Blackpool airport just lost another business user!
PPR and Overhead
More and more airports seem to be stating that they are PPR, even if they are a comparitivley small, often quiet airfield. Can anyone clearly define the definative method of PPR? Where does it state PPR is mandatory TELEPHONE FIRST OR ELSE?, or do you go in person to inspect the facilities, write a letter, or just call up on the radio 5 NM or 10 NM out. Surely calling up on the radio is PPR?
I would suggest that an A/G operator has NO authority, his only roll is to pass the most very basic of airfield information. If the pilot then decides to land, or take off without using the information provided , that's his choice. An A/G operator CANNOT give instructions to ANY aircraft, in the air, or on the ground.
So, who says it is safer to join over head? If the circuit was that busy decending down into it would not be my choice with a heli,
I for one, would feel a lot safer joining base leg!.
TCC, If he had contacted the airfield earlier, "he would have been told an OHJ was required," mmmm? who would have made this decision/order then?
TCC, rule 17, please enlighten me?
TCC, "had it been possible to join the base leg it would have been done?" who would have made this decision?
TCC, your A/G an operator, may be an experienced pilot, I don't know him, but I will bet my bottom dollar he is a fixed wing pilot.
I fly 7-800 hours a year in helis and CANNOT, say again CANNOT remember the last time I was asked, or ordered to join over head!!!!!
I think there is a big green eye in the area!!
TOT
I would suggest that an A/G operator has NO authority, his only roll is to pass the most very basic of airfield information. If the pilot then decides to land, or take off without using the information provided , that's his choice. An A/G operator CANNOT give instructions to ANY aircraft, in the air, or on the ground.
So, who says it is safer to join over head? If the circuit was that busy decending down into it would not be my choice with a heli,
I for one, would feel a lot safer joining base leg!.
TCC, If he had contacted the airfield earlier, "he would have been told an OHJ was required," mmmm? who would have made this decision/order then?
TCC, rule 17, please enlighten me?
TCC, "had it been possible to join the base leg it would have been done?" who would have made this decision?
TCC, your A/G an operator, may be an experienced pilot, I don't know him, but I will bet my bottom dollar he is a fixed wing pilot.
I fly 7-800 hours a year in helis and CANNOT, say again CANNOT remember the last time I was asked, or ordered to join over head!!!!!
I think there is a big green eye in the area!!
TOT
Going back to the original topic (ie which airfields to avoid because they aren't heli-friendly), can I please add Bristol (EGGD) to that list?
Rather than give the details on a public forum, feel free to PM me for an account of a very frustrating and expensive trip in for fuel.
Regards,
B73
Rather than give the details on a public forum, feel free to PM me for an account of a very frustrating and expensive trip in for fuel.
Regards,
B73
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This over-reaction to the terrorist attacks is an artifact of our culture, because we always answer the last attack with a new way to prevent it, long after it happened, and in no way actually adding to security. I can imagine Mohammad Atta standing there next to a clerk who is looking up the Reg of the aircraft to be sure it was not really built in a garage the previous night! Imagine the mind of a government official who thinks having everyone on earth stand by while a clerk looks up the reg is any way to stop global terrorism!
We face similar things here on the proper side of the Atlantic. I saw an 80 year old lady being frisked by a TSA agent the other day. She had a pink suit on, a small hat with a veil, and couldn't have been more than 90 pounds. I felt safer after she had been checked!
The shear civility of our populace, to put up with the inanities because we know the Government is actually trying (albeit exactly the way any large, clumbsy and inefficient organization tries) to do the right thing, they just are so bad at it.
Think of the way we all stand in line at airports to screen against the next time. In the US, you spend about 1 extra hour for each flight due to security. At 1.5 million pax per day in the US, this means we spend about 270,000 man-years of work each year to "protect" ourselves. That is roughly the work needed to build all three of the great pyramids, each year!
Meanwhile, the real goons are thinking of the next dirty deal, which has nothing to do with aviation.
The answer has nothing to do with clerks with lists, or scanners or guns. The real fix is.... Wait, this is a helicopter forum!
We face similar things here on the proper side of the Atlantic. I saw an 80 year old lady being frisked by a TSA agent the other day. She had a pink suit on, a small hat with a veil, and couldn't have been more than 90 pounds. I felt safer after she had been checked!
The shear civility of our populace, to put up with the inanities because we know the Government is actually trying (albeit exactly the way any large, clumbsy and inefficient organization tries) to do the right thing, they just are so bad at it.
Think of the way we all stand in line at airports to screen against the next time. In the US, you spend about 1 extra hour for each flight due to security. At 1.5 million pax per day in the US, this means we spend about 270,000 man-years of work each year to "protect" ourselves. That is roughly the work needed to build all three of the great pyramids, each year!
Meanwhile, the real goons are thinking of the next dirty deal, which has nothing to do with aviation.
The answer has nothing to do with clerks with lists, or scanners or guns. The real fix is.... Wait, this is a helicopter forum!
Better red than ...
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Can anyone clearly define the definative method of PPR? Where does it state PPR is mandatory TELEPHONE FIRST OR ELSE?,
You would think the less of an airfield it was (The XYZ Hotel) the more telephone would apply.
... and the better equipped with radio/ VDF/ radar etc the more chance of a call at 10NM.
But then again ....
h-r
(Incidentally, many Spamcan drivers asked to make an OHJ have to climb for it too!).
Thread Starter
Two topics on one thread.......
not uncommon for this forum but firstly:
Guess the sandtoft radio operator needs to check up on his authority and mis-guided (but well-intentioned no doubt)advice to helis. Std heli join: low-level at right angles to the runway in use. If the pilot joining chooses to ignore 'information' then that's for him to justify - the pilot flying the joining aircraft. Heli pilots mainly use airfields because they have fuel, not some nice long strip of grass or tarmac!
A bit like FIS outside of controlled airspace, the more 'helpful' the atc operator is the the more the pilot tends to trust them! A case of authority-creep me thinks. The Puddle Jumper pilot/radio operator is well within their rights to provide information but not to tell a pilot to join o/h, thereby adding to the traffic up there - and certainly not within their rights to get snotty with the guy.
Now if MD600 caused an incident or a solo stude to go-around after electing to join against 'advice' then it's a different ball game.
My home base is LBA - and the flexibility varies with the pro atc girls and guys - great in the main but some crazy waiting times for 'wake-turb' are applied when there's the usual crosswind that's blown it to Newcastle by the time you get there!!!
Why does the service differ so wildly?
We all have to operate to written regulations...........the quality of the delivery personnel is the key. The Yanks found this out with the motivation/effectiveness of the people who were meant to be checking/applying their internal security measures (almost non-existent, arrogance?)
So the next time you're asked to do something out of order, or against common logical practice - spare 5 minutes to find out the logic behind it and educate.............
If you need to 'educate' by taking the culprit behind the preverbial bike shed, so be it.
Anyway, MD600, I thought you were buying Sandtoft - that way you caould turn it into a huge heliport where planks were banned:-)
Not reading your Pooley's/AFE - familiarity - contempt blah blah. Not very professional I'd even venture to say
Guess the sandtoft radio operator needs to check up on his authority and mis-guided (but well-intentioned no doubt)advice to helis. Std heli join: low-level at right angles to the runway in use. If the pilot joining chooses to ignore 'information' then that's for him to justify - the pilot flying the joining aircraft. Heli pilots mainly use airfields because they have fuel, not some nice long strip of grass or tarmac!
A bit like FIS outside of controlled airspace, the more 'helpful' the atc operator is the the more the pilot tends to trust them! A case of authority-creep me thinks. The Puddle Jumper pilot/radio operator is well within their rights to provide information but not to tell a pilot to join o/h, thereby adding to the traffic up there - and certainly not within their rights to get snotty with the guy.
Now if MD600 caused an incident or a solo stude to go-around after electing to join against 'advice' then it's a different ball game.
My home base is LBA - and the flexibility varies with the pro atc girls and guys - great in the main but some crazy waiting times for 'wake-turb' are applied when there's the usual crosswind that's blown it to Newcastle by the time you get there!!!
Why does the service differ so wildly?
We all have to operate to written regulations...........the quality of the delivery personnel is the key. The Yanks found this out with the motivation/effectiveness of the people who were meant to be checking/applying their internal security measures (almost non-existent, arrogance?)
So the next time you're asked to do something out of order, or against common logical practice - spare 5 minutes to find out the logic behind it and educate.............
If you need to 'educate' by taking the culprit behind the preverbial bike shed, so be it.
Anyway, MD600, I thought you were buying Sandtoft - that way you caould turn it into a huge heliport where planks were banned:-)
Not reading your Pooley's/AFE - familiarity - contempt blah blah. Not very professional I'd even venture to say
Last edited by EESDL; 14th Aug 2005 at 16:22.
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TOT
Maybe this will help....
Rules for avoiding aerial collisions
17 (1) General
(a) Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it
shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible
measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft.
(b) An aircraft shall not be flown in such proximity to other aircraft as to create a
danger of collision.
(c) Subject to sub-paragraph (g), aircraft shall not fly in formation unless the
commanders of the aircraft have agreed to do so.
(d) An aircraft which is obliged by these Rules to give way to another aircraft shall
avoid passing over or under the other aircraft, or crossing ahead of it, unless
passing well clear of it.
(e) Subject to sub-paragraph (g), an aircraft which has the right-of-way under this rule
shall maintain its course and speed.
(f) For the purposes of this rule a glider and a flying machine which is towing it shall
be considered to be a single aircraft under the command of the commander of
the towing flying machine.
(g) Sub-paragraphs (c) and (e) shall not apply to an aircraft flying under and in
accordance with the terms of a police air operator’s certificate.
(2) Converging
(a) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (3) and (4), an aircraft in the air shall give
way to other converging aircraft as follows:
(i) flying machines shall give way to airships, gliders and balloons;
(ii) airships shall give way to gliders and balloons;
(iii) gliders shall give way to balloons.
(b) (i) Subject to the provisions of sub-paragraphs (a) and (b)(ii), when two aircraft
are converging in the air at approximately the same altitude, the aircraft
which has the other on its right shall give way.
22 April 2003
CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 14
(ii) Mechanically driven aircraft shall give way to aircraft which are towing other
aircraft or objects.
(3) Approaching head-on
When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so in the air and there is
danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right.
(4) Overtaking
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft which is being overtaken in the air shall
have the right-of-way and the overtaking aircraft, whether climbing, descending
or in horizontal flight, shall keep out of the way of the other aircraft by altering
course to the right, and shall not cease to keep out of the way of the other aircraft
until that other aircraft has been passed and is clear, notwithstanding any change
in the relative positions of the two aircraft.
(b) A glider overtaking another glider in the United Kingdom may alter its course to
the right or to the left.
(5) Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 39, a flying machine, glider or airship while
flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows or ought reasonably
to know to be an aerodrome or moving on an aerodrome, shall unless, in the case of
an aerodrome having an air traffic control unit that unit otherwise authorises:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that
aerodrome, or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(6) Order of landing
(a) An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way
over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water.
(b) (i) Subject to sub-paragraph (ii), in the case of two or more flying machines,
gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the
aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right-of-way, but it shall not cut
in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land or overtake that
aircraft.
(ii) (aa) When an air traffic control unit has communicated to any aircraft an
order of priority for landing, the aircraft shall approach to land in that
order.
(bb) When the commander of an aircraft is aware that another aircraft is
making an emergency landing, he shall give way to that aircraft, and at
night, notwithstanding that he may have received permission to land,
shall not attempt to land until he has received further permission so to
do.
(7) Landing and take-off
(a) A flying machine, glider or airship shall take-off and land in the direction indicated
by the ground signals or, if no such signals are displayed, into the wind, unless
good aviation practice demands otherwise.
22 April 2003
CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 15
(b) A flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if the
runway is not clear of other aircraft unless, in the case of an aerodrome having
an air traffic control unit, that unit otherwise authorises.
(c) Where take-offs and landings are not confined to a runway:
(i) a flying machine or glider when landing shall leave clear on its left any
aircraft which has landed or is already landing or about to take off; if such a
flying machine or glider is about to turn it shall turn to the left after the
commander of the aircraft has satisfied himself that such action will not
interfere with other traffic movements; and
(ii) a flying machine about to take off shall take up position and manoeuvre in
such a way as to leave clear on its left any aircraft which has already taken
off or is about to take off.
(d) A flying machine after landing shall move clear of the landing area as soon as it
is possible to do so unless, in the case of an aerodrome having an air traffic
control unit, that unit otherwise authorises.
Long winded but I give you, Rule 17. (and other applicable sections)
Happy Landings!!
Maybe this will help....
Rules for avoiding aerial collisions
17 (1) General
(a) Notwithstanding that the flight is being made with air traffic control clearance it
shall remain the duty of the commander of an aircraft to take all possible
measures to ensure that his aircraft does not collide with any other aircraft.
(b) An aircraft shall not be flown in such proximity to other aircraft as to create a
danger of collision.
(c) Subject to sub-paragraph (g), aircraft shall not fly in formation unless the
commanders of the aircraft have agreed to do so.
(d) An aircraft which is obliged by these Rules to give way to another aircraft shall
avoid passing over or under the other aircraft, or crossing ahead of it, unless
passing well clear of it.
(e) Subject to sub-paragraph (g), an aircraft which has the right-of-way under this rule
shall maintain its course and speed.
(f) For the purposes of this rule a glider and a flying machine which is towing it shall
be considered to be a single aircraft under the command of the commander of
the towing flying machine.
(g) Sub-paragraphs (c) and (e) shall not apply to an aircraft flying under and in
accordance with the terms of a police air operator’s certificate.
(2) Converging
(a) Subject to the provisions of paragraphs (3) and (4), an aircraft in the air shall give
way to other converging aircraft as follows:
(i) flying machines shall give way to airships, gliders and balloons;
(ii) airships shall give way to gliders and balloons;
(iii) gliders shall give way to balloons.
(b) (i) Subject to the provisions of sub-paragraphs (a) and (b)(ii), when two aircraft
are converging in the air at approximately the same altitude, the aircraft
which has the other on its right shall give way.
22 April 2003
CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 14
(ii) Mechanically driven aircraft shall give way to aircraft which are towing other
aircraft or objects.
(3) Approaching head-on
When two aircraft are approaching head-on or approximately so in the air and there is
danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right.
(4) Overtaking
(a) Subject to sub-paragraph (b), an aircraft which is being overtaken in the air shall
have the right-of-way and the overtaking aircraft, whether climbing, descending
or in horizontal flight, shall keep out of the way of the other aircraft by altering
course to the right, and shall not cease to keep out of the way of the other aircraft
until that other aircraft has been passed and is clear, notwithstanding any change
in the relative positions of the two aircraft.
(b) A glider overtaking another glider in the United Kingdom may alter its course to
the right or to the left.
(5) Flight in the vicinity of an aerodrome
Without prejudice to the provisions of rule 39, a flying machine, glider or airship while
flying in the vicinity of what the commander of the aircraft knows or ought reasonably
to know to be an aerodrome or moving on an aerodrome, shall unless, in the case of
an aerodrome having an air traffic control unit that unit otherwise authorises:
(a) conform to the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft intending to land at that
aerodrome, or keep clear of the airspace in which the pattern is formed; and
(b) make all turns to the left unless ground signals otherwise indicate.
(6) Order of landing
(a) An aircraft while landing or on final approach to land shall have the right-of-way
over other aircraft in flight or on the ground or water.
(b) (i) Subject to sub-paragraph (ii), in the case of two or more flying machines,
gliders or airships approaching any place for the purpose of landing, the
aircraft at the lower altitude shall have the right-of-way, but it shall not cut
in front of another aircraft which is on final approach to land or overtake that
aircraft.
(ii) (aa) When an air traffic control unit has communicated to any aircraft an
order of priority for landing, the aircraft shall approach to land in that
order.
(bb) When the commander of an aircraft is aware that another aircraft is
making an emergency landing, he shall give way to that aircraft, and at
night, notwithstanding that he may have received permission to land,
shall not attempt to land until he has received further permission so to
do.
(7) Landing and take-off
(a) A flying machine, glider or airship shall take-off and land in the direction indicated
by the ground signals or, if no such signals are displayed, into the wind, unless
good aviation practice demands otherwise.
22 April 2003
CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
Section 2 Page 15
(b) A flying machine or glider shall not land on a runway at an aerodrome if the
runway is not clear of other aircraft unless, in the case of an aerodrome having
an air traffic control unit, that unit otherwise authorises.
(c) Where take-offs and landings are not confined to a runway:
(i) a flying machine or glider when landing shall leave clear on its left any
aircraft which has landed or is already landing or about to take off; if such a
flying machine or glider is about to turn it shall turn to the left after the
commander of the aircraft has satisfied himself that such action will not
interfere with other traffic movements; and
(ii) a flying machine about to take off shall take up position and manoeuvre in
such a way as to leave clear on its left any aircraft which has already taken
off or is about to take off.
(d) A flying machine after landing shall move clear of the landing area as soon as it
is possible to do so unless, in the case of an aerodrome having an air traffic
control unit, that unit otherwise authorises.
Long winded but I give you, Rule 17. (and other applicable sections)
Happy Landings!!
