North Sea Crash
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With John Eacott's alleged experience, I'm suprised he would consider bringinging the speed selects back to "idle" on a moving deck. You want to stay in maximum controllability mode if there is a risk of inadvertent aircraft movement. Flying the disk on deck is not something I would recommend unless there is a good chance you might have to lift off in a hurry - which is not good for those on the helideck. If the disk is kept parallel with the horizon, a more controlled lift off is likely. If the situation is such that the pilot thinks that the deck movement is likely to cause the aircraft to slide, he shouldn't be there in the first place unless other protections are provided. Not easy to turn away when you have flown all the way to your ship and the vessel is very close to deck movement limits.
The problem is excacibated when deck movement is reported by the ships crew and it is them who want to get on the helicopter to get home. It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation into the West Navion accident and the accuracy of the reported deck movement prior to the aircraft landing.
As to John's story about a Bolkow sliding of the back off the Capalonga, I think his imagination is being a bit over active - but why spoil a good story with the truth.
(why do I never see the typos until after I've posted the message!)
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: coalface ]
The problem is excacibated when deck movement is reported by the ships crew and it is them who want to get on the helicopter to get home. It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation into the West Navion accident and the accuracy of the reported deck movement prior to the aircraft landing.
As to John's story about a Bolkow sliding of the back off the Capalonga, I think his imagination is being a bit over active - but why spoil a good story with the truth.
(why do I never see the typos until after I've posted the message!)
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: coalface ]
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To: coalface
I hate to keep harping on my experience aboard Coast Guard icebreakers as it took place 49 years ago but it is still relevant. We had two helicopters aboard the CGC Eastwind one was a Bell HTL-1 (B-47) and the other was a Sikorsky HO3-S. We had to share our flight deck with a very large cylindrical tank that was to be delivered to Weather station Alert on Elsmere Island in the far North of Canada. We wanted to remove the blades from the 3-S but the Captain of the ship wanted them in place in case there was a requirement to fly the helicopter prior to our arrival in Greenland. We told him that it would only take about 30 minutes to replace the blades in the event of having to fly the aircraft. He said no, so we folded the blades. This exacerbated the high CG by concentrating this weight along the longitudinal centerline. There were no problems until we entered the Davis Straits between Newfoundland, Greenland and Canada. The currents came from three different directions making the seas very turbulent. Our ship was not equipped with bilge keels so we had a monstrous roll rate. The very high CG on the 3-S made it very unstable and it started to work on the oleos. We were in danger of losing the helicopter over the side. Our only means of stabilizing the helicopter was to immobilize the shock struts. I wanted to depressurize them but my maintenance chief had his own ideas. He went down into the machine shop and constructed a set of Dutchman’s’ clamps that incorporated tie down rings. That took about two hours and it left me riding on top of the helicopter trying along with my junior mechanic to remove the blades. This was an impossible task and in the process I became seasick.
We eventually got the clamps on the oleos but in the process we got jammed fingers and almost suffered a capsizing of the helicopter. So what John indicated about the BO-105 might very well be true.
A note of possible interest: The maintenance chief was the co-inventor of pop-out floats. He also helped develop the first hoist used on a helicopter and he developed the friction controls used on Bell model 47 helicopters.
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
I hate to keep harping on my experience aboard Coast Guard icebreakers as it took place 49 years ago but it is still relevant. We had two helicopters aboard the CGC Eastwind one was a Bell HTL-1 (B-47) and the other was a Sikorsky HO3-S. We had to share our flight deck with a very large cylindrical tank that was to be delivered to Weather station Alert on Elsmere Island in the far North of Canada. We wanted to remove the blades from the 3-S but the Captain of the ship wanted them in place in case there was a requirement to fly the helicopter prior to our arrival in Greenland. We told him that it would only take about 30 minutes to replace the blades in the event of having to fly the aircraft. He said no, so we folded the blades. This exacerbated the high CG by concentrating this weight along the longitudinal centerline. There were no problems until we entered the Davis Straits between Newfoundland, Greenland and Canada. The currents came from three different directions making the seas very turbulent. Our ship was not equipped with bilge keels so we had a monstrous roll rate. The very high CG on the 3-S made it very unstable and it started to work on the oleos. We were in danger of losing the helicopter over the side. Our only means of stabilizing the helicopter was to immobilize the shock struts. I wanted to depressurize them but my maintenance chief had his own ideas. He went down into the machine shop and constructed a set of Dutchman’s’ clamps that incorporated tie down rings. That took about two hours and it left me riding on top of the helicopter trying along with my junior mechanic to remove the blades. This was an impossible task and in the process I became seasick.
We eventually got the clamps on the oleos but in the process we got jammed fingers and almost suffered a capsizing of the helicopter. So what John indicated about the BO-105 might very well be true.
A note of possible interest: The maintenance chief was the co-inventor of pop-out floats. He also helped develop the first hoist used on a helicopter and he developed the friction controls used on Bell model 47 helicopters.
[ 17 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
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Mr Zuckerman,
I can assure you, no Bolkow was lost off the back of the Capalonga in the North Sea.
I know you and another gentleman are in the habit of contradicting everything each of you say but don't drag me into this game. Facts are facts. Check UK AAIB records if you don't believe me
Coalface.
I can assure you, no Bolkow was lost off the back of the Capalonga in the North Sea.
I know you and another gentleman are in the habit of contradicting everything each of you say but don't drag me into this game. Facts are facts. Check UK AAIB records if you don't believe me
Coalface.
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To: coalface
I was not implying that a BO-105 was lost overboard as John had indicated. I was however implying that based on my experiences in rough seas it could very well have happened.
I was not implying that a BO-105 was lost overboard as John had indicated. I was however implying that based on my experiences in rough seas it could very well have happened.
Coalface,
Alleged experience notwithstanding, ISTR that sitting on a deck either refuelling, loading bears, baggage, crew changing or whatever, it was SOP to sit at idle. Most crew changes on a Ripple 3 in the RN would take 5 to 15 minutes, and you certainly wouldn't have the speed selects fully forward, especially with pilots getting in and out. Similar ops in the Brent ( hence the Capalonga saga) were at idle whilst the loads were taken off/put on, and/or hot refuels carried out (on the helidecks of the rigs, whilst the platforms were under construction) on a static deck. The only times I recall not selecting idle were very few and far between, certainly the Capalonga episode would have been one which I failed to elaborate. Mea culpa.
As to the Bo105, I didn't say it fell into the water, but that it slid off the back end. I should have been specific and said 'the pilot reefed in the collective and got it airborne with doors still open'. Obviously better clued (after our refusal to return with a 212) he had kept the S/S's forward. Good on him. Yes, I was there, so imagination isn't an issue. The Capalonga had knowledge of our deck landing limits, and would never give a pitch & roll call above them, hence the continuing problems of finding yourself on deck with excessive deck movement.
Alleged experience notwithstanding, ISTR that sitting on a deck either refuelling, loading bears, baggage, crew changing or whatever, it was SOP to sit at idle. Most crew changes on a Ripple 3 in the RN would take 5 to 15 minutes, and you certainly wouldn't have the speed selects fully forward, especially with pilots getting in and out. Similar ops in the Brent ( hence the Capalonga saga) were at idle whilst the loads were taken off/put on, and/or hot refuels carried out (on the helidecks of the rigs, whilst the platforms were under construction) on a static deck. The only times I recall not selecting idle were very few and far between, certainly the Capalonga episode would have been one which I failed to elaborate. Mea culpa.
As to the Bo105, I didn't say it fell into the water, but that it slid off the back end. I should have been specific and said 'the pilot reefed in the collective and got it airborne with doors still open'. Obviously better clued (after our refusal to return with a 212) he had kept the S/S's forward. Good on him. Yes, I was there, so imagination isn't an issue. The Capalonga had knowledge of our deck landing limits, and would never give a pitch & roll call above them, hence the continuing problems of finding yourself on deck with excessive deck movement.
Just a numbered other
John Eac
Sorry, mate, but the speed selects most certainly would be at flight idle. i.e. forward with the rotor rpm in the flight range. Any other setting invites sailing blades and strikes with the fuselage and/or deck. Yes deck. There is a famous picture of a Sea king deck strike during shutdown.
Regarding 'flying the disc', it was not standard RN practice either in the Wessex or Sea King. In the Wessex, it would almost certainly have led to ground (deck?) resonance, and in the Sea King, would have been of no benefit. Keeping the disc horizontal is not a good option in the case of a hasty take off. You are much safer snatching the helo away at 90eg from the deck. Any other deparure would invite dynamic rollover.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Arkroyal ]
Sorry, mate, but the speed selects most certainly would be at flight idle. i.e. forward with the rotor rpm in the flight range. Any other setting invites sailing blades and strikes with the fuselage and/or deck. Yes deck. There is a famous picture of a Sea king deck strike during shutdown.
Regarding 'flying the disc', it was not standard RN practice either in the Wessex or Sea King. In the Wessex, it would almost certainly have led to ground (deck?) resonance, and in the Sea King, would have been of no benefit. Keeping the disc horizontal is not a good option in the case of a hasty take off. You are much safer snatching the helo away at 90eg from the deck. Any other deparure would invite dynamic rollover.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Arkroyal ]
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Here's one for the aeronautics people. What would happen if you left the auto-pilot in on a pitching and rolling deck?
I seem to remember it trys to fly the disc for you; but not that quick.
I seem to remember it trys to fly the disc for you; but not that quick.
Ark,
Thanks for the update, I guess old timers must be setting in
I am that used to rolling back to ground idle these days, I envisaged that it was the way we did it all those years ago. A quick browse through the old flip cards certainly reinforces your comment. Having been corrected on that, anyone recall SOP's for the rig shuttles in the Brent in the 70's, did we or didn't we roll back to idle during refuels, crew changes, etc., or was it a 'pilot option'? Genuine question, if I'm wrong I'll admit it!!
I recall a picture we had of a Sea King on 1 Spot (Eagle) with the blade sailing such that the tip was about 3ft off the deck, would that have been the photo that you recall? I'd be interested in a copy if anyone has access to it.
Thanks for the update, I guess old timers must be setting in
I am that used to rolling back to ground idle these days, I envisaged that it was the way we did it all those years ago. A quick browse through the old flip cards certainly reinforces your comment. Having been corrected on that, anyone recall SOP's for the rig shuttles in the Brent in the 70's, did we or didn't we roll back to idle during refuels, crew changes, etc., or was it a 'pilot option'? Genuine question, if I'm wrong I'll admit it!!I recall a picture we had of a Sea King on 1 Spot (Eagle) with the blade sailing such that the tip was about 3ft off the deck, would that have been the photo that you recall? I'd be interested in a copy if anyone has access to it.
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To: disstings
The HSS-1 (Navy version of S-58) was equipped with an Automatic Stabilization System, which had directional control, hover altitude control (barometric reference) Sonar hover hold (hydrostatic reference to depth of the sonar ball under the water)and attitude hold. After a few major incidents the pilots were told not to engage the ASE until they were airborne. They had several problems when the pilots had the system engaged and the ship changed course. The whole back end spun around trying to maintain heading.
A pitching an rolling deck would result in the ASE flying the disc as you described in your post.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
The HSS-1 (Navy version of S-58) was equipped with an Automatic Stabilization System, which had directional control, hover altitude control (barometric reference) Sonar hover hold (hydrostatic reference to depth of the sonar ball under the water)and attitude hold. After a few major incidents the pilots were told not to engage the ASE until they were airborne. They had several problems when the pilots had the system engaged and the ship changed course. The whole back end spun around trying to maintain heading.
A pitching an rolling deck would result in the ASE flying the disc as you described in your post.
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
[ 21 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
Just a numbered other
John,
Yep, me too with the failing memory! The picture I'm referring to was in 'Flight Deck' I think and actually showed a blade strike 1 o/clock. The composite blades made this quite possible.
Lu
As you know, the Wessex was just an S58 with turbines. It had a thing called the Mk 19 autopilot! (hate to see what marks 1 to 18 were capable of!) This was engaged just before launch, and disengaged immediately after touchdown on deck. Landings were often made exciting by ground resonance (exasserbated by the ASE) requiring an immediate lift off, often into the dark with no stab.
In 1987, a crab chinook made the mistake of sitting on the deck of my namesake with the autopilot engaged. The ship was moving around a fair bit in roughers. So much so that one end of the wokka got airborne. Crab mate pulled power, and snapping the lashings, got airborne with a hapless sailor clinging on. They kidnapped the poor chap and took him to Aldergrove.
So, rambling dit over, its never a good idea to leave autopilot engaged on deck, or to fly the disc, although I stand to be corrected when it comes to the Puma family. Their incredibly high CofG might make a different technique valid?
Yep, me too with the failing memory! The picture I'm referring to was in 'Flight Deck' I think and actually showed a blade strike 1 o/clock. The composite blades made this quite possible.
Lu
As you know, the Wessex was just an S58 with turbines. It had a thing called the Mk 19 autopilot! (hate to see what marks 1 to 18 were capable of!) This was engaged just before launch, and disengaged immediately after touchdown on deck. Landings were often made exciting by ground resonance (exasserbated by the ASE) requiring an immediate lift off, often into the dark with no stab.
In 1987, a crab chinook made the mistake of sitting on the deck of my namesake with the autopilot engaged. The ship was moving around a fair bit in roughers. So much so that one end of the wokka got airborne. Crab mate pulled power, and snapping the lashings, got airborne with a hapless sailor clinging on. They kidnapped the poor chap and took him to Aldergrove.
So, rambling dit over, its never a good idea to leave autopilot engaged on deck, or to fly the disc, although I stand to be corrected when it comes to the Puma family. Their incredibly high CofG might make a different technique valid?
Ah, the dear old WxIII ASE. IIRC (and I'll be VERY careful...) the 706NAS course lasted about 12 weeks, of which 6 weeks were GFT on the Wx HAS1, then the next 6-8 weeks were on the HAS3. Needless to say, the mechanical wipers on the III's ASE used to corrode between ASW sections of the course, so you were almost guaranteed a runaway on transition, usually at night
It was still a vast improvement on the Wx1, and as for the Whirlwind.......
It was still a vast improvement on the Wx1, and as for the Whirlwind.......
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Speechless Two, those were wonderful times. Don't you remember having the option. The lovely 61 could shut down one engine and then you apply the rotor brake to stop the rotors whilst the other engine kept running.
Rig crews on the heli-deck went to work with no pressure, and you had the knowledge that releasing the rotor brake brought back all those hydraulic and gearbox systems to get you home.
One day the'll build a helicopter like that again.
Rig crews on the heli-deck went to work with no pressure, and you had the knowledge that releasing the rotor brake brought back all those hydraulic and gearbox systems to get you home.
One day the'll build a helicopter like that again.
Disting,
Ferried a 61 through Kalgoorlie many years ago, and wanted a hot refuel prior to parking for overnight. Refueller couldn't accept the proposal of keeping one engine going with the rotors stopped, but was more than happy for us to have the APU running
Ferried a 61 through Kalgoorlie many years ago, and wanted a hot refuel prior to parking for overnight. Refueller couldn't accept the proposal of keeping one engine going with the rotors stopped, but was more than happy for us to have the APU running
Speechless Two,
No relation to Speechless One, of 826 fame? Winching in the Whirlwind, trying to keep the Nr up, but how about dragging the Sproule net, and keeping the back wheels out of the water. With only 2 PoB!!!
Rumour was that you could walk across the bottom of Portland Harbour on the ditched Whirlwind airframes
No relation to Speechless One, of 826 fame? Winching in the Whirlwind, trying to keep the Nr up, but how about dragging the Sproule net, and keeping the back wheels out of the water. With only 2 PoB!!!
Rumour was that you could walk across the bottom of Portland Harbour on the ditched Whirlwind airframes
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I operated Offshore Super Pumas in the Timor Sea for some years.Getting back to the thread on speed selects at idle whilst on the deck, despite not being a North Sea driver, I can not see that this would be an option as the alternators all drop off line, as such we operated them at flight idle, i.e. lever down and yellow handles forward.
Providing you took the ship roll in pitch the acft could handle the movement of the deck. However rolling limit was +/- 1.5 degrees, which didn't give you much to play with if you took the roll option.
Providing you took the ship roll in pitch the acft could handle the movement of the deck. However rolling limit was +/- 1.5 degrees, which didn't give you much to play with if you took the roll option.
A scan of the stuff provided at the Small Helicopter Safety Seminar shows 2 accidents in the space of 6 months where helicopters took people out on a deck - an S76 and a Dauphin.
Unfortunately the accident reports are no longer available from the AAIB web site.
Unfortunately the accident reports are no longer available from the AAIB web site.
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Problemchild:
If any of the following information is incorrect, please correct me anyone, this has all be received through rumour from ABZ.
As far as the airframe is concerned all I know is that it was an AS332L
Rumour has it that the co-pilot has a very severely broken ankle/shin. Caused by a fragment of main rotor blade. Skin and muscle grafts (is that how you spell it?), pins through and all sorts!!
There was thought that he may lose his foot, but apparently they have managed to save it.
As for the pilot we believe he is off work with shock. (Not surprising really!)
I for one hope that they both make a good recovery soon.
If any of the following information is incorrect, please correct me anyone, this has all be received through rumour from ABZ.
As far as the airframe is concerned all I know is that it was an AS332L
Rumour has it that the co-pilot has a very severely broken ankle/shin. Caused by a fragment of main rotor blade. Skin and muscle grafts (is that how you spell it?), pins through and all sorts!!
There was thought that he may lose his foot, but apparently they have managed to save it.
As for the pilot we believe he is off work with shock. (Not surprising really!)
I for one hope that they both make a good recovery soon.
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Pprune is just wonderful, if only for the nostalgia trip. Last known, Speechless One was flying out of Gatwick, initially with Dan Air then, I hope with BA. Where is he now? And as for John Eacott - are you still wearing that wonderful Akubra? Hope 'The Helicopter Company' is still going well.
Back to the main point. Pumas and Super Pumas have had quite a history of falling over, at Aldergrove many years back and, almost as many years ago, when parked offshore overnight (was it the Forties field?) That one I seem to remember was when the wind got up to 80+ knots. Another blown over onshore, after it had been parked as close as possible to the hangar doors, comes to mind again in extreme winds.
The report of this occurrence, with feelings of relief that the pilot is recovering from shock and the co-pilot more seriously but hopefully will return to full flying fitness, talks only of moderate (for the North Sea) winds of 35 kts and the aircraft secured to the deck with lashings. Perhaps ship movement was a factor but it is not made clear if the aircraft had shut down and was restarted. If so and as the French never did fit a proper rotor brake to any of their heli's, the well known wind-up wobble combined with ship movement would be all it takes. You can't beat a Sikorsky rotor brake that let's you start both engines before engaging, with a rapid wind-up when needed.
To add two-pen'orth to the Auto Pilot question, RN training has always made good sense to me - disengage on landing. I seem to recall the odd Wessex tail wheel skidding across the deck as the ship turned after land-on and the heading hold worked very hard to do its job!! Should be SOP for all moving decks.
The technique taught for sloping ground, that the cyclic should be centred after landing, I believe equally applies to moving decks. With the collective at Flat Pitch and the deck moving within cleared limits, there is absolutely no need to try to 'Fly The Disc'.
The Offshore weather and deck movement reports have always required a good pinch of salt, particularly on the RO's change-over day. If the deck movement is - or may become - out of limits then the only way to overcome the intense commercial pressure is to employ those good CRM lessons, provided at great cost by our employers, to say "Diverting" or "I go NOW".
Glad I've been there and done that.
Back to the main point. Pumas and Super Pumas have had quite a history of falling over, at Aldergrove many years back and, almost as many years ago, when parked offshore overnight (was it the Forties field?) That one I seem to remember was when the wind got up to 80+ knots. Another blown over onshore, after it had been parked as close as possible to the hangar doors, comes to mind again in extreme winds.
The report of this occurrence, with feelings of relief that the pilot is recovering from shock and the co-pilot more seriously but hopefully will return to full flying fitness, talks only of moderate (for the North Sea) winds of 35 kts and the aircraft secured to the deck with lashings. Perhaps ship movement was a factor but it is not made clear if the aircraft had shut down and was restarted. If so and as the French never did fit a proper rotor brake to any of their heli's, the well known wind-up wobble combined with ship movement would be all it takes. You can't beat a Sikorsky rotor brake that let's you start both engines before engaging, with a rapid wind-up when needed.
To add two-pen'orth to the Auto Pilot question, RN training has always made good sense to me - disengage on landing. I seem to recall the odd Wessex tail wheel skidding across the deck as the ship turned after land-on and the heading hold worked very hard to do its job!! Should be SOP for all moving decks.
The technique taught for sloping ground, that the cyclic should be centred after landing, I believe equally applies to moving decks. With the collective at Flat Pitch and the deck moving within cleared limits, there is absolutely no need to try to 'Fly The Disc'.
The Offshore weather and deck movement reports have always required a good pinch of salt, particularly on the RO's change-over day. If the deck movement is - or may become - out of limits then the only way to overcome the intense commercial pressure is to employ those good CRM lessons, provided at great cost by our employers, to say "Diverting" or "I go NOW".
Glad I've been there and done that.
I'm surprised no-one has posted an update as to what happened. Here's my understanding about what has been found so far:
The vessel is a drill ship that has a helideck very high above the water line. It's position is maintained on station by a simplex computer feeding info to various thrusters on the vessel.
While the aircraft was on deck the positioning computer failed and the vessel heading and position started to wander. Once the vessel crew realised what had happened the vessel had drifted about 40 degrees from it's original heading i.e. the aircraft is now 40 degrees out of wind.
In order to get the vessel back on course/position full thrusters opposing the drift were applied. The effect of this force, coupled with the very high helideck resulted in a large roll on the helideck. This, coupled with a 35kt wind "under" the disk caused the aircraft to roll over.
Here's hoping for a full recovery by the P2.
Regards
Variable Load
The vessel is a drill ship that has a helideck very high above the water line. It's position is maintained on station by a simplex computer feeding info to various thrusters on the vessel.
While the aircraft was on deck the positioning computer failed and the vessel heading and position started to wander. Once the vessel crew realised what had happened the vessel had drifted about 40 degrees from it's original heading i.e. the aircraft is now 40 degrees out of wind.
In order to get the vessel back on course/position full thrusters opposing the drift were applied. The effect of this force, coupled with the very high helideck resulted in a large roll on the helideck. This, coupled with a 35kt wind "under" the disk caused the aircraft to roll over.
Here's hoping for a full recovery by the P2.
Regards
Variable Load
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A couple more comments from downunder. Regarding the roll over, as any good test pilot will explain at length, (Well he did to me!!!!!) it's not just roll limits for ship or slope limits for a/c but particularly rate of movement that is important as all this comes together producing moments which may easily roll a helo. Some ships have been modified to reduce their rate but increaseing the amount of roll to allow helo ops to be possible. Weight may not be a good thing even low down in the a/c the limits for the Sea King reduce drasticly with increased weight for some ships (2 deg roll!!) but on other ships its much greater. Deck surface can also play its part, if the a/c slips the rolling moment will be somewhat negated. (Not neccessarily a good feeling as the crew on Hermes in '82 found as the SK tail wheel hopped over the deck edge and out along the boat gantry!!)
As to blade sailing there is also a phot of a Sea king on 1 spot on a CVS with one blade folded up and over the rotor head due to bad winds around the ramp during shutdown.
Anyway I'll keep the stab out and the cyclic still on deck as I've no wish to argue with rotor blades as I crew change at 02dubs!!
As to blade sailing there is also a phot of a Sea king on 1 spot on a CVS with one blade folded up and over the rotor head due to bad winds around the ramp during shutdown.
Anyway I'll keep the stab out and the cyclic still on deck as I've no wish to argue with rotor blades as I crew change at 02dubs!!
