Icing + other wx nasties
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Icing + other wx nasties
Following on from the TR drive failure thread and the subsequent chat regarding icing.
Tech: Thanks for the wiper tip. I will be sure to look for it.
Incidently, last night we had an interesting experience while passing into a streamer off Lake Huron. We had been in light snow and had extinguished most external lighting to prevent the reflection, when the radios, starting with the Tactical FM through to both comms, started to squeal and distort. After turning the radios completely down and isolating the comms to ICS, we observed static (electrical) discharges off the main rotor.
The other pilot mentioned that he had only seen similar sparking once before while flying throught an abrasive cloud (dust, iron sand??). It apparently was due to the snow as the radios cleared as soon as we exited the snow stream.
Sound like a form of 'St Elmos Fire' guys or something else?
Regarding the radio distortion is it indicative of poor aircraft earthing?
CB
Tech: Thanks for the wiper tip. I will be sure to look for it.
Incidently, last night we had an interesting experience while passing into a streamer off Lake Huron. We had been in light snow and had extinguished most external lighting to prevent the reflection, when the radios, starting with the Tactical FM through to both comms, started to squeal and distort. After turning the radios completely down and isolating the comms to ICS, we observed static (electrical) discharges off the main rotor.
The other pilot mentioned that he had only seen similar sparking once before while flying throught an abrasive cloud (dust, iron sand??). It apparently was due to the snow as the radios cleared as soon as we exited the snow stream.
Sound like a form of 'St Elmos Fire' guys or something else?
Regarding the radio distortion is it indicative of poor aircraft earthing?
CB
Sounds like a textbook description of precipitation static ( if I remember my Met from last year ).
I'm nowhere near my textbooks but a quick search on Google returned this page.
I'm nowhere near my textbooks but a quick search on Google returned this page.
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To stop that , you need a solid brass or copper spike driven at least 30inches into the ground , then a long length of 5mm copper cable bolted firmly to the Heli Chassis,and to the spike, that should do the job. 
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The St. Elmo's Fire effect is due to the large electrical charge build-up in dry snow, which is like rubbing the aircraft in cat's fur, but not as much fun. The normal charge build-up in air is not enough to cause a light show, but the snow pumps up the charge due to the mechanical snow contact, kind of like a Van De Graff generator. In normal conditions, the charge can kick you over (try grabbing an ungrounded hoist hook!) To show light, I believe the voltage must be in the thousands (with very little actual charge, of course).
The radios get noisy then silent as the charge blocks the signal out, since the antennae are enclosed in the charged surface of the charged air, much like a conducting enclosure.
I have had this effect in airplanes and helos, the most impressive was in a twin Piper, where my date thought I had arranged the multi-colored light show that danced on the wings just for her! Thanks, Sir Issac, you made me look good.
The sparks in sand and dust are a different phoenomina, I think. There the sand crystals actually glow when struck, making a pretty trail of sparks. With goggles, the show is wonderful! The crystal effect can be seen if you get fully dark adapted, then hit a sugar cube with a hammer (of course, for a former Cobra pilot, hitting ANYTHING with a hammer is fun sport!) The crystal reshuffles its electrons when disturbed and causes the electro-luminescence. Here I will defer to any EE who can translate my drivel into physics.
The radios get noisy then silent as the charge blocks the signal out, since the antennae are enclosed in the charged surface of the charged air, much like a conducting enclosure.
I have had this effect in airplanes and helos, the most impressive was in a twin Piper, where my date thought I had arranged the multi-colored light show that danced on the wings just for her! Thanks, Sir Issac, you made me look good.
The sparks in sand and dust are a different phoenomina, I think. There the sand crystals actually glow when struck, making a pretty trail of sparks. With goggles, the show is wonderful! The crystal effect can be seen if you get fully dark adapted, then hit a sugar cube with a hammer (of course, for a former Cobra pilot, hitting ANYTHING with a hammer is fun sport!) The crystal reshuffles its electrons when disturbed and causes the electro-luminescence. Here I will defer to any EE who can translate my drivel into physics.
Iconoclast
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As the blade rotate through the air they build up a static charge. If the blades are adequately bonded to the rotorhead the charge will pass through the transmission and the entire fuselage will be at the same potential as the rotor system. Nick stated that if the helicopter is not grounded during lifting operations the cargo handler could be knocked on his ass. This requires that they use some type of grounding wand to dissipate the charge to earth. A similar problem exists when making a hoist pickup over water. The hoist operator will drag the cable through the water to ground the helicopter otherwise a person in the water who is most likely weak or injured could be knocked unconcious. Many helicopters have a cable device attached to the landing gear to allow drainage of the charge before the wheels touch the ground. If the charge can’t be drained from the rotor system it will discharge from the blade tips and form a halo around the helicopter. This is the military pilots' nightmare as all the enemy has to do at night is to fire anywhere inside of the halo and he will hit the helicopter.
Another problem with helicopters that do not have any or adequate bonding of the blades to the rotor head and then to the trannie is the radios, the standby compasses and in some cases the VOR will malfunction. We discovered this on the AH1-Js and the Bell 214s in Iran. The rotor system teeter bearing was non-conducting elastomeric and the charge could not drain off the head. This magnetized the rotor shaft and all of the steel parts on the rotorhead. The level of magnetization was well in excess of the allowable residual after a Magnaflux inspection of the shaft. This magnetization can also cause damage to the transmission gears and bearings due to spark erosion. This reduces the operational reliability of the transmission.
The Israelis took advantage of this static buildup and developed a patented lighting system that was installed in the blades of their Cobras. The lights were on the top of the blades and allowed pilots to see each other during night operations.
Another problem with helicopters that do not have any or adequate bonding of the blades to the rotor head and then to the trannie is the radios, the standby compasses and in some cases the VOR will malfunction. We discovered this on the AH1-Js and the Bell 214s in Iran. The rotor system teeter bearing was non-conducting elastomeric and the charge could not drain off the head. This magnetized the rotor shaft and all of the steel parts on the rotorhead. The level of magnetization was well in excess of the allowable residual after a Magnaflux inspection of the shaft. This magnetization can also cause damage to the transmission gears and bearings due to spark erosion. This reduces the operational reliability of the transmission.
The Israelis took advantage of this static buildup and developed a patented lighting system that was installed in the blades of their Cobras. The lights were on the top of the blades and allowed pilots to see each other during night operations.
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I was watching CNN and they showed some night shots of a CH-47 and a CH-53 both of which were generating a halo around the blade tips. So much for stealthy operations.
Lu,
I think those halo's you saw are only IR visible.
CNN must have been using their new Sony cam-corders, or their Costco IR scopes!
http://www.iai.co.il/dows/dows/Serve...h/1.103.6.html
I think those halo's you saw are only IR visible.
CNN must have been using their new Sony cam-corders, or their Costco IR scopes!
http://www.iai.co.il/dows/dows/Serve...h/1.103.6.html
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To: Cyclic Hotline
The CNN bit was taken with some type if IR adapter or night vision type lens however these were sparks or flashes of light. When I worked for Bell in Iran because of the low humidity most of the helicopters we had in our fleet (900) could be seen with the halo when flying at night and this was with the naked eye. As I indicated the AH1-Js and 214s had no means of dissipating the static charge and they had a very bright halo when flying at night.
The light device shown in the web page looks to be an adaptation of the Israeli system. I’m sure the article in Aviation Leak and Space Technology indicated their lights were powered by static charge. I may be wrong and this is in fact the Israeli system.
The CNN bit was taken with some type if IR adapter or night vision type lens however these were sparks or flashes of light. When I worked for Bell in Iran because of the low humidity most of the helicopters we had in our fleet (900) could be seen with the halo when flying at night and this was with the naked eye. As I indicated the AH1-Js and 214s had no means of dissipating the static charge and they had a very bright halo when flying at night.
The light device shown in the web page looks to be an adaptation of the Israeli system. I’m sure the article in Aviation Leak and Space Technology indicated their lights were powered by static charge. I may be wrong and this is in fact the Israeli system.
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Lu,
That website is the Israeli Aircraft Industry site, and the tip lights have nothing to do with static electricity.
"It is battery operated with a limit of 60 flight hours at night.
The batteries can be replaced easily in the field." says the web site.
The tip light look identical to those Sikorsky provides on the tips of H-53 blades.
In hundreds of hours of night combat, I have NEVER seen a helicopter glow with a halo of any kind seen by naked eye.
That website is the Israeli Aircraft Industry site, and the tip lights have nothing to do with static electricity.
"It is battery operated with a limit of 60 flight hours at night.
The batteries can be replaced easily in the field." says the web site.
The tip light look identical to those Sikorsky provides on the tips of H-53 blades.
In hundreds of hours of night combat, I have NEVER seen a helicopter glow with a halo of any kind seen by naked eye.
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To: Nick lappos
As I had indicated I read the information I referred to in Av Leak many years ago. There was no indication in the article regarding power source. I assumed and I was wrong. At least I got the Israeli part right. Regarding your night combat flights I assume that they took place in Viet Nam where they have a high level of humidity. In Iran it was bone dry and very conducive to the generation of static electricity. I had several night flights in the 214 and it glowed in the dark. Even though I told Bell engineering about the static build-up on the 214 and the J model I do not believe they ever did anything about it and if they didn’t the masts are still magnetized and the standby compasses and the VORs don’t work right.
Regarding the statement in the advert that the ground troops (read enemy) can't see the helicopter at night. This is true only if the helicopter is flying in line with the horizon. As soon as it starts to maneuver and the top of the disc is exposed the pilot is a sitting duck.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
As I had indicated I read the information I referred to in Av Leak many years ago. There was no indication in the article regarding power source. I assumed and I was wrong. At least I got the Israeli part right. Regarding your night combat flights I assume that they took place in Viet Nam where they have a high level of humidity. In Iran it was bone dry and very conducive to the generation of static electricity. I had several night flights in the 214 and it glowed in the dark. Even though I told Bell engineering about the static build-up on the 214 and the J model I do not believe they ever did anything about it and if they didn’t the masts are still magnetized and the standby compasses and the VORs don’t work right.
Regarding the statement in the advert that the ground troops (read enemy) can't see the helicopter at night. This is true only if the helicopter is flying in line with the horizon. As soon as it starts to maneuver and the top of the disc is exposed the pilot is a sitting duck.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
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Lu,
This is the samo-samo with you. The post ABOVE yours had all the details about the tip lights, including the power source (batteries) , but you chose to ignore the facts as presented, and continue your crackpot theory anyway. You were quote sure endquote that they were static powered. It is like that with everything you post, in that you do not learn from anyone else, you do not understand what else is written, and you are incapable of changing your ideas or opinions.
Now we hear that in humid Vietnam helicopters don't glow at night but in the dry desert of Iran they do. I have tons of desert experience, including lots of time in Saudi and Jordan, where it must be humid as hell, cause those helos don't glow there either.
How about you email the cousin of a friend of guy who knows an instructor and ask him if helos glow in the dark, and we will all wait for that experiment, too.
The only sitting duck I see signs his posts as the Cat.
This is the samo-samo with you. The post ABOVE yours had all the details about the tip lights, including the power source (batteries) , but you chose to ignore the facts as presented, and continue your crackpot theory anyway. You were quote sure endquote that they were static powered. It is like that with everything you post, in that you do not learn from anyone else, you do not understand what else is written, and you are incapable of changing your ideas or opinions.
Now we hear that in humid Vietnam helicopters don't glow at night but in the dry desert of Iran they do. I have tons of desert experience, including lots of time in Saudi and Jordan, where it must be humid as hell, cause those helos don't glow there either.
How about you email the cousin of a friend of guy who knows an instructor and ask him if helos glow in the dark, and we will all wait for that experiment, too.
The only sitting duck I see signs his posts as the Cat.
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To: Nick Lappos
“This is the samo-samo with you. The post ABOVE yours had all the details about the tip lights, including the power source (batteries) , but you chose to ignore the facts as presented, and continue your crackpot theory anyway. You were quote sure endquote that they were static powered. It is like that with everything you post, in that you do not learn from anyone else, you do not understand what else is written, and you are incapable of changing your ideas or opinions”.
First of all, that post came in while I was preparing mine. I made the comment about the lights being powered by static electricity based on an article that appeared in Aviation Leak over ten years ago. That article indicated that the Israelis had come up with the idea. The article did not indicate that the light source was a light bulb of some type or did it indicate a source of power. I assumed that the light was some type of luminescent device that would glow in the presence of static electricity. I could not visualize opening up the blade and running wires down to the tip to power these lights. I never considered them making a major modification to the blade tip to incorporate the light source and its’ batteries. I did log onto the website and read the technical material and looked at the pictures. I did not pay attention to the source of the information and when you mentioned that it was an Israeli website I returned to it and realized you were correct.
One thing that I did do and most likely you did not was to contact the company. Here is my message to them and their reply:
Dear Mr. Traeger
I have a question about the battery powered tip lights for helicopters. On your website they are listed as a new product but I remember seeing an article in Aviation Week many years ago about the development of a system of this type and it was used on Israeli helicopters. The article did not reference a power source for the lights and I assumed that they were powered by the static charge on the blade surface. Can you shed any light on this?
Here is his reply:
Dear Mr. Zuckerman
Thank you for your interest in our new product -- the Blade Tip Light
The Tip Light is powered by a Lithium battery having a 60 hour operating life. The Tip Light has 2 switches: a centrifugal switch and an optical switch -- so that the Tip Lights only works while the blades are rotating and at night. The 60 hour operating time is usually enough for a year's operation in most air forces. Also there is a tester to make sure that the batteries work.
We have installed these Tip Lights on many of the Israel Air Force's helicopters -- and soon all of the IAF's helicopters will have them installed. There is no other operating system in the IAF.
I hope that this answers your questions. If you need any further information please contact me.
Yitzchak D. Traeger
Director of Marketing & Business Development
MATA Division, Military Aircraft Group, IAI
Atarot Industrial Park, POB 27160
Jerusalem, Israel 91271
Tel: 972-2-584 1350
Fax: 972-2-584-1319
Mobile: 972-53-579 130
Mr. Traeger did not respond to my question regarding when the invention was made (The web page indicates that it is new but I first heard of it over ten years ago). He did not respond to my question about static electricity power for the original invention other that to say it was powered by a lithium battery. So, I can only assume that a battery always powered it and my original assumption was wrong.
Now that that is explained, I would like your comment about the helicopter revealing itself during maneuvering. Also, what are your comments regarding magnetization of the mast due to a large charge on the rotor that can't get to the fuselage?
“Now we hear that in humid Vietnam helicopters don't glow at night but in the dry desert of Iran they do. I
have tons of desert experience, including lots of time in Saudi and Jordan, where it must be humid as hell, cause those helos don't glow there either”
Response:
Did you really mean to say that in your tour in Saudi and Jordan it was humid as hell and those helos in those areas don’t glow in the dark. If that is what you really meant to say then you are in agreement with me relative to the helicopters in Viet Nam not glowing for the same reason. High humidity no glow. Low humidity glow.
Something that you must come to understand is that individuals in this world are a composite of their respective life experiences. Here is an example. Back in the mid 60s I was a Senior Project Engineer working for Douglas MSSD and based at NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. While there I became involved in an investigation into why they almost lost a Saturn 2 space booster. The investigation was very involved but with the assistance of a consultant from The South West Research Center in San Antonio the problem was solved. Now, that was one of my many life experiences and it is most likely that it is not one of yours. Does the fact that you have never experienced this particular event make it wrong in your eyes? Or, the fact that in your many years in association with helicopters without seeing the halo effect prove that it never happens. I would suggest that you go to the first post on this thread and read it and several that follows it. The posters experience is the same as mine although the conditions were different.
On a personal note it seems that your spring-loaded to the attack position and that you come on entirely too strong. If you are the same with your peers and your subordinates I pity them if they come up with a hare brained idea that may or may not work or, if they make a mistake. Tune in to the Oprah show on Tuesday and listen to Dr. Phil.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
“This is the samo-samo with you. The post ABOVE yours had all the details about the tip lights, including the power source (batteries) , but you chose to ignore the facts as presented, and continue your crackpot theory anyway. You were quote sure endquote that they were static powered. It is like that with everything you post, in that you do not learn from anyone else, you do not understand what else is written, and you are incapable of changing your ideas or opinions”.
First of all, that post came in while I was preparing mine. I made the comment about the lights being powered by static electricity based on an article that appeared in Aviation Leak over ten years ago. That article indicated that the Israelis had come up with the idea. The article did not indicate that the light source was a light bulb of some type or did it indicate a source of power. I assumed that the light was some type of luminescent device that would glow in the presence of static electricity. I could not visualize opening up the blade and running wires down to the tip to power these lights. I never considered them making a major modification to the blade tip to incorporate the light source and its’ batteries. I did log onto the website and read the technical material and looked at the pictures. I did not pay attention to the source of the information and when you mentioned that it was an Israeli website I returned to it and realized you were correct.
One thing that I did do and most likely you did not was to contact the company. Here is my message to them and their reply:
Dear Mr. Traeger
I have a question about the battery powered tip lights for helicopters. On your website they are listed as a new product but I remember seeing an article in Aviation Week many years ago about the development of a system of this type and it was used on Israeli helicopters. The article did not reference a power source for the lights and I assumed that they were powered by the static charge on the blade surface. Can you shed any light on this?
Here is his reply:
Dear Mr. Zuckerman
Thank you for your interest in our new product -- the Blade Tip Light
The Tip Light is powered by a Lithium battery having a 60 hour operating life. The Tip Light has 2 switches: a centrifugal switch and an optical switch -- so that the Tip Lights only works while the blades are rotating and at night. The 60 hour operating time is usually enough for a year's operation in most air forces. Also there is a tester to make sure that the batteries work.
We have installed these Tip Lights on many of the Israel Air Force's helicopters -- and soon all of the IAF's helicopters will have them installed. There is no other operating system in the IAF.
I hope that this answers your questions. If you need any further information please contact me.
Yitzchak D. Traeger
Director of Marketing & Business Development
MATA Division, Military Aircraft Group, IAI
Atarot Industrial Park, POB 27160
Jerusalem, Israel 91271
Tel: 972-2-584 1350
Fax: 972-2-584-1319
Mobile: 972-53-579 130
Mr. Traeger did not respond to my question regarding when the invention was made (The web page indicates that it is new but I first heard of it over ten years ago). He did not respond to my question about static electricity power for the original invention other that to say it was powered by a lithium battery. So, I can only assume that a battery always powered it and my original assumption was wrong.
Now that that is explained, I would like your comment about the helicopter revealing itself during maneuvering. Also, what are your comments regarding magnetization of the mast due to a large charge on the rotor that can't get to the fuselage?
“Now we hear that in humid Vietnam helicopters don't glow at night but in the dry desert of Iran they do. I
have tons of desert experience, including lots of time in Saudi and Jordan, where it must be humid as hell, cause those helos don't glow there either”
Response:
Did you really mean to say that in your tour in Saudi and Jordan it was humid as hell and those helos in those areas don’t glow in the dark. If that is what you really meant to say then you are in agreement with me relative to the helicopters in Viet Nam not glowing for the same reason. High humidity no glow. Low humidity glow.
Something that you must come to understand is that individuals in this world are a composite of their respective life experiences. Here is an example. Back in the mid 60s I was a Senior Project Engineer working for Douglas MSSD and based at NASA Marshall Space Flight Center. While there I became involved in an investigation into why they almost lost a Saturn 2 space booster. The investigation was very involved but with the assistance of a consultant from The South West Research Center in San Antonio the problem was solved. Now, that was one of my many life experiences and it is most likely that it is not one of yours. Does the fact that you have never experienced this particular event make it wrong in your eyes? Or, the fact that in your many years in association with helicopters without seeing the halo effect prove that it never happens. I would suggest that you go to the first post on this thread and read it and several that follows it. The posters experience is the same as mine although the conditions were different.
On a personal note it seems that your spring-loaded to the attack position and that you come on entirely too strong. If you are the same with your peers and your subordinates I pity them if they come up with a hare brained idea that may or may not work or, if they make a mistake. Tune in to the Oprah show on Tuesday and listen to Dr. Phil.
[ 07 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
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Lu said:
On a personal note it seems that your spring-loaded to the attack position and that you come on entirely too strong. If you are the same with your peers and your subordinates I pity them if they come up with a hare brained idea that may or may not work or, if they make a mistake.
Nick sez:
Lu, it is not a "mistake" to obstinately continue your pedantic attacks, and it is not a "mistake" to assert that helicopters glow in the dark (!!!!) It is the height of foolishness.
You are off the wall and basically a crackpot, with ideas and interpretations that are just short of bizarre. You failed to see the sarcasm in my statement that in the hundreds of hours in desert countries there must have been too much humidity.
Exactly where do you get off launching such pronouncements, and how do you expect to retain a shred of credibility when you take off that way? I also KNOW that once you write something, it is carved in stone, and only someone's cousin's brother's instructor who once told you that absurdity is to blame.
If I had a subordinate who spoke as you do, dug into absurd points as you do, and who simply could not learn, as you can't - I'd fire him without a second thought.
On a personal note it seems that your spring-loaded to the attack position and that you come on entirely too strong. If you are the same with your peers and your subordinates I pity them if they come up with a hare brained idea that may or may not work or, if they make a mistake.
Nick sez:
Lu, it is not a "mistake" to obstinately continue your pedantic attacks, and it is not a "mistake" to assert that helicopters glow in the dark (!!!!) It is the height of foolishness.
You are off the wall and basically a crackpot, with ideas and interpretations that are just short of bizarre. You failed to see the sarcasm in my statement that in the hundreds of hours in desert countries there must have been too much humidity.
Exactly where do you get off launching such pronouncements, and how do you expect to retain a shred of credibility when you take off that way? I also KNOW that once you write something, it is carved in stone, and only someone's cousin's brother's instructor who once told you that absurdity is to blame.
If I had a subordinate who spoke as you do, dug into absurd points as you do, and who simply could not learn, as you can't - I'd fire him without a second thought.
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To: Nick Lappos
“If I had a subordinate who spoke as you do, dug into absurd points as you do, and who simply could not learn, as you can't - I'd fire him without a second thought”.
Nick, I am almost 71 years old and I have been gainfully employed since 1956 and most likely, I make more money than you do. What you think of me as a person makes absolutely no difference to me. As I had indicated previously you attack me personally stating that my ideas are pure drivel and do not warrant any consideration yet when I ask you to respond to certain technical matters you step up the attack mode and do not reply.
Every thing in your above post is pure vitriol and as I stated before you should watch Dr. Phil. You have to learn to maintain an even disposition when you come on these threads no matter how much you disagree with what I say or what some other person might say. If you read the first post on this thread by Steve76, he stated that he experienced a glowing or sparking phenomenon while flying through a snowstorm. He also indicated that his communication system went haywire. That is exactly what I stated about our 214s in Iran. If his helicopter rotor system can glow or spark, why can’t mine? Regarding humidity in Saudi it can be almost 100% near the Gulf.
In country it can be less than 5%. That coupled with sand and dust will cause spark discharge from the rotor system. Especially on a helicopter such as the late model Cobras and other Bells with an elastomeric teeter bearing. This also holds true on helicopters that do not have an adequate bonding system between the blades, the head and on to the transmission. I understand that on newer helicopter designs they incorporate static wicks on the blade to dissipate the static charge. Quite possibly under the right conditions this discharge will be visible.
Would you believe that on the A-310 and the A-300-600 the flaps and slats are not bonded to the airframe and when the flaps are retracted a charge of 800-1400 volts of static buildup arcs to the rear spar or the wing skin causing spark erosion. This was brought to the attention of Airbus Industrie and the FAA and nothing was ever done about it. Guess who discovered this problem and fought very hard to have the systems properly bonded. Give up? It was I. So, I am very familiar with the generation and build up of static charges on aircraft and helicopters.. Maybe not from a scientific standpoint but from a very practical standpoint.
“If I had a subordinate who spoke as you do, dug into absurd points as you do, and who simply could not learn, as you can't - I'd fire him without a second thought”.
Nick, I am almost 71 years old and I have been gainfully employed since 1956 and most likely, I make more money than you do. What you think of me as a person makes absolutely no difference to me. As I had indicated previously you attack me personally stating that my ideas are pure drivel and do not warrant any consideration yet when I ask you to respond to certain technical matters you step up the attack mode and do not reply.
Every thing in your above post is pure vitriol and as I stated before you should watch Dr. Phil. You have to learn to maintain an even disposition when you come on these threads no matter how much you disagree with what I say or what some other person might say. If you read the first post on this thread by Steve76, he stated that he experienced a glowing or sparking phenomenon while flying through a snowstorm. He also indicated that his communication system went haywire. That is exactly what I stated about our 214s in Iran. If his helicopter rotor system can glow or spark, why can’t mine? Regarding humidity in Saudi it can be almost 100% near the Gulf.
In country it can be less than 5%. That coupled with sand and dust will cause spark discharge from the rotor system. Especially on a helicopter such as the late model Cobras and other Bells with an elastomeric teeter bearing. This also holds true on helicopters that do not have an adequate bonding system between the blades, the head and on to the transmission. I understand that on newer helicopter designs they incorporate static wicks on the blade to dissipate the static charge. Quite possibly under the right conditions this discharge will be visible.
Would you believe that on the A-310 and the A-300-600 the flaps and slats are not bonded to the airframe and when the flaps are retracted a charge of 800-1400 volts of static buildup arcs to the rear spar or the wing skin causing spark erosion. This was brought to the attention of Airbus Industrie and the FAA and nothing was ever done about it. Guess who discovered this problem and fought very hard to have the systems properly bonded. Give up? It was I. So, I am very familiar with the generation and build up of static charges on aircraft and helicopters.. Maybe not from a scientific standpoint but from a very practical standpoint.
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This post may be mooted by the big victories in Afghanistan however, I was watching CNN this evening and they showed several shots of helicopter operations at night using night vision lenses and there were bright spark-like lights emanating from the rotor blade tips on the helicopters in the shot. Let’s assume that these sparks are visible only with night vision equipment what is to say that our enemies don’t have such equipment. My first story stands no matter what Nick says and that there is no such thing as stealth operations in that area or, any other area with the equipment that is presently fielded.
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
[ 14 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
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The sugar crystal thing Nick mentioned is called triboluminescence (sp?). It's difficult to see because very little visible light is produced by the sugar.
If you use WintOGreen Lifesavers, you can convince yourself that it works. The flavour in those lifesavers is fluorescent so the relatively abundant ultraviolet light produced by the triboluminescence causes them to glow.
So, quit arguing about who's got the best resume, go buy some lifesavers, stand in front of a mirror with all the lights out and crunch the lifesavers in your teeth while watching in the mirror.
Matthew.
If you use WintOGreen Lifesavers, you can convince yourself that it works. The flavour in those lifesavers is fluorescent so the relatively abundant ultraviolet light produced by the triboluminescence causes them to glow.
So, quit arguing about who's got the best resume, go buy some lifesavers, stand in front of a mirror with all the lights out and crunch the lifesavers in your teeth while watching in the mirror.
Matthew.
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To: Nick Lappos
Nick, in several previous posts I indicated that I had witnessed a static discharge from helicopter rotor blades in Iran to which you in part uttered the following;
I quote,"You are off the wall and basically a crackpot, with ideas and interpretations that are just short of bizarre".
Just because you say it is not so does not make it not so. To me, you sit in your lofty spot and pontificate as to what is right and, what is wrong and that only your point of view is correct. Well, I don't accept that premise and as a result I contacted Dayton-Granger the largest manufacturer of static discharge wicks among other systems.
Here is my message to them:
Dear Mr. Kelley,
I have several questions regarding your static discharge product line.
1) Do you manufacture static discharge wicks for helicopter rotor blades?
2) If you do, what function do they perform?
A) Are they installed to eliminate the corona discharge from the blade tips?
B) Are they installed to decrease the night time visibility of the helicopter due to corona discharge thus compromising
nigh time covert operations?
C) If installed do they dissipate the static charge before the static charge can build up and result in visible discharge from the wicks?
Can you provide any technical literature on your product line especially if you produce them for helicopters.
Any help in this matter will be appreciated.
With warm regards,
S L Zuckerman, President
Here is their response:
Thank you very much for your interest in our static dischargers.
Dayton-Granger manufacturers a variety of dischargers for helicopters.
1. Dischargers for helicopter blades perform the same function as standard dischargers. The dischargers greatly reduce corona discharges from the aircraft antennas, as well as helicopter rotor blades.
2. The dischargers are designed to bleed off the current at a voltage below the corona threshold without interference. Static dischargers promote the discharge of relatively large currents at moderate voltages. Static dischargers have a lower corona threshold than the blade structure and therefore go into corona before the blade structure goes into corona. The corona current is bled through a high resistance (6-200) megohms, and thus the corona spark is de-coupled from the aircraft by approximately 50 dB.
Nick, the last time I checked my Websters Universal College Dictionary it references a corona as visible light. Based on what Dayton-Granger stated the discharger goes into corona before the blade does and there is a possibility that this corona is also visible.
Now, I ask the following question. Should I and the others take your word or that of the company that makes the equipment?
[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
Nick, in several previous posts I indicated that I had witnessed a static discharge from helicopter rotor blades in Iran to which you in part uttered the following;
I quote,"You are off the wall and basically a crackpot, with ideas and interpretations that are just short of bizarre".
Just because you say it is not so does not make it not so. To me, you sit in your lofty spot and pontificate as to what is right and, what is wrong and that only your point of view is correct. Well, I don't accept that premise and as a result I contacted Dayton-Granger the largest manufacturer of static discharge wicks among other systems.
Here is my message to them:
Dear Mr. Kelley,
I have several questions regarding your static discharge product line.
1) Do you manufacture static discharge wicks for helicopter rotor blades?
2) If you do, what function do they perform?
A) Are they installed to eliminate the corona discharge from the blade tips?
B) Are they installed to decrease the night time visibility of the helicopter due to corona discharge thus compromising
nigh time covert operations?
C) If installed do they dissipate the static charge before the static charge can build up and result in visible discharge from the wicks?
Can you provide any technical literature on your product line especially if you produce them for helicopters.
Any help in this matter will be appreciated.
With warm regards,
S L Zuckerman, President
Here is their response:
Thank you very much for your interest in our static dischargers.
Dayton-Granger manufacturers a variety of dischargers for helicopters.
1. Dischargers for helicopter blades perform the same function as standard dischargers. The dischargers greatly reduce corona discharges from the aircraft antennas, as well as helicopter rotor blades.
2. The dischargers are designed to bleed off the current at a voltage below the corona threshold without interference. Static dischargers promote the discharge of relatively large currents at moderate voltages. Static dischargers have a lower corona threshold than the blade structure and therefore go into corona before the blade structure goes into corona. The corona current is bled through a high resistance (6-200) megohms, and thus the corona spark is de-coupled from the aircraft by approximately 50 dB.
Nick, the last time I checked my Websters Universal College Dictionary it references a corona as visible light. Based on what Dayton-Granger stated the discharger goes into corona before the blade does and there is a possibility that this corona is also visible.
Now, I ask the following question. Should I and the others take your word or that of the company that makes the equipment?
[ 16 November 2001: Message edited by: Lu Zuckerman ]
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Lu,
Anyone who takes your word gets just hot air.
Helicopters do not glow in the dark, you cannot see them coming miles away, you are mistaken, you are wrong. Don't try to bend the words of some poor unsuspecting fellow who makes static equipment, don't ask the uncle of a cousin of a friend of an instructor to do an "experiment" for you.
I had email from several military high time pilots who all wonder what planet you are from. All agree, with hundreds of hours of night and night goggle time, that helos do not glow in the dark. But you stand on the ramp in Iran 25 years ago and see it. Get your eyes checked.
Anyone who takes your word gets just hot air.
Helicopters do not glow in the dark, you cannot see them coming miles away, you are mistaken, you are wrong. Don't try to bend the words of some poor unsuspecting fellow who makes static equipment, don't ask the uncle of a cousin of a friend of an instructor to do an "experiment" for you.
I had email from several military high time pilots who all wonder what planet you are from. All agree, with hundreds of hours of night and night goggle time, that helos do not glow in the dark. But you stand on the ramp in Iran 25 years ago and see it. Get your eyes checked.
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To: Nick Lappos
"I would (and have) listened, and I always admit when I am mistaken. I want to learn from this forum, too, and I always do. That is what I expect from the posters that I respect - good honest intellectual discussion".
This is a quote from another one of your posts.
If what you have stated above then why do you insist that I am wrong when the company offers substantiating evidence that makes the discharge wicks. They responded to most of my questions (which reflected my ideas) and specifically stated that the wicks are installed to eliminate corona discharge from the rotorblade tips.
CNN has shown several shots of CH-47s, Blackhawks and a CH-53 all discharging what appears to be sparks from the blade tips. Granted the pictures were taken with a night vision lens but that not withstanding the glow was there.
The helicopters I referenced as having a prominent corona ring around the discs were B-214s and AH1-Js, both of which have elastomeric teeter bearings and no bonding to the gearbox. This high static charge causes magnetization of the masts and any steel parts of the rotorhead. This same magnetization is effected on the B-412, which has elastomeric bearings in the rotorhead and no means to drain the static charge.
The other Bell helicopters in our fleet had the same corona problem but to a lesser degree. Having served in the Middle East you would be aware that there is fine particulate dust and sand entrained in the air and that the humidity is very low. These conditions acting in concert will generate a lot of static electricity. These same conditions exist in Iran and in Afghanistan where the CNN pictures were made.
I would strongly suggest you contact Dayton-Granger or, talk to your engineering department (electronics or, lightning suppression) Your argument is not with me, it is with Dayton-Granger.
This is a note to pilots of the 214s and 412s to obtain a gaussimeter from your machine shop and check the level of magnetization on the masts. Then check the overhaul manuals for the transmissions and look under allowable residual magnetization. It will astound you to see how much the measured magnetization exceeds the allowable. This is caused by high levels of static electricity that can't be bled off to the transmission and therefor under the right conditions will discharge from the blade tips as corona effect.
"I would (and have) listened, and I always admit when I am mistaken. I want to learn from this forum, too, and I always do. That is what I expect from the posters that I respect - good honest intellectual discussion".
This is a quote from another one of your posts.
If what you have stated above then why do you insist that I am wrong when the company offers substantiating evidence that makes the discharge wicks. They responded to most of my questions (which reflected my ideas) and specifically stated that the wicks are installed to eliminate corona discharge from the rotorblade tips.
CNN has shown several shots of CH-47s, Blackhawks and a CH-53 all discharging what appears to be sparks from the blade tips. Granted the pictures were taken with a night vision lens but that not withstanding the glow was there.
The helicopters I referenced as having a prominent corona ring around the discs were B-214s and AH1-Js, both of which have elastomeric teeter bearings and no bonding to the gearbox. This high static charge causes magnetization of the masts and any steel parts of the rotorhead. This same magnetization is effected on the B-412, which has elastomeric bearings in the rotorhead and no means to drain the static charge.
The other Bell helicopters in our fleet had the same corona problem but to a lesser degree. Having served in the Middle East you would be aware that there is fine particulate dust and sand entrained in the air and that the humidity is very low. These conditions acting in concert will generate a lot of static electricity. These same conditions exist in Iran and in Afghanistan where the CNN pictures were made.
I would strongly suggest you contact Dayton-Granger or, talk to your engineering department (electronics or, lightning suppression) Your argument is not with me, it is with Dayton-Granger.
This is a note to pilots of the 214s and 412s to obtain a gaussimeter from your machine shop and check the level of magnetization on the masts. Then check the overhaul manuals for the transmissions and look under allowable residual magnetization. It will astound you to see how much the measured magnetization exceeds the allowable. This is caused by high levels of static electricity that can't be bled off to the transmission and therefor under the right conditions will discharge from the blade tips as corona effect.
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Just to reinforce the views of Nick's high time military pilots on the subject, and to quote a type that Lu has mentioned - I flew the ST version of the 214 for 17 years in various parts of the world, mainly in the North Sea. The arrangements for bonding of the main rotor blades - or rather the lack of them - were the same for the 214 and the 214ST. I suppose that 30 percent of my time on the type was at night and I would guess that on no more than 10 occasions in that 17 years did I see a corona of static on the blades. Usually it was on the ground during taxying. The thought that all the time we flew around all lit up is amusing. If the military used a 214ST, the opposition wouldn't need to see lit up blades to track it - with the noise we made, once they started to hear the blades they had time to **** , shower and shave before taking aim.
On the icing side, those big fat noisy blades were the reason we had such a good icing clearance - you could really hang some amount of ice on the airframe, knowing that those blades kept relatively free of the stuff.
On the icing side, those big fat noisy blades were the reason we had such a good icing clearance - you could really hang some amount of ice on the airframe, knowing that those blades kept relatively free of the stuff.