Bell 429
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Europe
It's an unfair procedure in a global market to give a single company a very special excemption, which means a heavy input on sales and operation.
It means opening Pandora's box. The next excemption should have uncle Frank for his special R-66 hyd system and the next the AS 355 on performance classes and Cat A. What's the next?
It means opening Pandora's box. The next excemption should have uncle Frank for his special R-66 hyd system and the next the AS 355 on performance classes and Cat A. What's the next?
Last edited by tecpilot; 19th March 2013 at 10:19.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: here
I would have to agree with Shawn. It's about passengers not weight.
I'll concede that Bell screwed up the 429 with respect to weight and certification. Agreed!
This argument shouldn't be about whether this exemption is better for one manufacturer or the other but what is good for the RW community as a whole. As it stands now Part 27 is 7,000 lbs or less and 9 passengers or less. [14CFR 27.1(a)]. As far as I know not one of the newer part 27 machines can carry 9 passengers. EC135=7, A119 =7, A109 & Grand New=7, 429=7. Did I miss any? All those numbers came from each OEMs propaganda. Does this not imply that we are short changing our capabilities (by 2 passengers) based on an arbitrary weight limitation? Would the RW community as a whole not be better served if Part 27 Normal category reflected Part 23 Normal category of 12,500 lbs or less, 9 passengers or less?
It appears what Bell has done, albeit accidentally, is to open the discussion into changing 27/29 requirements. The FAA is now asking for comments and is willing to rewrite 27/29 as they recently have done with 23 if the community thinks it's necessary.
Again, instead of looking at this as a 'my favorite manufacturer vs. your favorite manufacturer' lets consider what the RW community needs in the future and whether you really think that can be accomplished with a 7000 lb Part 27 limit and the extra certification cost to meet Part 29 requirements for everything above that?
I'll concede that Bell screwed up the 429 with respect to weight and certification. Agreed!
This argument shouldn't be about whether this exemption is better for one manufacturer or the other but what is good for the RW community as a whole. As it stands now Part 27 is 7,000 lbs or less and 9 passengers or less. [14CFR 27.1(a)]. As far as I know not one of the newer part 27 machines can carry 9 passengers. EC135=7, A119 =7, A109 & Grand New=7, 429=7. Did I miss any? All those numbers came from each OEMs propaganda. Does this not imply that we are short changing our capabilities (by 2 passengers) based on an arbitrary weight limitation? Would the RW community as a whole not be better served if Part 27 Normal category reflected Part 23 Normal category of 12,500 lbs or less, 9 passengers or less?
It appears what Bell has done, albeit accidentally, is to open the discussion into changing 27/29 requirements. The FAA is now asking for comments and is willing to rewrite 27/29 as they recently have done with 23 if the community thinks it's necessary.
Again, instead of looking at this as a 'my favorite manufacturer vs. your favorite manufacturer' lets consider what the RW community needs in the future and whether you really think that can be accomplished with a 7000 lb Part 27 limit and the extra certification cost to meet Part 29 requirements for everything above that?
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 917
Likes: 11
From: Tax-land.
Pt 29 Engine bay fire protection and separation.
Hi, can anybody confirm that Pt27 and Pt29 have the same requirements regarding engine bay fire certification with respect to separation and containment time?
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,951
Likes: 90
From: After all, what’s more important than proving to someone on the internet that they’re wrong? - Manson
The numbers would be easily achieved if you only had one engine.
It gets difficult when you have two which everyone seems to want for some reason.
Is the single versus twin engine debate still valid?
It gets difficult when you have two which everyone seems to want for some reason.
Is the single versus twin engine debate still valid?
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 144
Likes: 4
From: Depends on the day!
Wheeled Bell 429 promises speed advantage | Vertical Magazine - The Pulse of the Helicopter Industry
According to Bell, recent test data indicates that the retractable wheeled landing gear on the 429WLG will give it a five-knot speed advantage over the baseline, skid-equipped version. Bell is already accepting orders for the model, which it expects to have certified and available for customers in the fall 2013 timeframe.
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
From: Resting in shade
Five knots is five knots, but 250 pounds is 250 pounds.
The Fat Ranger is getting Fatter!
Yeah, yeah,... same ol' story, they all are just about to certify it... 
The Fat Ranger is getting Fatter!
The wheeled landing gear will add weight, however — about 250 pounds (113 kilograms). That will be more of a concern in countries that have not followed Transport Canada’s lead in granting a 500-pound exemption to the 429’s originally certified maximum gross weight (MGW) of 7,000 pounds, the regulatory maximum for helicopters certified under Federal Aviation Regulations Part 27 requirements.
Although 17 countries have now approved a 7,500-pound MGW for the 429, the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) last year denied Bell’s request for a weight exemption, suggesting it “would present Bell Canada, Bell 429 operators and their customers with an economic advantage over their Part 27 competitors since their competitors are limited to a 7,000-pound MGW” (Bell appealed the ruling). In February of this year, however, the FAA said it would consider a comprehensive rulemaking process that would eliminate the current weight standard for rotorcraft certification, acknowledging that the evolution of Part 27 and Part 29 rules has not kept pace with the technology and capability of newer rotorcraft.
Although 17 countries have now approved a 7,500-pound MGW for the 429, the United States Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) last year denied Bell’s request for a weight exemption, suggesting it “would present Bell Canada, Bell 429 operators and their customers with an economic advantage over their Part 27 competitors since their competitors are limited to a 7,000-pound MGW” (Bell appealed the ruling). In February of this year, however, the FAA said it would consider a comprehensive rulemaking process that would eliminate the current weight standard for rotorcraft certification, acknowledging that the evolution of Part 27 and Part 29 rules has not kept pace with the technology and capability of newer rotorcraft.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
Out of curiosity is the National Grid heli still the only 429 on the UK register?
Does anyone have an idea about the overall volume of 429 sales and how the aircraft is being received generally?
Does anyone have an idea about the overall volume of 429 sales and how the aircraft is being received generally?
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 44
From: Europe
.
43 Bell 429 deliverd last year. 2 aircrafts delivered in Europe in 4 years (Air Zermatt and National Grid)
I can't get figures about AW109 Power and GrandNew unfortunatelly but reading the news releases, I know that AW is selling very well the GrandNew.
149 EC135 and EC145 delivered last year.
.
43 Bell 429 deliverd last year. 2 aircrafts delivered in Europe in 4 years (Air Zermatt and National Grid)
I can't get figures about AW109 Power and GrandNew unfortunatelly but reading the news releases, I know that AW is selling very well the GrandNew.
149 EC135 and EC145 delivered last year.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 17th July 2013 at 14:25.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,536
Likes: 295
From: The Alps
@ Anthony,
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety
Only one came up in the search
And courtesy of the Aeroboek website of it being at the Bell European Completion Centre in Prague
Cheers
GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety
Only one came up in the search
And courtesy of the Aeroboek website of it being at the Bell European Completion Centre in Prague
Cheers
Last edited by chopper2004; 17th July 2013 at 13:10.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
Henry & Chopper, thanks.
Disappointing European sales so far.
Hope that changes.
I've noticed Ian Corrigible seems to have access to sales figures? Ian if this is so and if you read this would you be willing to put up a "sales figures thread"?
Would be v. interesting to hear about global heli sales.
Indeed. It seems to be a much sought after heli. Sleek, good performance, not too big etc.
Disappointing European sales so far.
Hope that changes. I've noticed Ian Corrigible seems to have access to sales figures? Ian if this is so and if you read this would you be willing to put up a "sales figures thread"?
Would be v. interesting to hear about global heli sales.
I know that AW is selling very well the GrandNew.
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,536
Likes: 295
From: The Alps
@ Anthony,
Glad to be of help and maybe this might be of interest as well
UK ? National Grid to move operations to Turweston | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Cheers
Glad to be of help and maybe this might be of interest as well
UK ? National Grid to move operations to Turweston | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source
Cheers
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,796
Likes: 1
From: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Oh crap, they've found me. 
Further to Henri's data, 2012 sales (bookings) based on OEM data were as follows:
AW109 GrandNew:........~20 (2011 = ~10)
B429:............................43 (2011 = 28)
EC135/EC635:................63 (2011 = 42)
EC145/EC645/UH-72:......81 (2011 = 104)
As of March Bell announced 90 429s in service, with 130 built. As of this month S/N 57157 is on the build line at Mirabel.
I/C
Further to Henri's data, 2012 sales (bookings) based on OEM data were as follows:
AW109 GrandNew:........~20 (2011 = ~10)
B429:............................43 (2011 = 28)
EC135/EC635:................63 (2011 = 42)
EC145/EC645/UH-72:......81 (2011 = 104)
As of March Bell announced 90 429s in service, with 130 built. As of this month S/N 57157 is on the build line at Mirabel.
I/C
Last edited by Ian Corrigible; 17th July 2013 at 14:12.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 44
From: Europe
.
Sorry, my figures above (and under) are deliveries to a customer (including a dealer) and not sales (I made an edit above).
So for 2011 and 2012 :
Bell 429 : 28 and 43
EC135 / EC145 : 163 and 149
.
Sorry, my figures above (and under) are deliveries to a customer (including a dealer) and not sales (I made an edit above).
So for 2011 and 2012 :
Bell 429 : 28 and 43
EC135 / EC145 : 163 and 149
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 17th July 2013 at 15:14.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
FSXDriver - nicely put. 
Rotorhub - News - Shephard
The Royal Australian Navy’s (RAN) Bell 429 helicopter has been upgraded to allow operations at an internal gross weight of 7,500lbs as part of the Retention and Motivation Initiative 2 programme (RMI 2).
The capability upgrade was delivered by Raytheon Australia in cooperation with the RAN under a $26 million four-year contract.
The capability upgrade was delivered by Raytheon Australia in cooperation with the RAN under a $26 million four-year contract.
Rotorhub - News - Shephard
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 787
Likes: 44
From: Europe
.
Hello FSXP ,
Regarding the deliveries figures, you should ask the operators of that category of aircraft, they must have a lot of good reasons.
The 429 is a good aircraft but it's not the only one as you seem to think.
.
If you can afford to buy the 429 why would you buy a Eurocopter?
Regarding the deliveries figures, you should ask the operators of that category of aircraft, they must have a lot of good reasons.
The 429 is a good aircraft but it's not the only one as you seem to think.
.
Last edited by HeliHenri; 18th July 2013 at 08:52.