alone, then it's up to you.
What ever you do, if you are going to do this alone, do it ALONE, not with friends or girls, It's inherently risky even the best pilot can have a mishap while doing this.
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my advice:
dont risk it. imagine how you would feel after stuffing it into the ground and the insurance wont pay up
yes, autos can be fun, but engine failures are extremely rare
100 hours is bugger all experience. get a CFI on-board and keep learning and be safe
dont risk it. imagine how you would feel after stuffing it into the ground and the insurance wont pay up
yes, autos can be fun, but engine failures are extremely rare
100 hours is bugger all experience. get a CFI on-board and keep learning and be safe
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Auto's in a jetranger
Personal opinion, but I'd say don't do it in your own machine. Its your premiums that will be pushed up if you have a mishap, and its not all that hard for that to happen.
Robinson brought out a supplement that stated that more accidents happen because of practise auto's, than of real engine failures. That statement is a favourite with insurance companies, and they like bringing the supplent into accident investigations.
Opening the power on a jetranger for a recovery is tricky in some jetti's, and I've heard of cases of the engine taking up to 8 seconds to spool up.
If you dont want to touch down, then you might as well leave the throttle open, and dump the collective. Keep the rotor RPM high in the green, and you've got a relatively safe auto, with power available on demand.
Beware of compressor stalls though. If it barks close to the ground, you might get a bit of a surprise.
Robinson brought out a supplement that stated that more accidents happen because of practise auto's, than of real engine failures. That statement is a favourite with insurance companies, and they like bringing the supplent into accident investigations.
Opening the power on a jetranger for a recovery is tricky in some jetti's, and I've heard of cases of the engine taking up to 8 seconds to spool up.
If you dont want to touch down, then you might as well leave the throttle open, and dump the collective. Keep the rotor RPM high in the green, and you've got a relatively safe auto, with power available on demand.
Beware of compressor stalls though. If it barks close to the ground, you might get a bit of a surprise.
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Thanks Yall.
Buttom Line : Get a CFI to check my level and skill.
Insurance : This is a tricky one, if you get an engine failure (knock on wood), they will want not to pay for lack of auto training
But you are right.
My Ship : Its true? Why risk it? But again, why not know the machine?
Alone : Alone=Solo, Solo=Alone. No Girls (Damn it!), No friends, no anything. Its a good point though, but i never intended to bring anyone except a CFI with me.
About my confidence : I am confident, again i have great respect to the machine, i don't like doing stupid things with it, but i trully believe that autos, while dangerous they are not that very dangerous if you have the power to call it quits on time. Again, i will do this with altitude and speed, no other stupid thing.
Buttom Button line : I will wait until my next refresh to ask my instructor and do this. And again, i will probably not do it at all.
About this forum being the wrong place, you are totally right, although some blind opinions are good.
About slamming the collective down, with power. You will have to beep it down too much to prevent N2 OVSP, and i believe its more dangerous to pull the collective at the end with power and down beep. Even if you beep it up its to hard to control what the RPM will do and its too hard to prevent and under or over-speed.
About the compressor stall... Even with the throttle open, i believe (and i might be wrong), its extreamely difficult to have a compressor stall in the 206 Allison (RR) engine. But then again, i might be wrong with this one.
BUTTOM BUTTOM BOTTOM LINE : Thanks everyone.
Any more comments, keep em coming.
BlenderPilot : What's your story? When was your first solo auto? (It was early on huh?)
Insurance : This is a tricky one, if you get an engine failure (knock on wood), they will want not to pay for lack of auto training
But you are right.My Ship : Its true? Why risk it? But again, why not know the machine?
Alone : Alone=Solo, Solo=Alone. No Girls (Damn it!), No friends, no anything. Its a good point though, but i never intended to bring anyone except a CFI with me.
About my confidence : I am confident, again i have great respect to the machine, i don't like doing stupid things with it, but i trully believe that autos, while dangerous they are not that very dangerous if you have the power to call it quits on time. Again, i will do this with altitude and speed, no other stupid thing.
Buttom Button line : I will wait until my next refresh to ask my instructor and do this. And again, i will probably not do it at all.
About this forum being the wrong place, you are totally right, although some blind opinions are good.
About slamming the collective down, with power. You will have to beep it down too much to prevent N2 OVSP, and i believe its more dangerous to pull the collective at the end with power and down beep. Even if you beep it up its to hard to control what the RPM will do and its too hard to prevent and under or over-speed.
About the compressor stall... Even with the throttle open, i believe (and i might be wrong), its extreamely difficult to have a compressor stall in the 206 Allison (RR) engine. But then again, i might be wrong with this one.
BUTTOM BUTTOM BOTTOM LINE : Thanks everyone.
Any more comments, keep em coming.
BlenderPilot : What's your story? When was your first solo auto?
(It was early on huh?)
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Kiko,
I saw your webpage and there was something that really caught my attention, and made me laugh so much.
You have the invitation to the FlyIn and at the bottom of the invitation you have the warning telling pilots "NO ALCOHOL OR LOW FLYBY'S"!
That has to be a classic! Now I know why everybody thinks we Mexican Pilots are Crazy!
I saw your webpage and there was something that really caught my attention, and made me laugh so much.
You have the invitation to the FlyIn and at the bottom of the invitation you have the warning telling pilots "NO ALCOHOL OR LOW FLYBY'S"!
That has to be a classic! Now I know why everybody thinks we Mexican Pilots are Crazy!
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Jejejeje
Yes it is a classic....
We did the fly in and it was great. But if you don't put this kinds of rules, everybody will start drinking and flying low..... HUNK!.. Not a good thing to have on a private airport where you are responsible for everything.
Ohh and just to clarify, we are crazy.
We did the fly in and it was great. But if you don't put this kinds of rules, everybody will start drinking and flying low..... HUNK!.. Not a good thing to have on a private airport where you are responsible for everything.
Ohh and just to clarify, we are crazy.
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Hi
Here's my pennyworth. When I converted to 206, having flown most of my time in the R44, I was told that I should never practise autos on my own without an instructor and was never allowed to handle the throttle during auto. I was in fact converting for commercial work and have a CPL. So I guess the answer is go practise with an instructor. Remember, if the engine fails there isnt going to be a great deal of throttle management! And it is when rolling the throttle on at the bottom of a recovery auto that things can go wrong. This is particulalry the case with 22s and 44s where incident reports continue to show overspeeds during recovery from autos.
Here's my pennyworth. When I converted to 206, having flown most of my time in the R44, I was told that I should never practise autos on my own without an instructor and was never allowed to handle the throttle during auto. I was in fact converting for commercial work and have a CPL. So I guess the answer is go practise with an instructor. Remember, if the engine fails there isnt going to be a great deal of throttle management! And it is when rolling the throttle on at the bottom of a recovery auto that things can go wrong. This is particulalry the case with 22s and 44s where incident reports continue to show overspeeds during recovery from autos.
My, my, my. Aren't we a bunch of wussie worry-warts! Kiko, if you want to go out and practice autorotations in your own ship, GO RIGHT AHEAD! Just be careful, okay? Pick your day. Pick your area. Don't bring anybody with you and more importantly, don't even have anybody come out to watch! Then go have some fun, man!
Oh yeah, you will crash. Eventually.
Here are some things to think about:
You'll get bored. Bored with autorotations?! Wh-wh-wh-WHAAAT?! Yup. Very quickly, in fact. You'll get proficient with straight-ins to a runway from 500 feet. Face it, in a 206 they're a piece of pie. Nothing to 'em. So you'll look for ways to <ahem> "expand your envelope." I'm not saying that the following will happen all on the same day but I can pretty much guarantee the process that WILL ensue over time.
From straight-ins, you'll graduate to 180's from a 500 foot cruise, which are fun. After awhile you'll figure that since a 180 from 500 is so easy you just might as well try a 360. Why not? Get good at those and you'll start doing 180's from 300 feet. Then...trust me on this...you'll start doing 360's from 300 feet. Just to see if you can, heh-heh. And you can. And they're a blast! Finally, you'll start doing throttle-chops from a high hover to the ground. You'll start at 500 feet and gradually get lower and lower just to see what that ol' 206 will do. And she'll do a lot.
And somewhere along the way you'll prang it. You'll try something that you really don't have the experience to pull off...something that an instructor might see coming LONG before you do. And by the time you do, things will be so out-of-hand that even Chuckie Yeager couldn't recover. Result: one broken bird and maybe one dead pilot.
But is an instructor always a guarantee that things will work out right? Not on your life!
Read this accident report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X08867&key=1
Click on the full narrative. These two jokers were evidently so focused on the fact that they did not get a N2/NR needle split that they let the autorotation get screwed up to the point that they crashed. And the crash killed one of them. Too bad they were not more familiar with the ship. (The will it/won't it needle-split question was discussed in an earlier thread. Bottom line: it won't always.)
Finally, here's a thing that bugs me about one of your posts, Kiko. You said:
No, no, no. Wrong on so many counts!
You do not, EVER "slam the collective down" in a 206. If you want to simulate an autorotative descent, merely make a flat-pitch approach. "Slamming" the collective down does not approximate an engine failure and will only get you into trouble. Make your entries smooth. If you leave the throttle open, the governor will keep your NR at 100% even at light weights when the NR would be lower than 100% with the throttle at idle. Such a flat-pitch approach is not technically "autorotative" but it's close enough for government work.
Strange as it sounds, there is usually not much difference in N1 between full-throttle/flat-pitch and flight-idle/flat-pitch. I have flown ships in which you really couldn't tell if the throttle was on or off (full or idle) by looking at the gauges. You can easily demonstrate this for yourself if you doubt it. So the key in a power-recovery auto is to GET THE THROTTLE UP EARLY. By the time you get to 300 feet agl you should be lined up with your lane (into the wind), airspeed good, rpm in the green, and throttle to full. Then, all you have to do is flare and cushion to a hover. GENTLY, I said! This ain't no Robbie. And don't hit the tail.
Secondly, do NOT beep the thing down. If you have to, this tells me a couple of things. 1) Your governor is old and probably needs overhaul or at very least your droop compensator linkage needs adjustment. 2) You are doing your practice autos at too high a weight. Remember, auto rpm gets LOWER the lighter you are. In a 206B with just a pilot on board and 30-40 gallons of fuel, the steady-state auto rpm will and should be something LESS than 100%. So if you're empty during your practice auto, then you should not be seeing an NR/N2 overspeed situation. 3) Maybe you are "slamming" the collective down and unloading the rotor too quickly.
Sounds to me like you probably should not be playing around much on your own. You really are too inexperienced to be experimenting. Go out and do some straight-ins if you like, but heed my words above - sooner or later you WILL get your butt in a crack that you can't get it out of. Ask me how I know! Luckily, I never crashed anything, but I came *mighty* close a couple of times.
Now, aren't you glad you read this book on practice autos? Speaking of books, get and read the "Flying your Bell JetRanger" book that Bell puts out (used to put out?). It's got a wealth of information. It sounds like you could use it.
Oh yeah, you will crash. Eventually.
Here are some things to think about:
You'll get bored. Bored with autorotations?! Wh-wh-wh-WHAAAT?! Yup. Very quickly, in fact. You'll get proficient with straight-ins to a runway from 500 feet. Face it, in a 206 they're a piece of pie. Nothing to 'em. So you'll look for ways to <ahem> "expand your envelope." I'm not saying that the following will happen all on the same day but I can pretty much guarantee the process that WILL ensue over time.
From straight-ins, you'll graduate to 180's from a 500 foot cruise, which are fun. After awhile you'll figure that since a 180 from 500 is so easy you just might as well try a 360. Why not? Get good at those and you'll start doing 180's from 300 feet. Then...trust me on this...you'll start doing 360's from 300 feet. Just to see if you can, heh-heh. And you can. And they're a blast! Finally, you'll start doing throttle-chops from a high hover to the ground. You'll start at 500 feet and gradually get lower and lower just to see what that ol' 206 will do. And she'll do a lot.
And somewhere along the way you'll prang it. You'll try something that you really don't have the experience to pull off...something that an instructor might see coming LONG before you do. And by the time you do, things will be so out-of-hand that even Chuckie Yeager couldn't recover. Result: one broken bird and maybe one dead pilot.
But is an instructor always a guarantee that things will work out right? Not on your life!
Read this accident report: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X08867&key=1
Click on the full narrative. These two jokers were evidently so focused on the fact that they did not get a N2/NR needle split that they let the autorotation get screwed up to the point that they crashed. And the crash killed one of them. Too bad they were not more familiar with the ship. (The will it/won't it needle-split question was discussed in an earlier thread. Bottom line: it won't always.)
Finally, here's a thing that bugs me about one of your posts, Kiko. You said:
About slamming the collective down, with power. You will have to beep it down too much to prevent N2 OVSP, and i believe its more dangerous to pull the collective at the end with power and down beep. Even if you beep it up its to hard to control what the RPM will do and its too hard to prevent and under or over-speed.
You do not, EVER "slam the collective down" in a 206. If you want to simulate an autorotative descent, merely make a flat-pitch approach. "Slamming" the collective down does not approximate an engine failure and will only get you into trouble. Make your entries smooth. If you leave the throttle open, the governor will keep your NR at 100% even at light weights when the NR would be lower than 100% with the throttle at idle. Such a flat-pitch approach is not technically "autorotative" but it's close enough for government work.
Strange as it sounds, there is usually not much difference in N1 between full-throttle/flat-pitch and flight-idle/flat-pitch. I have flown ships in which you really couldn't tell if the throttle was on or off (full or idle) by looking at the gauges. You can easily demonstrate this for yourself if you doubt it. So the key in a power-recovery auto is to GET THE THROTTLE UP EARLY. By the time you get to 300 feet agl you should be lined up with your lane (into the wind), airspeed good, rpm in the green, and throttle to full. Then, all you have to do is flare and cushion to a hover. GENTLY, I said! This ain't no Robbie. And don't hit the tail.
Secondly, do NOT beep the thing down. If you have to, this tells me a couple of things. 1) Your governor is old and probably needs overhaul or at very least your droop compensator linkage needs adjustment. 2) You are doing your practice autos at too high a weight. Remember, auto rpm gets LOWER the lighter you are. In a 206B with just a pilot on board and 30-40 gallons of fuel, the steady-state auto rpm will and should be something LESS than 100%. So if you're empty during your practice auto, then you should not be seeing an NR/N2 overspeed situation. 3) Maybe you are "slamming" the collective down and unloading the rotor too quickly.
Sounds to me like you probably should not be playing around much on your own. You really are too inexperienced to be experimenting. Go out and do some straight-ins if you like, but heed my words above - sooner or later you WILL get your butt in a crack that you can't get it out of. Ask me how I know! Luckily, I never crashed anything, but I came *mighty* close a couple of times.
Now, aren't you glad you read this book on practice autos? Speaking of books, get and read the "Flying your Bell JetRanger" book that Bell puts out (used to put out?). It's got a wealth of information. It sounds like you could use it.
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Are you saying that a safe and realistic practice for autos in an R22 to power recovery can be made by leaving the governor on and simply lowering the collective without bothering to seperate the needles? Does this have much affect on glide distance?
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PPRUNE FAN #1.
You are mostly right, i wont do it...
About the N2 going up, its a fact of life that if you drop collective down it will tend to put RPM high, ofcours probably if i go solo it wont, but the only reason i used this is because i had to descent very fast into a ridge, so i did but N2 did came up i had 2 more passangers on board.
Am i inexperience? You bettcha... So i wont get into something i can't handle... PROMISE...
Thanks!
About the N2 going up, its a fact of life that if you drop collective down it will tend to put RPM high, ofcours probably if i go solo it wont, but the only reason i used this is because i had to descent very fast into a ridge, so i did but N2 did came up i had 2 more passangers on board.
Am i inexperience? You bettcha... So i wont get into something i can't handle... PROMISE...
Thanks!
cholmondeley:
We're talking about a 206B here.
Kiko:
Promise all you want. The accident reports are chock-full of events that pilots couldn't handle. Don't believe me? Check www.faa.gov. Then click "Accident and Incident Data" and click through to "Preliminary Data." The page that will open up gives you access to the last two weeks worth of accidents/incidents as reported to and by the FAA. You'll see that on a pretty routine basis Americans are crashing about ten aircraft per day. I'll bet you real money that if you could go back in time and ask every pilot in each one of those incidents if they planned on crashing on that flight they would have told you, "Hell, no! I'm not going to get into anything I can't handle!"
And you think *you* are immune? You think that *you* won't ever get into a situation you can't handle? You might reply, "Well, not on purpose, not deliberately. I won't deliberately do anything dumb."
Heh.
The problem with that statement is that just committing aviation is "doing something dumb." Leaving the ground involves a certain amount of risk. Merely making the decision to take off might be the "something dumb"...the first falling domino that precipitates an accident. If you study accidents long enough, you'll find some where you can trace the chain-of-events right back to the decision to start the engine and go. You say to yourself, "If he only hadn't taken off...if only he'd just sat on the ground..."
So you're a pilot. You can't say with certainty that you won't get into situations you can't handle. None of us can! It is assured that if you continue flying you will get into plenty of "situations." Some will be just those random things that crop up on flights sometimes (nosewheel refusing to retract and getting stuck pointed 90 degrees to the direction of travel, say, as happened to a JetBlue Airbus crew recently), and some will be of your own making. You will either handle these things appropriately or you'll end up in the accident reports.
Complicating this whole mess is the fact that we all want to be the best pilots we can be. The best pilots know their own limitations, right? But if you never push yourself and find those limits, how do you know where they are? Or how do you expand them? Flying the most perfectest traffic pattern in all the world doesn't tell us (or you) anything about how good a pilot you are. But doing a touchdown zero-ground-run auto to a specific stripe on a runway sure does! Sure, some improvement in skill can be obtained with an experienced instructor along with you. But sometimes, we just have to get out there and do stuff by ourselves when there's no CFI on board to save the day.
Friend of mine was a line pilot for a fixed-wing operation in Puerto Rico back in the 1950's. Then one day the owner of the company bought a helicopter (Hiller 12). The Chief Pilot didn't like it and didn't want to fly it. But my friend rose to the challenge, got a basic check-out by the factory pilot/instructor (this was back before there was a separate Rotorcraft rating in the U.S.) then went out by himself to teach himself how to do autorotations. Risky? You bet! But he was careful and conservative, and he turned out to be one of the finest pilots I've ever flown with. (His name was Perry Young. He was a member of the Tuskeegee Airmen and he died not long ago.)
Whenever I fly, I still practice. I practice everything...although you might not notice it if you were riding with me. I practice lifting off the ground smoothly, and I practice precision approaches, to a specific spot - not just terminating...wherever. I practice lots of stuff, because I know that some day, despite my superior judgement, I might get into one of those situations where my superior skill (which I prefer to not use) will have to come into play. And you know what? Sometimes...rarely, but sometimes, I still get myself into those situations. Don't think it won't happen to you too.
Finally, I still say that the governor in your B-model is too "loose" or you're making your power changes waaaaay to fast. Probably the latter. Learn to be smoother with that JetRanger. Plan your power changes better. Learn to anticipate. Start easing the power out earlier - 206's take some time to slow down and they don't like to be rushed. Never move the collective faster than the torquemeter can keep up. It's a fun aircraft, but if you horse it around we'll just end up reading about you.
Are you saying that a safe and realistic practice for autos in an R22 to power recovery can be made by leaving the governor on and simply lowering the collective without bothering to seperate the needles?
Kiko:
Am i inexperienced? You betcha... So i wont get into something i can't handle... PROMISE...
And you think *you* are immune? You think that *you* won't ever get into a situation you can't handle? You might reply, "Well, not on purpose, not deliberately. I won't deliberately do anything dumb."
Heh.
The problem with that statement is that just committing aviation is "doing something dumb." Leaving the ground involves a certain amount of risk. Merely making the decision to take off might be the "something dumb"...the first falling domino that precipitates an accident. If you study accidents long enough, you'll find some where you can trace the chain-of-events right back to the decision to start the engine and go. You say to yourself, "If he only hadn't taken off...if only he'd just sat on the ground..."
So you're a pilot. You can't say with certainty that you won't get into situations you can't handle. None of us can! It is assured that if you continue flying you will get into plenty of "situations." Some will be just those random things that crop up on flights sometimes (nosewheel refusing to retract and getting stuck pointed 90 degrees to the direction of travel, say, as happened to a JetBlue Airbus crew recently), and some will be of your own making. You will either handle these things appropriately or you'll end up in the accident reports.
Complicating this whole mess is the fact that we all want to be the best pilots we can be. The best pilots know their own limitations, right? But if you never push yourself and find those limits, how do you know where they are? Or how do you expand them? Flying the most perfectest traffic pattern in all the world doesn't tell us (or you) anything about how good a pilot you are. But doing a touchdown zero-ground-run auto to a specific stripe on a runway sure does! Sure, some improvement in skill can be obtained with an experienced instructor along with you. But sometimes, we just have to get out there and do stuff by ourselves when there's no CFI on board to save the day.
Friend of mine was a line pilot for a fixed-wing operation in Puerto Rico back in the 1950's. Then one day the owner of the company bought a helicopter (Hiller 12). The Chief Pilot didn't like it and didn't want to fly it. But my friend rose to the challenge, got a basic check-out by the factory pilot/instructor (this was back before there was a separate Rotorcraft rating in the U.S.) then went out by himself to teach himself how to do autorotations. Risky? You bet! But he was careful and conservative, and he turned out to be one of the finest pilots I've ever flown with. (His name was Perry Young. He was a member of the Tuskeegee Airmen and he died not long ago.)
Whenever I fly, I still practice. I practice everything...although you might not notice it if you were riding with me. I practice lifting off the ground smoothly, and I practice precision approaches, to a specific spot - not just terminating...wherever. I practice lots of stuff, because I know that some day, despite my superior judgement, I might get into one of those situations where my superior skill (which I prefer to not use) will have to come into play. And you know what? Sometimes...rarely, but sometimes, I still get myself into those situations. Don't think it won't happen to you too.
Finally, I still say that the governor in your B-model is too "loose" or you're making your power changes waaaaay to fast. Probably the latter. Learn to be smoother with that JetRanger. Plan your power changes better. Learn to anticipate. Start easing the power out earlier - 206's take some time to slow down and they don't like to be rushed. Never move the collective faster than the torquemeter can keep up. It's a fun aircraft, but if you horse it around we'll just end up reading about you.