"I will give employer $10k" !
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it wasn't for the fact that PPRUNE FAN #1's post are usually much more verbose but with a better handle on grammar and spelling, I'd think that he and High Nr are one and the same 
Ah-ha, but wait.... where is our Lord Gymble; King of the Wind-up Merchants?
Cheers
Whirls
Ah-ha, but wait.... where is our Lord Gymble; King of the Wind-up Merchants?
Cheers
Whirls
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...before you bark like a poodle at the people in this business who are really working very hard towards the same goal as this guy who is paying his way into a pilot seat!
High Nr has a point. Is blatantly paying an employer so different from shelling out all that dosh to get more qualifications? The North Sea companies used to take new CPLs; now they want an IR before they consider you (unless that's changed; I haven't kept up to date). Are the pilots who pay £20,000+ to get that IR and a job doing anything any different? Aren't they effectively just giving the companies that money? They're just not advertising the fact.
Yes, the fact that some people have lots of money screws it for those of us that don't. The fact that so many aviation-addicted idiots like us will pay out so much to be allowed to fly for a living means there are no grants, no free training, none of the things professionals in other fields get. That's the way it is. This guy is simply spelling it out more bluntly than most, that's all.
I agree with whoever said he'd be better off getting more qualifications with the money (can't be bothered to scroll back to find out who it was). But is he doing anything wrong? No. And why should he care if he screws it for the rest of us, if it gets him a job? Would you feel sorry for me, if you got a job which I wanted, in this cut-throat industry of ours? Of course you bloody wouldn't!!!
So why don't you all stop whinging and think logically for a change.
Whirly
(who actually now has enough flying work to be totally knackered, and may regret putting this so strongly when she recovers.)
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
High Nr,
Whirls = Whirlygig
Whirly = Whirlybird
A small, subtle difference! But given that it was me who was a little (only a little, mind!) insulting by comparing you to the illustrious PPF#1, I assume 'tis I to whom you refer!
As for "who is" PPF#1 - oh please do a search for some of his posts; normally highly entertaining if not taken too seriously; ditto for Gymble!
You may well have a valid point to make High Nr, but you will instantly get everyone's backs up by launching in and calling them losers (no apostrophe).
The difference though is that whilst many newly qualified pilots have paid for their training and ratings, that training and rating is theirs and theirs alone and they can take it with them whereever they go!
The 10k paid to a prospective employer is dead money; assuming Australian employment law is not too dissimilar from the UK, then I would suggest that there wouldn't be anything in this guy's employment contract to protect his 10k investment. So, the company could take him on, get his 10 grand and sack him within the few months probationary period and pocket the dough!
A fool-hardy plan.
Cheers
Whirls
Whirls = Whirlygig
Whirly = Whirlybird
A small, subtle difference! But given that it was me who was a little (only a little, mind!) insulting by comparing you to the illustrious PPF#1, I assume 'tis I to whom you refer!
As for "who is" PPF#1 - oh please do a search for some of his posts; normally highly entertaining if not taken too seriously; ditto for Gymble!
You may well have a valid point to make High Nr, but you will instantly get everyone's backs up by launching in and calling them losers (no apostrophe).
The difference though is that whilst many newly qualified pilots have paid for their training and ratings, that training and rating is theirs and theirs alone and they can take it with them whereever they go!
The 10k paid to a prospective employer is dead money; assuming Australian employment law is not too dissimilar from the UK, then I would suggest that there wouldn't be anything in this guy's employment contract to protect his 10k investment. So, the company could take him on, get his 10 grand and sack him within the few months probationary period and pocket the dough!
A fool-hardy plan.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South of the Equator
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm retired Whirls.....built up so much wealth whilst flying, that I could retire a little before my 78th birthday...!!!
So I dont care if I insult folk.....only the under achievers will take offence, the rest are the folk that will shape the industries future due to their initiative.
Yes, I know #1.......smile.
So I dont care if I insult folk.....only the under achievers will take offence, the rest are the folk that will shape the industries future due to their initiative.
Yes, I know #1.......smile.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So I dont care if I insult folk
only the under achievers will take offence
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All this is making me wonder...
From what I gather from reading here over the past months is that the current helicopter industry is largely full of older guys (and gals) who either came through the military, or made it when the employment climate made it easier through paid type-ratings, IR not necessary to get a co-pilot NS job, etc.
So, now things have changed, the mil isn't pumping out as many heli jocks and no-one offers sponsorships: how is the industry filling it's new seats? Are we now in a situation where they're being filled by kids with rich parents? Is it going to become an underpaid privelege to get a job for those that perhaps don't really need one in the first place?
Si
From what I gather from reading here over the past months is that the current helicopter industry is largely full of older guys (and gals) who either came through the military, or made it when the employment climate made it easier through paid type-ratings, IR not necessary to get a co-pilot NS job, etc.
So, now things have changed, the mil isn't pumping out as many heli jocks and no-one offers sponsorships: how is the industry filling it's new seats? Are we now in a situation where they're being filled by kids with rich parents? Is it going to become an underpaid privelege to get a job for those that perhaps don't really need one in the first place?
Si
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Sandbox
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The minute that we allow this kind of behavior to occur, we are letting ourselves down as pilots. What other occupation dictates that the employee pays the employer to work??? Bull@#%$....
It then sets a precedent, and we all will have the same ****e to deal with.. Employers will then expect payment from prospective pilots.
Same as the "will fly for food" principle.. Everybody in the industry suffers downstream.
STOP THE MADNESS
It then sets a precedent, and we all will have the same ****e to deal with.. Employers will then expect payment from prospective pilots.
Same as the "will fly for food" principle.. Everybody in the industry suffers downstream.
STOP THE MADNESS
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, right, and let's unionise and go on strike and refuse to work unless they triple our pay, and give really good jobs to 200 hour CPLs. Actually, while we're about it, let's demand that they offer scholarships for training and guaranteed jobs to anyone who wants to become a helicopter pilot...why should we pay for it all? I'll be delighted to be your shop steward, and I have a loud voice, so right now - EVERYBODY OUT!!!!!!
Like I said before, get real!
Like I said before, get real!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Stupid Pilots needed.
Must have:
Deep pockets, preferably thick wallets, blond blue eyed, IQ at room temp and be prepared to go brown nose."
If this truly is the job description, I should be chief pilot.
Must have:
Deep pockets, preferably thick wallets, blond blue eyed, IQ at room temp and be prepared to go brown nose."
If this truly is the job description, I should be chief pilot.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think this whole thing is a wind-up. Why would anyone place such an ad in The Australian in the hope that prospective employers would read it? There can't be that many ME employers in Aus, it would make more sense to call all the chief pilots and tell them personally.
Having said that, this guy is 37 years old, low time CPL, he wants a multi-engine job with 500 hours guaranteed and he is prepared to pay an employer to take the added risk by giving him a chance. I don't see what the song and dance is about. He is not going to change the hiring system within the industry.
tm
Having said that, this guy is 37 years old, low time CPL, he wants a multi-engine job with 500 hours guaranteed and he is prepared to pay an employer to take the added risk by giving him a chance. I don't see what the song and dance is about. He is not going to change the hiring system within the industry.
tm
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I saw an ad for a pilot on a web site today (it was an old ad so don't all go scrambling for it). The job was based in Northern Canada and possibly because of the location the employment criteria weren't quite as stringent as you normally see, hours, type, that sort of thing. The only strict criteria, that I could see, was that the pilot obviously had to have a Canadian compliant licence.
The web site in question was set up much like a forum so employers post an advert and potential pilots can post a response.
Some likely lad/lass instead of getting off their a*se and researching the possibility of converting their licence to a Canadian one posted, what seemed to me to be, a task to the potential employer to find out how they could convert their licence; and if they did could they have the job.
To my mind the helicopter industry is the same as any other industry, there will always be those with a rich Mummy or Daddy and others with the benefit of the old boy network. The rest of us have to make ourselves employable and that means, as well as type ratings and hours and all the other specifics to the aviation industry, a certain amount of get up and go, not sitting back moaning that no one wants to give you a job.
Personally I think there are other ways of making an employer believe that you are exactly what his business needs other than paying him, defeats the object really.
Rant over.
H.
The web site in question was set up much like a forum so employers post an advert and potential pilots can post a response.
Some likely lad/lass instead of getting off their a*se and researching the possibility of converting their licence to a Canadian one posted, what seemed to me to be, a task to the potential employer to find out how they could convert their licence; and if they did could they have the job.
To my mind the helicopter industry is the same as any other industry, there will always be those with a rich Mummy or Daddy and others with the benefit of the old boy network. The rest of us have to make ourselves employable and that means, as well as type ratings and hours and all the other specifics to the aviation industry, a certain amount of get up and go, not sitting back moaning that no one wants to give you a job.
Personally I think there are other ways of making an employer believe that you are exactly what his business needs other than paying him, defeats the object really.
Rant over.
H.
Guest
Posts: n/a
In one way or another, all professions require us to 'pay' to get at least that first job, whether it be a paper qualification, un- or low paid real world experience, working years of articles or apprenticeship, or professional fees etc.
Would it have been regarded differently if alleged would be pilot had promised a potential employer to spend $10k of his own money for whatever training was deemed necessary to do the job ?
Sounds like a good deal to the employer, somewhat easier to swallow than an outright bribe, follows low cost airline methods, and as long as safety is not compromised, what's the difference ?
As for the ex-military boys and girls, and I'm not one of them, let's not forget that they entered a deal with their respective governments to get their training, without a guaranteed pay back in civvie street unless they stayed alive.
It did involve the inherent risk of an array of enemies - and the Americans, irrespective of whether you are on their side or not - shooting at and possibly killing them. So maybe those of us who took the 'hard' route of paying for it ourselves with profits from the 'battlefields' of commerce or remortgages or, if you were really lucky, somebody else's money, should give them just a little bit of slack now and then.
Not too much though 'cos they can't half moan sometimes...
Would it have been regarded differently if alleged would be pilot had promised a potential employer to spend $10k of his own money for whatever training was deemed necessary to do the job ?
Sounds like a good deal to the employer, somewhat easier to swallow than an outright bribe, follows low cost airline methods, and as long as safety is not compromised, what's the difference ?
As for the ex-military boys and girls, and I'm not one of them, let's not forget that they entered a deal with their respective governments to get their training, without a guaranteed pay back in civvie street unless they stayed alive.
It did involve the inherent risk of an array of enemies - and the Americans, irrespective of whether you are on their side or not - shooting at and possibly killing them. So maybe those of us who took the 'hard' route of paying for it ourselves with profits from the 'battlefields' of commerce or remortgages or, if you were really lucky, somebody else's money, should give them just a little bit of slack now and then.
Not too much though 'cos they can't half moan sometimes...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: AUS
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my mind there is absolutely no similarity between, training for a position, and paying for a position. Whatever worthwhile career you choose in life there will always be a cost (monetry and otherwise) in obtaining the qualifications necessary to obtain an entry into your chosen field. Thats just the way it is. However what this fool is attempting to do is say......
Look I know I don't have the qualifications to get the job I want. I know there are people around that are better qualified, who can do the job better but I believe in a quick fix, a back door. I don't believe in the right way or the best way, or hard work, or sacrifice. I just believe in my way... the short cut.
We really need more people like this in aviation. I know he's not getting my job, I'm safe, well until I get airbourne that is because he may soon be sharing my skies.
The system of supply and demand means that generally the people that should get the jobs do get the jobs. More or less. I for one hope "John" can't get around the system.
Good luck to anyone who hires him.
Look I know I don't have the qualifications to get the job I want. I know there are people around that are better qualified, who can do the job better but I believe in a quick fix, a back door. I don't believe in the right way or the best way, or hard work, or sacrifice. I just believe in my way... the short cut.
We really need more people like this in aviation. I know he's not getting my job, I'm safe, well until I get airbourne that is because he may soon be sharing my skies.
The system of supply and demand means that generally the people that should get the jobs do get the jobs. More or less. I for one hope "John" can't get around the system.
Good luck to anyone who hires him.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 1 deg south, avoiding Malaria P Falciparium
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paying to get the first job? Heck I am still paying. Heres a scenario: current employer pays well below standard for flying helicopter X, but will check me out in a larger twin, helicopter Y. I could make the 10K more working for a different operator but big picture for my career getting into Helicopter Y will pay more in the future.....
How is that much different than the fellow willing to pay for his type. Again if you think that is obsurd look in the fied wind industry.
RB
How is that much different than the fellow willing to pay for his type. Again if you think that is obsurd look in the fied wind industry.
RB
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: AUS
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The difference is you've earned the job you've got and if what you say is correct you are in a position to advance your career thru the experience you have gained, even though you may be earning less than you could elsewhere. What you describe is normal in any industry. No matter what job it's not just about the money. It may be about quality of work, or lifestyle, or location, or in your case opportunity for advancement.
And this guy is not paying for a type rating he is paying for a job. Pure and simple. From his add he is willing to pay for the rating AND an extra 10 grand for the job.... Makes me wonder what he will be prepared to do to keep a job !!!!
And this guy is not paying for a type rating he is paying for a job. Pure and simple. From his add he is willing to pay for the rating AND an extra 10 grand for the job.... Makes me wonder what he will be prepared to do to keep a job !!!!
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a good job I know Heli-Ice and I know where he lives.
Heli-Ice, that comment had better be tongue in cheek otherwise I'm gonna whoop your a$$. And when I've finished your wife can take over!
Cheers
Whirls
Heli-Ice, that comment had better be tongue in cheek otherwise I'm gonna whoop your a$$. And when I've finished your wife can take over!
Cheers
Whirls