Would you become a professional helicopter pilot again?
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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And then see how you will feel about
starry-eyed and ga-ga about flying,
newbies who think you deserve to be paid F'all cause your JOB is classed as "Cool" and seem oblivious to the inherant dangers, and quality of life in some of the absoloute S***holes that you have to live in to get a job think you may love.
starry-eyed and ga-ga about flying,
newbies who think you deserve to be paid F'all cause your JOB is classed as "Cool" and seem oblivious to the inherant dangers, and quality of life in some of the absoloute S***holes that you have to live in to get a job think you may love.
My local dustman has his hands in s***, even if he doesn't work in a s***hole, and he makes peanuts too.
I know people who trained for years in all sorts of fields who don't make anything like what pilots make.
It comes down to supply and demand like everything else. What makes helicopter pilots think they're so special?
Sometimes I really hate this industry!!!
Whirly
(in uncharacteristic rant mode)
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Ga-Ga and starry eyed
Its not aimed directly at you, but looking back I realised I fell into that bracket aswell, fortunately I had no dependants, but have seen A FEW people loose all their savings, and wives etc over training for this industry, then to be left with nothing cause they can't afford to finish all the ratings or meet minimum requirements.
I genuinely hate seing it happen, the thought of quiting your secure job with a pension, selling your house, moving wife and kids to a new country/environment lifestyle so you can live out your dream, may seem romantic, but their is Rarely a silver lining.
Getting a job as a Flight Instructor is not a success story, no matter what way a flight school tries to dress it up.
Getting a job as a F/O in the middle east isn't any better either.
Saying you are familiar with risk analysis so you understand what you are getting yourself in for, is just comparing apples and oranges.
If you are one of those stubborn type people who thinks the song "I did it my way" was written about you, fair enough, role the dice hope it works out, but if you have a moral concience and think of your family's future, if not your own.
I would advise you take on board what people who have been there and done that have to say, and not to dismiss them as grumpy old bitter fools who don't realise how good they have it!
And Whirly what type of Pilots salaries are you referring to?
Most Flight Instructors make $15 an hour, some would be lucky to get 2/3 hours flying a day if the weather is good, while sitting around 12 hours, if weather is bad, tuff crap.
After spending all that money on training, and going through all the hoops, and all the commitment do you not think that deserve a small bit more then a Mcdonalds drive thru service assistant?
The Original Whirly
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Watchoutbelow,
I don't know where you live/work. In the UK, helicopter instructors make £30-£60 per hour, dpending on the school and area. Yes, you may only work for about three or four hours a day on average, it's true. That's around £120/day. Toilet cleaners are on minimum wage - around £4 per hour. Most work about a 35 hour week; that's £140. I rest my case.
I don't know where you live/work. In the UK, helicopter instructors make £30-£60 per hour, dpending on the school and area. Yes, you may only work for about three or four hours a day on average, it's true. That's around £120/day. Toilet cleaners are on minimum wage - around £4 per hour. Most work about a 35 hour week; that's £140. I rest my case.
Well, praise the Lord and let´s count our blessings! - We earn more than toilet cleaners!!
I am, at last, relieved that we've established the benchmark against which our profession is to be judged. For that, Whirly, I thank you.
From Banjo George
You are wrong! It is the the brigades of "starry eyed newbies", willing to pole for free, that do not favour (pro-)heli pilots.
From Whirly
It is you. It is Banjo George. It is every dreamer who opines "you don't really work", who thinks that to be a helicopter pilot is so special. And to that end, you offer to work for free, naively thinking that someone is doing you a favour! Worse still, you have the gaul to pipe up with a "supply and demand" here, and a "make way for us keenies, you bitter & twisted curmudgeons" there. We sincerely thank you for that industry overview.
Once again, the amateur legions rail against what they deem to be an unpalatable post by PPRUNE FAN #1. An easy target, maybe, but imagine yourself the other side of 10,000 hours and now let's hear YOUR replies to the same provocation.
Half a bottle of Rioja ago, I smugly assured myself that I would never post whilst drunk
. Sadly, I am a weak, weak man and fell off the wagon and onto my laptop; defeated by Whirly and her toilet-cleaning sidekick.
Yours, PPRUNE FAN #1 FAN!!!!
I am, at last, relieved that we've established the benchmark against which our profession is to be judged. For that, Whirly, I thank you.
From Banjo George
The supply and demand does NOT favour heli pilots, irrespective of professionalism or training or anything - that's just the way it seems, like it or not.
From Whirly
It comes down to supply and demand like everything else.What makes helicopter pilots think they're so special?
Once again, the amateur legions rail against what they deem to be an unpalatable post by PPRUNE FAN #1. An easy target, maybe, but imagine yourself the other side of 10,000 hours and now let's hear YOUR replies to the same provocation.
Half a bottle of Rioja ago, I smugly assured myself that I would never post whilst drunk
. Sadly, I am a weak, weak man and fell off the wagon and onto my laptop; defeated by Whirly and her toilet-cleaning sidekick.Yours, PPRUNE FAN #1 FAN!!!!
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I wonder if toilet cleaners spend years of training and thousands upon thousands of pounds learning how to clean toilets, and get to see their friends and colleagues die doing there duty for the sacred throne!
The "Will fly for food" crap goes on the hole time, not only high profile places like Boat Pics, or Traffic watch, but also among private owners, getting flown into the races or safety pilots flying left seat.
Their are quite a few people making a lot of money from helicopters, its just a shame that they have fooled us into believing that the most important part of the machine is the cheapest.
The "Will fly for food" crap goes on the hole time, not only high profile places like Boat Pics, or Traffic watch, but also among private owners, getting flown into the races or safety pilots flying left seat.
Their are quite a few people making a lot of money from helicopters, its just a shame that they have fooled us into believing that the most important part of the machine is the cheapest.
PPF#1 is quite correct. You do sound VERY new 'goaround7'.
You make yourself sound that way by a couple of comments like "buy a couple more ratings" WTF would you do that?
It sounds like you are trying to make yourself more employable. It is folly to try and argue with someone who has a lot more experience dealing with life as a pilot.
This is a very very very difficult industry to get into and if you are close to, or over 30 you better think very carefully about choosing to spend a lot of money on a feeling.
Getting a start in this industry is not about 1yr of training, its about the 3-4yrs of poverty, post that delightful time.
Banjo, ask yourself if you have the stamina to compete with a 21yr old who can, and will; hold on, grovel, work for nothing, exist on a shoestring and sleep in his car to eventually end up with a job. If you cannot deal with that then invest the income somewhere else.
Then ask yourself if it is worth your marriage, children, girlfriend, stability of life, retirement and friends.
If you think you are going to be working in a city, investigate the industry some more.
If you think you will have time off in the summer, investigate some more.
If you think that it will be easier to have a resemblence of a normal life at 3000, 5000 or 10000hrs, investigate some more.
If you think you will have a pension and retirement when you are old, investigate the industry.
Another reply had this comment in it:
"And when you get that Job be it flying into Silverstone, filming, pleasureflying, wedding parties pipeline inspection etc.
You know it was worth it and as I said earlier you will not have to work another day."
Sorry, but if that is all the english industry has to offer then I seriously advise you to spend your money in Africa or Canada. Described above is a list of very very boring tasks for a pilot.
Oh the stories we could all tell.....eh guys!!
...perhaps I should start a thread on the subject of "getting a start" stories??
You make yourself sound that way by a couple of comments like "buy a couple more ratings" WTF would you do that?
It sounds like you are trying to make yourself more employable. It is folly to try and argue with someone who has a lot more experience dealing with life as a pilot.
This is a very very very difficult industry to get into and if you are close to, or over 30 you better think very carefully about choosing to spend a lot of money on a feeling.
Getting a start in this industry is not about 1yr of training, its about the 3-4yrs of poverty, post that delightful time.
Banjo, ask yourself if you have the stamina to compete with a 21yr old who can, and will; hold on, grovel, work for nothing, exist on a shoestring and sleep in his car to eventually end up with a job. If you cannot deal with that then invest the income somewhere else.
Then ask yourself if it is worth your marriage, children, girlfriend, stability of life, retirement and friends.
If you think you are going to be working in a city, investigate the industry some more.
If you think you will have time off in the summer, investigate some more.
If you think that it will be easier to have a resemblence of a normal life at 3000, 5000 or 10000hrs, investigate some more.
If you think you will have a pension and retirement when you are old, investigate the industry.
Another reply had this comment in it:
"And when you get that Job be it flying into Silverstone, filming, pleasureflying, wedding parties pipeline inspection etc.
You know it was worth it and as I said earlier you will not have to work another day."
Sorry, but if that is all the english industry has to offer then I seriously advise you to spend your money in Africa or Canada. Described above is a list of very very boring tasks for a pilot.
Oh the stories we could all tell.....eh guys!!
...perhaps I should start a thread on the subject of "getting a start" stories??
Join Date: May 2004
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Banjo
All I can say is GO FOR IT WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT!!!
Helicopter flying is one of the most satisfying careers there is. Imagine being paid for doing your hobby. I have been flying for 8 years and have NEVER looked back. I begged, borrowed and would have stolen if I had to in the persuit of flying helo's. I'm STILL paying for it, but hey, it's worth it, every step of the way.
There are some good schools in SA, so cruise the net and see what you can find. With the current Rand/Pound exchange, you are sure to save some boodle.
Good luck anyway
DD
All I can say is GO FOR IT WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT!!!
Helicopter flying is one of the most satisfying careers there is. Imagine being paid for doing your hobby. I have been flying for 8 years and have NEVER looked back. I begged, borrowed and would have stolen if I had to in the persuit of flying helo's. I'm STILL paying for it, but hey, it's worth it, every step of the way.
There are some good schools in SA, so cruise the net and see what you can find. With the current Rand/Pound exchange, you are sure to save some boodle.
Good luck anyway
DD
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Charlie s charlie
I agree with that plan of yours. Sounds quite good. I'm not 100% sure of the work rights in S.A, but know a couple of guys that did either f/w or r/w training here, and actually got work. Regardless, no one can take your hours away, and a licence can be converted at any stage of the game.
Just a couple of helicopter ops in S.A : Training, charter, film work, Fire Fighting, EMS, Game capturing, corporate etc. etc. etc.
The best is, as CSC says, find out about the work rights before starting training abroad.
DD 
I agree with that plan of yours. Sounds quite good. I'm not 100% sure of the work rights in S.A, but know a couple of guys that did either f/w or r/w training here, and actually got work. Regardless, no one can take your hours away, and a licence can be converted at any stage of the game.
Just a couple of helicopter ops in S.A : Training, charter, film work, Fire Fighting, EMS, Game capturing, corporate etc. etc. etc.
The best is, as CSC says, find out about the work rights before starting training abroad.
DD
Reality Check
Approximately 1500 of these licences are Rotary Wing. These are only the CURRENT licences on register. Welcome to the jungle....
From CASA:
quote:
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NOTE: In Australia there are currently more than 14,000 Commercial and ATPL pilots who are not employed as pilots. The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) is reviewing the requirement for the continued immigration of Pilots under the Skills Assessment for the Purposes of Migration (Aircraft Pilot, ASCO code 2541-11).
It is anticipated that in the near future, Aircraft Pilots will be removed from the Skilled Occupations List (SOL) which applies to applications lodged under the points-tested migration arrangements.
CASA has been advised that once the pilot occupation has been removed from the SOL, the change becomes effective immediately and no further applications will be processed by DIMIA under this category, including those already received and not yet finalised.
Due to the time and financial costs involved in converting an overseas licence to the Australian equivalent for migration skills assessment purposes, potential applicants should take these factors into consideration before deciding whether to convert their licence when this avenue may not be available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From CASA:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: In Australia there are currently more than 14,000 Commercial and ATPL pilots who are not employed as pilots. The Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) is reviewing the requirement for the continued immigration of Pilots under the Skills Assessment for the Purposes of Migration (Aircraft Pilot, ASCO code 2541-11).
It is anticipated that in the near future, Aircraft Pilots will be removed from the Skilled Occupations List (SOL) which applies to applications lodged under the points-tested migration arrangements.
CASA has been advised that once the pilot occupation has been removed from the SOL, the change becomes effective immediately and no further applications will be processed by DIMIA under this category, including those already received and not yet finalised.
Due to the time and financial costs involved in converting an overseas licence to the Australian equivalent for migration skills assessment purposes, potential applicants should take these factors into consideration before deciding whether to convert their licence when this avenue may not be available
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Well after reading all the individual responses, two points have crystalised.
1. People are willing to fly for food because when you are new and green behind the ears that is the only way of getting your foot into the door.
After all the Insurance will be loaded against newcomers and the employers of course are not very keen entrusting you with their very expensive maschine and of course reputation.
2.It's a question of view point, whether helicopter flying is work or pleasure.
I am lucky enough to say it is pleasure and I know it can finish tomorrow.
Life is what you make of it. And I for one wish to fly in the Great British Isles doing anything I can which involves flying Helicopters returning nightly to my loved ones.
Regards Brilliant Suff
1. People are willing to fly for food because when you are new and green behind the ears that is the only way of getting your foot into the door.
After all the Insurance will be loaded against newcomers and the employers of course are not very keen entrusting you with their very expensive maschine and of course reputation.
2.It's a question of view point, whether helicopter flying is work or pleasure.
I am lucky enough to say it is pleasure and I know it can finish tomorrow.
Life is what you make of it. And I for one wish to fly in the Great British Isles doing anything I can which involves flying Helicopters returning nightly to my loved ones.
Regards Brilliant Suff
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Dear All,
Seldom do I read all, or nearly all of a thread, but I've been away for a while and this one caught my eye.
I just wanted to comment on something said a little earlier about the "newbies" keeping the pay down. It's quite simply BS in my opinion.
I fly in the US and I know that most of the posts seem to come from the UK but I think that the general principle is the same.
It's the senior guys who are willing to fly for crap who keep a cap on the pay. I see it all the time here in the US. Too many who remember the day when just to get a job to put (some) food on the table was a major achievement. Now many of these fellows who I have and still do fly with, and whom I have the utmost recpect for, think that after 30 years and 15,000+ hours, that $60,000 p.a. is satisfactory......!!!!! It's not, and in fact there are many who fly for a lot less.
I have been flying for ten years, paid for it myself as most of us do these days and have scraped together a fairly respectable 5400+ hours. Currently working an Alaska season, 500Ds etc, etc......
I refuse to work for crap pay. Yes it might mean that when I move on, that it may take a little more effort and time to find that employer who finally realises that to get quality, he needs to be prepared to bloody well pay for it. But so be it. Have some guts, pride and don't sell youselves low. The message will get across. It may take some time but it will happen........
Ok thats all.
Aloha
Seldom do I read all, or nearly all of a thread, but I've been away for a while and this one caught my eye.
I just wanted to comment on something said a little earlier about the "newbies" keeping the pay down. It's quite simply BS in my opinion.
I fly in the US and I know that most of the posts seem to come from the UK but I think that the general principle is the same.
It's the senior guys who are willing to fly for crap who keep a cap on the pay. I see it all the time here in the US. Too many who remember the day when just to get a job to put (some) food on the table was a major achievement. Now many of these fellows who I have and still do fly with, and whom I have the utmost recpect for, think that after 30 years and 15,000+ hours, that $60,000 p.a. is satisfactory......!!!!! It's not, and in fact there are many who fly for a lot less.
I have been flying for ten years, paid for it myself as most of us do these days and have scraped together a fairly respectable 5400+ hours. Currently working an Alaska season, 500Ds etc, etc......
I refuse to work for crap pay. Yes it might mean that when I move on, that it may take a little more effort and time to find that employer who finally realises that to get quality, he needs to be prepared to bloody well pay for it. But so be it. Have some guts, pride and don't sell youselves low. The message will get across. It may take some time but it will happen........
Ok thats all.
Aloha
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Too many posts to comment on each individual one.
There seems to be a major issue over pay and the fact that somehow 'starry eyed' fools like myself are artificially keeping pay rates low. That may or may not be true. However, would employer X let me get into their new Hughes if I had a rating and say 300 hrs on the clock for £20 per hour or do you think they would give it to pilot Y with 3500 hrs on the clock for £60 per hour ?
I don't know the answer to this, but were it my helicopter, I'd probably transfer the cost to the customer and have the experienced pilot.
Another thing, if this is such a s..t industry to be in, why on earth did any of these 5000 hrs + pilots enter it or indeed stay ? Surely any of these people are savvy enough to get another, and better paid job ? Oh no, must be something to do with enjoying it ?
Well, I think I've just passed my class 1 medical. I have all the finance in place, I've crossed the 't's and dotted the i's, and I've accepted the gamble. If it all goes pear shaped, I'll bail out after the PPL(H).
BG
There seems to be a major issue over pay and the fact that somehow 'starry eyed' fools like myself are artificially keeping pay rates low. That may or may not be true. However, would employer X let me get into their new Hughes if I had a rating and say 300 hrs on the clock for £20 per hour or do you think they would give it to pilot Y with 3500 hrs on the clock for £60 per hour ?
I don't know the answer to this, but were it my helicopter, I'd probably transfer the cost to the customer and have the experienced pilot.
Another thing, if this is such a s..t industry to be in, why on earth did any of these 5000 hrs + pilots enter it or indeed stay ? Surely any of these people are savvy enough to get another, and better paid job ? Oh no, must be something to do with enjoying it ?
Well, I think I've just passed my class 1 medical. I have all the finance in place, I've crossed the 't's and dotted the i's, and I've accepted the gamble. If it all goes pear shaped, I'll bail out after the PPL(H).
BG
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Career Change
Im 33 years old and have been a Police Officer for 10 years. I no longer enjoy my job and have always wanted to fly helicopters. I currently earn $70, 000 as a cop and in less then 10 years I will lock in a pension that will pay 50% of my salary for life. However, I cant collect it till age 50. Thats 17 years from now. Im married with a 13year old step son.
I currrently enjoy great job security, good benefits and good pay. Should I give it all up for my dream of flying helicopters?? My wife supports me and will do whatever I want. If it were just me I'd quit and take my chances, but I have a family to think about too. Im not happy being the Police. I feel I will regret not chasing my dream, but Id also regret not waiting 10 years to lock my pension in. Any advice would be helpful, its driving me crazy.
I currrently enjoy great job security, good benefits and good pay. Should I give it all up for my dream of flying helicopters?? My wife supports me and will do whatever I want. If it were just me I'd quit and take my chances, but I have a family to think about too. Im not happy being the Police. I feel I will regret not chasing my dream, but Id also regret not waiting 10 years to lock my pension in. Any advice would be helpful, its driving me crazy.
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To give you a quick idea of the financial investment, I am taking my Instrument check ride and still have another 30 hours of flying time until I can take my Commercial. I have already spent $25,000 US. I figure it will be close to $50,000 US before I am finished with my CPL/CFII. At which point I can only hope that I will be able to get a job as an instructor and make a measly $1,500 to $2,000 per month. That is the figure that I have been told by current and former instructors. Just some food for thought.
Also, if you do a search you will find where this question has been raised by numerous people in similar situations.
I myself make in the same ballpark as you, but I am all too happy to give it up to pursue my dream. I also have two young children and they are my best source of support. They ask all sorts of questions that help me study. They want to know everything and trying to explain it to them allows me to know the material better. I can't wait until I have enough time to safely take them for a flight. I also know that it was the right decision for me, as I have not had a second thought....ok maybe on my first check ride but it passed quickly as did I. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. I would be happy to discuss what little (can't stress that word enough) I know.
edited to correct some horrible spelling errors, so feel free to pick it apart......where's the spell check?!?!?
Also, if you do a search you will find where this question has been raised by numerous people in similar situations.
I myself make in the same ballpark as you, but I am all too happy to give it up to pursue my dream. I also have two young children and they are my best source of support. They ask all sorts of questions that help me study. They want to know everything and trying to explain it to them allows me to know the material better. I can't wait until I have enough time to safely take them for a flight. I also know that it was the right decision for me, as I have not had a second thought....ok maybe on my first check ride but it passed quickly as did I. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. I would be happy to discuss what little (can't stress that word enough) I know.
edited to correct some horrible spelling errors, so feel free to pick it apart......where's the spell check?!?!?
Last edited by gomexjr; 4th Aug 2004 at 04:55.
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Hey , you know that 17 years you have to go to get your pension? well I have been flying for the last 17 after giving up my office job at age 30.
My pension will be poor but the last 17 years have been FANTASTIC!!!
Do it
My pension will be poor but the last 17 years have been FANTASTIC!!!
Do it
Mate, do the next 10 or so years in your police job until you get your pension requirements met. Hopefully your entitlements will be not subject to future changes in legislation; by that, I mean if you have been told they will be avialable to you, they will be there no matter what.
In the meantime, take whatever spare money you can come up with, and use it to start getting licenses, ratings and so on.
By doing this, you are starting down the flying road whilst ensuring you have a decent superannuation for your family (not sure what other super schemes you may be contributing to, but a government guaranteed pension is pretty hard to beat), and you will find out how badly you really want to fly for a living.
Sounds like your wife is understanding, so the reality of giving up some spending money to further your flying aspirations shouldn't be too much of a heartache.
Good on you, and good luck.
In the meantime, take whatever spare money you can come up with, and use it to start getting licenses, ratings and so on.
By doing this, you are starting down the flying road whilst ensuring you have a decent superannuation for your family (not sure what other super schemes you may be contributing to, but a government guaranteed pension is pretty hard to beat), and you will find out how badly you really want to fly for a living.
Sounds like your wife is understanding, so the reality of giving up some spending money to further your flying aspirations shouldn't be too much of a heartache.
Good on you, and good luck.
I don't know how feasible it'd be, but once you've got your Commercial, couldn't you try for a post in your local Aviation Unit. You'd have the best of both worlds then, still in the force so racking up the pension, plus flying for a living.
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The best advice so far is from Arm out the window.
When you're younger and single, life seems a breeze...but we all get old and life becomes a little harder. A pension for the rest of your life is a good thing and a family to enjoy it with...
Fly for fun ie have some security behind you before venturing out in the harsh reality world of Rotary Wing. And before I get shot down by some, I am a commercial pilot, enjoys it, but wished I hadn't made so many sacrifices to get there, ie financial, marriage, living overseas most of the time etc.
When you're younger and single, life seems a breeze...but we all get old and life becomes a little harder. A pension for the rest of your life is a good thing and a family to enjoy it with...
Fly for fun ie have some security behind you before venturing out in the harsh reality world of Rotary Wing. And before I get shot down by some, I am a commercial pilot, enjoys it, but wished I hadn't made so many sacrifices to get there, ie financial, marriage, living overseas most of the time etc.