Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?
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ifr question
guys
if you are a vfr pilot and happen to find yourself in imc conditions due to what ever the stupid circumstances you have put yourself in, can not see above or below you in unfamiliar country at say 800ft .
do you go for the ground and hope the cloud breaks at a couple of hundred feet or do you go high and hope you come out on top of the cloud base and then figure how do get down,and yes i know your saying without vfr training you will not last anyway ,but for this question lets say i do.by the way, this has not happened to me, but it could.
cs
if you are a vfr pilot and happen to find yourself in imc conditions due to what ever the stupid circumstances you have put yourself in, can not see above or below you in unfamiliar country at say 800ft .
do you go for the ground and hope the cloud breaks at a couple of hundred feet or do you go high and hope you come out on top of the cloud base and then figure how do get down,and yes i know your saying without vfr training you will not last anyway ,but for this question lets say i do.by the way, this has not happened to me, but it could.
cs
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1) Wings level.
2) Ball in the middle.
3) Speed under control.
4) Gently reduce power, pray there are no wires ahead and descend at no more than 500 ft/min until vmc.
5) Land.
6) Shut down.
7) Kick your own arse and make sure it hurts.
8) Next time plan your flight so you KNOW your terrain and turn back a lot earlier before you get yourself killed.
2) Ball in the middle.
3) Speed under control.
4) Gently reduce power, pray there are no wires ahead and descend at no more than 500 ft/min until vmc.
5) Land.
6) Shut down.
7) Kick your own arse and make sure it hurts.
8) Next time plan your flight so you KNOW your terrain and turn back a lot earlier before you get yourself killed.
A good answer to your question is very hard to provide. The answer depends upon your actual situation...compounded by your training, ability, currency in instrument flying, equipment on board the aircraft, and a host of other issues.
I would not begin to give you a cookbook answer....beyond simply saying avoidance of that situation is the key to survival even for very experienced pilots in well equipped aircraft.
My rule is never fly so fast I cannot turn around, stop, or otherwise avoid an obstacle or losing sight of the ground. If visibility gets bad....go very slow...and stay low....land as soon as possible....and never leave a safe landing spot until you have another in sight. If the ceiling gets low but you have good visiblility....slow down so you can avoid obstacles....Wires will kill you.....again....better to land.
In a single engine aircraft.....I will no fly over a fog bank or low cloud....unless I can see the ground and make a safe landing in the event of an engine failure. The previous rules remain in effect.
Helicopters are designed to go slow and hover....fly them that way in bad weather unless you are on an IFR flight plan, have your clearance, and the machine and yourself are equipped, ready, and all planned up for the trip.
Thus far my beard is gray....not white.
I would not begin to give you a cookbook answer....beyond simply saying avoidance of that situation is the key to survival even for very experienced pilots in well equipped aircraft.
My rule is never fly so fast I cannot turn around, stop, or otherwise avoid an obstacle or losing sight of the ground. If visibility gets bad....go very slow...and stay low....land as soon as possible....and never leave a safe landing spot until you have another in sight. If the ceiling gets low but you have good visiblility....slow down so you can avoid obstacles....Wires will kill you.....again....better to land.
In a single engine aircraft.....I will no fly over a fog bank or low cloud....unless I can see the ground and make a safe landing in the event of an engine failure. The previous rules remain in effect.
Helicopters are designed to go slow and hover....fly them that way in bad weather unless you are on an IFR flight plan, have your clearance, and the machine and yourself are equipped, ready, and all planned up for the trip.
Thus far my beard is gray....not white.
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Keep the helo under control, as Shy Torque says, but only descend as a last resort. Turn toward the direction that has the best Wx. Call ATC on an emergency frequency and tell them what has happened. Ask them if the Wx is better somewhere else, and ask them to give you a heading to get there. Don't get too wrapped up in their bull, they will ask you to do silly things, forgetting that you are alone, scared witless and not too able to fill in Federal forms while complying.
If you must descend, ask them to vector you to a flat spot away from towns and masts and the like. Then set up 300 fpm descent at 50 knots, and keep settling until you see something, then flare and stop.
If you must descend, ask them to vector you to a flat spot away from towns and masts and the like. Then set up 300 fpm descent at 50 knots, and keep settling until you see something, then flare and stop.
Nick's last suggestion is a well known survival technique that works grand over flat places like the ocean or parts of Kansas....I might even suggest a slightly slower rate of descent....hopefully there is nothing sticking up to run into before you get some forward visibility. If you find yourself in this kind of pickle....the odds are not on your side anyway.
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180 turn
for what its worth:
i was always taught to make a 180 turn holding same alt.
rolling out on your reverse track should take you to the VFR
you were flying in 2 minutes ago.If it doesnt at least you are
now over terrain you have just flown over and will know if
its safe to set up a descent or not.
MK10
i was always taught to make a 180 turn holding same alt.
rolling out on your reverse track should take you to the VFR
you were flying in 2 minutes ago.If it doesnt at least you are
now over terrain you have just flown over and will know if
its safe to set up a descent or not.
MK10
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Y, if you are suddenly 'over' IMC rather than 'in it' (may be common in Ireland if heading over the St G Channel at higher level), about face and go back to VMC below conditions.
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guys
thankyou for the input ,but yet again the experts who never have a problem have come out with how silly of me to put my self in that postion.in all the hours flying some people have never had a problem .......................i,am just saying if your head has gone up your a.. and you have made the mistake what do you do
i think mk10 has a point and take the chance in the turn and hope you have nothing at the same level as you.us mer jocks without one million hours up may make the odd mistake.
cs
thankyou for the input ,but yet again the experts who never have a problem have come out with how silly of me to put my self in that postion.in all the hours flying some people have never had a problem .......................i,am just saying if your head has gone up your a.. and you have made the mistake what do you do
i think mk10 has a point and take the chance in the turn and hope you have nothing at the same level as you.us mer jocks without one million hours up may make the odd mistake.
cs
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You have the wrong end of the stick here, people were trying to be helpful, and if you only wanted advice from people without experience why bother posting the question.
However, going back to what you asked, and I am not looking down my nose at you, the very best advice is to plan ahead to avoid the situation occuring if at all possible. During my initial helicopter training we were taught that if we encountered deteriorating weather we should turn back early or failing that "slow down and go down" so that the distance you need to stop matches your speed (this also works on night nvg overland ops!).
Having also spent quite a long time operating both rotary and fixed wing IFR I would caution any pilot not trained and current on instruments about trying to do much beyond maintaining straight and level flight. Loss of control is only likely to occur faster.
Get a Mayday out immediately, keep the machine under control, unless you know EXACTLY where you are and that it is billiard table flat DO NOT DESCEND. Try and ensure you are above safety altitude. Unless the weather is uniformly awful, in which case see my previous point about planning to avoid the situation in the first place, there is a chance you may fly through the conditions. If you now find yourself stranded "on top" get that Mayday out, tell ATC about your lack of experience, maintain control of the machine, and ask for vectors to better weather, or an escort to guide you there.
This may not sound like fantastic advice but I am afraid that the likelihood of surviving an unplanned IFR encounter if you are not instrument trained and current, even for an experienced VFR pilot, is not good. At best you will get scared witless, at worst, well, in a previous life I have unfortunately seen what "at worst" is on a number of occassions.
Sorry if this isn't very positive but really don't go there is the best advice.
However, going back to what you asked, and I am not looking down my nose at you, the very best advice is to plan ahead to avoid the situation occuring if at all possible. During my initial helicopter training we were taught that if we encountered deteriorating weather we should turn back early or failing that "slow down and go down" so that the distance you need to stop matches your speed (this also works on night nvg overland ops!).
Having also spent quite a long time operating both rotary and fixed wing IFR I would caution any pilot not trained and current on instruments about trying to do much beyond maintaining straight and level flight. Loss of control is only likely to occur faster.
Get a Mayday out immediately, keep the machine under control, unless you know EXACTLY where you are and that it is billiard table flat DO NOT DESCEND. Try and ensure you are above safety altitude. Unless the weather is uniformly awful, in which case see my previous point about planning to avoid the situation in the first place, there is a chance you may fly through the conditions. If you now find yourself stranded "on top" get that Mayday out, tell ATC about your lack of experience, maintain control of the machine, and ask for vectors to better weather, or an escort to guide you there.
This may not sound like fantastic advice but I am afraid that the likelihood of surviving an unplanned IFR encounter if you are not instrument trained and current, even for an experienced VFR pilot, is not good. At best you will get scared witless, at worst, well, in a previous life I have unfortunately seen what "at worst" is on a number of occassions.
Sorry if this isn't very positive but really don't go there is the best advice.
What I was taught was to refer straight away to intruments, reduce speed, and begin a level 180 turn back to where you just flew from. For some reason the Australian CPL (H) licence has no IFR training but I did around 4 hours as part of my Fixed-wing PPL! Strange system.
The great thing about helicopters, as everyone has said, is you have the ability to slow things right down if its becoming a bit dodgy, or if possible just land before things become worse.
Cheers BigMike
The great thing about helicopters, as everyone has said, is you have the ability to slow things right down if its becoming a bit dodgy, or if possible just land before things become worse.
Cheers BigMike
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The real answer is "not to be there" but many of us have done it. I pushed my luck too far once on an instructional sortie after being ordered to go out at very low level, fly to the local sloping ground field as a weather check dummy (the course was a long way behind schedule due to prolonged bad weather). The student was flying as he was near the end of his training. We got there OK but as we came around a corner in a small valley, to enter the field, a big piece of cloud rolled towards us. He flared too hard on seeing it, which put us in solid IMC at about 150 feet agl and 45 kts reducing. I took control and climbed as quickly as possible, knowing that somewhere not too far ahead was a 1200 foot mast with support cables. I turned away with my heart in my mouth. We climbed to SALT, put out a PAN call and recovered via a PAR approach. A low time pilot would quite possibly not have made it, it was extremely demanding for me for the first minute or so, even with over a couple of thousand hours on type.
My worry is that a very low time pilot will be unable to fly in control for long on instruments in full IMC on an unstabilised machine. Even a 180 turn might be the catalyst for disaster. If the situation occurs where he has just hit the cloudbase, it might be safer to bite the bullet and lower the lever.
I've had to do that once where a student put us in cloud with a very unstable and slow flying underslung load and not enough fuel to do an IF recovery. He tried to climb to SALT but I took control and a few seconds later we were back in clear air.
Difficult call though; it really depends on the exact situation.
I recall one case of an experienced UK police helicopter pilot attempting a turnback to his helipad after entering cloud at a few hundred feet. He didn't make it.
I advocate that NO attempt is made to do anything that will distract him from keeping all the plates spinning. ATC can be of absolutely NIL use if the pilot loses his attitude control and cannot fly to their instructions.
My worry is that a very low time pilot will be unable to fly in control for long on instruments in full IMC on an unstabilised machine. Even a 180 turn might be the catalyst for disaster. If the situation occurs where he has just hit the cloudbase, it might be safer to bite the bullet and lower the lever.
I've had to do that once where a student put us in cloud with a very unstable and slow flying underslung load and not enough fuel to do an IF recovery. He tried to climb to SALT but I took control and a few seconds later we were back in clear air.
Difficult call though; it really depends on the exact situation.
I recall one case of an experienced UK police helicopter pilot attempting a turnback to his helipad after entering cloud at a few hundred feet. He didn't make it.
I advocate that NO attempt is made to do anything that will distract him from keeping all the plates spinning. ATC can be of absolutely NIL use if the pilot loses his attitude control and cannot fly to their instructions.
I would say some training is better than no training at all. I guess thats why 10 hours IFR is included in most CPL(H) training else where. Your right , most machines used in general GA work don't have gyros but a little training on limited panel could make a difference one day. I was lucky with the 4 hours IFR training I did, as the instructor happened to be a very experienced Helicopter pilot as well, and tried to impress upon me that this was simply to try and save you if you happed to end up in the crap! We did quite a bit of flying with the gyro instruments covered up. Sure flying helicopters is a quite different, not stable etc, but that little bit of training might make the difference one day. I would really prefer not to find out though!!
Cheers BigMike
Cheers BigMike
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Gee you blokes are harsh. This is a typical question asked by many a young pilot and I'm sure all of you have asked it in the past - so give the guy a go.
My answer to your question is to do exactly what are doing now - ask around. Get a feel for alot of responses and maybe if you find yourself in that situation, one of them may come to mind.
But more importantly, understand it is something that can easily kill. Recognise the consequences and recognising the signs of what may happen. This will help you NOT get into that situation.
Keep asking the questions as there is alot of experience tapping away on the keyboards.
My answer to your question is to do exactly what are doing now - ask around. Get a feel for alot of responses and maybe if you find yourself in that situation, one of them may come to mind.
But more importantly, understand it is something that can easily kill. Recognise the consequences and recognising the signs of what may happen. This will help you NOT get into that situation.
Keep asking the questions as there is alot of experience tapping away on the keyboards.
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I'm with ShyTorque on this one - reckon his first advice was pretty good, ie, slow to say 60 kts, keep it dead straight, lower the lever to produce about 500ft ROD and alternately scan instruments and look outside for ground reference.
Trying to do a 180 is pretty high risk for loss of control, I reckon, for a pure VRF pilot in unstabilised machine. Nice rate 1 turn? Unlikely. The panic is very likely to result in excessive/wandering bank angle with inevitable height change and wild speed fluctuations. Terminal chaos.
Minimise what has to be focussed on. Zero bank angle, steady heading, steady speed, the only thing moving is the VSI and altimeter.
Chances are you'll break out before you hit anything. And even if you don't, with a vertical speed of only about 6mph at 500 ft/min you'll probably survive the vertical impact, and with a bit of luck there won't be a horizontal one. It will be a controlled crash and the aircraft will be upright.
Lose control in IMC and you'll have virtually zero chance - it's going to be a big, fatal impact. Even over a nice smooth field.
This way you'll also have to endure the stress of IMC control for the minimum time. Radio calls? Pointless distraction given this approach.
The only caveat to the above is if you've become IMC having wandered into/over fog, rather than low cloud. With a bit of luck you'd be above or close to the top of this - then you would climb to get clear, turn 180 back, being VMC ish, and return to the wonderful sight of terra firma below.
But finally, DON'T treat this as any more than last chance survival if you've been stupid enough to somehow get it this situation, which as others have, said, you should never, ever, get into.
Trying to do a 180 is pretty high risk for loss of control, I reckon, for a pure VRF pilot in unstabilised machine. Nice rate 1 turn? Unlikely. The panic is very likely to result in excessive/wandering bank angle with inevitable height change and wild speed fluctuations. Terminal chaos.
Minimise what has to be focussed on. Zero bank angle, steady heading, steady speed, the only thing moving is the VSI and altimeter.
Chances are you'll break out before you hit anything. And even if you don't, with a vertical speed of only about 6mph at 500 ft/min you'll probably survive the vertical impact, and with a bit of luck there won't be a horizontal one. It will be a controlled crash and the aircraft will be upright.
Lose control in IMC and you'll have virtually zero chance - it's going to be a big, fatal impact. Even over a nice smooth field.
This way you'll also have to endure the stress of IMC control for the minimum time. Radio calls? Pointless distraction given this approach.
The only caveat to the above is if you've become IMC having wandered into/over fog, rather than low cloud. With a bit of luck you'd be above or close to the top of this - then you would climb to get clear, turn 180 back, being VMC ish, and return to the wonderful sight of terra firma below.
But finally, DON'T treat this as any more than last chance survival if you've been stupid enough to somehow get it this situation, which as others have, said, you should never, ever, get into.
I will not be harsh....I will not be harsh....wrong.
Chopper,
In a democratic society the majority carries the issue. I find your last post troubling. Some very experienced and capable folks here have invariably uttered the words along the line of "don't allow yourself to get into this situation." You will note that seems to be the majority view. Those opinions were arrived at over years and years of helicopter flying. They were being polite in the way they said it to you.
The object lesson here appears to be...."Don't let it happen to you....be on guard...be alert....and just do not let it happen."
If your mindset includes the idea of "but if it does then what I will do".....means you are not placing the importance of what the guys are telling you into the correct perspective.
There is no one right answer on what to do if you do go IIMC....but for sure it becomes a moot issue if you never do. You will not become an accident statistic if you never go IIMC....odds are greatly in favor you shall if you do go IIMC. It is easy to avoid....if you keep your wits about you and avoid those situations that lead to the exposure.
One needs to have a plan for such events....that does not hurt...but it starts with being instrument trained, current, and proficient. Not just legally current and proficient...but able to comfortably fly the aircraft on instruments. It also requires an aircraft with the means to conduct IFR flight....and be in an area where IFR flight can be conducted safely. Shy of that.....and you are headed towards that stack of statistics we all read about.
I do not play with snakes.....I would never play with Rattlesnakes or even consider it for any reason. IIMC is a big old nasty tempered Rattlesnake.
I will now step down off my soap box and yield the floor to others.
Chopper,
In a democratic society the majority carries the issue. I find your last post troubling. Some very experienced and capable folks here have invariably uttered the words along the line of "don't allow yourself to get into this situation." You will note that seems to be the majority view. Those opinions were arrived at over years and years of helicopter flying. They were being polite in the way they said it to you.
The object lesson here appears to be...."Don't let it happen to you....be on guard...be alert....and just do not let it happen."
If your mindset includes the idea of "but if it does then what I will do".....means you are not placing the importance of what the guys are telling you into the correct perspective.
There is no one right answer on what to do if you do go IIMC....but for sure it becomes a moot issue if you never do. You will not become an accident statistic if you never go IIMC....odds are greatly in favor you shall if you do go IIMC. It is easy to avoid....if you keep your wits about you and avoid those situations that lead to the exposure.
One needs to have a plan for such events....that does not hurt...but it starts with being instrument trained, current, and proficient. Not just legally current and proficient...but able to comfortably fly the aircraft on instruments. It also requires an aircraft with the means to conduct IFR flight....and be in an area where IFR flight can be conducted safely. Shy of that.....and you are headed towards that stack of statistics we all read about.
I do not play with snakes.....I would never play with Rattlesnakes or even consider it for any reason. IIMC is a big old nasty tempered Rattlesnake.
I will now step down off my soap box and yield the floor to others.
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I am not happy about accepting the premise for your question, at least for daytime flying over non-hostile terrain. Your question assumes implicitly fairly inexperienced pilots.
Bluntly, during the day, if the pilot is so incompetent to get himself inadvertent IMC (rather than doing all the good things others have suggested to keep the aircraft safe) his likely survival time in IMC will probably be measured in seconds, uness he/she is very lucky. If the pilot cannot slow down/turnaround/land as conditions deteriorate, he is so far behind the curve that he will lose it when going IMC.
This does not answer your question, but I believe you are asking the wrong question. Don't get in the situation: during the day you don't need to.
Night time is more difficult. The chances of going inadvertent IMC are much higher, because any pilot may not "see it coming". In conditions where you can maintain surface visual contact, night time can (infrequently) approximate to
day flying. However, aside from these circumstances there is always the possibility of going IMC without warning. So you have to expect it and plan for it. Plan diversions, fuel pland for those diversions, use a helicopter with stabilisation or fly two crew....
It does vary depending upon conditions. Some countries don't allow non-IFR night flying. Others have "almost IFR rules" for night flying - there is a reason for this.
Be very careful about non-(full)IFR night flying. Only go when the forecast and all reports are really good. Plan the flight and diversion in great detail.
Be in the mindset that you will only go if............. NOT you will go unless.
It is appropriate to think of your options for night flying, but I don't think there is a simple single option - it all depends on a host of factors.
[Upon reviewing this I see I have covered the same ground as SASLESS, but I won't remove it - may be yet another person's will move you a little]
Bluntly, during the day, if the pilot is so incompetent to get himself inadvertent IMC (rather than doing all the good things others have suggested to keep the aircraft safe) his likely survival time in IMC will probably be measured in seconds, uness he/she is very lucky. If the pilot cannot slow down/turnaround/land as conditions deteriorate, he is so far behind the curve that he will lose it when going IMC.
This does not answer your question, but I believe you are asking the wrong question. Don't get in the situation: during the day you don't need to.
Night time is more difficult. The chances of going inadvertent IMC are much higher, because any pilot may not "see it coming". In conditions where you can maintain surface visual contact, night time can (infrequently) approximate to
day flying. However, aside from these circumstances there is always the possibility of going IMC without warning. So you have to expect it and plan for it. Plan diversions, fuel pland for those diversions, use a helicopter with stabilisation or fly two crew....
It does vary depending upon conditions. Some countries don't allow non-IFR night flying. Others have "almost IFR rules" for night flying - there is a reason for this.
Be very careful about non-(full)IFR night flying. Only go when the forecast and all reports are really good. Plan the flight and diversion in great detail.
Be in the mindset that you will only go if............. NOT you will go unless.
It is appropriate to think of your options for night flying, but I don't think there is a simple single option - it all depends on a host of factors.
[Upon reviewing this I see I have covered the same ground as SASLESS, but I won't remove it - may be yet another person's will move you a little]
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I've never disagreed with anything Nick Lappos has ever said, but I'm going to do so now.
I believe the last thing a low-time pilot in an unstabilised helicopter should do when encountering inadvertent IMC is put the machine in an even more unstable condition by trying to turn through 180 degrees.
And as for trying to tell someone – don't even think about pushing any buttons and splitting your attention.
Straight ahead, lever down gently, ball in the middle, back to 40kt and about 300fpm and promise God you'll never be as stupid again, if only he'll let you off this time...
I believe the last thing a low-time pilot in an unstabilised helicopter should do when encountering inadvertent IMC is put the machine in an even more unstable condition by trying to turn through 180 degrees.
And as for trying to tell someone – don't even think about pushing any buttons and splitting your attention.
Straight ahead, lever down gently, ball in the middle, back to 40kt and about 300fpm and promise God you'll never be as stupid again, if only he'll let you off this time...
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How about another approach,
Get an instrument rating. If you are going to pay to fly around and build time, why not work on the rating. We should all have IFR skills even when we do not anticipate flying in IFR.
Secondly, if you are going to buy a ship, acknowledge that most accidents are caused by loss of situational awareness. Equip the ship properly. With the help of a regular contributor who is very generous with his time, he has helped lay out a panel for all necessary instrumentation on my VFR ship for IFR flight. The incremental cost is relatively minor.
With the skills learned in the IFR training and a properly equipped ship, you will have every option available in the event you enter IMC and will be able to make a calm and prudent decision.
Get an instrument rating. If you are going to pay to fly around and build time, why not work on the rating. We should all have IFR skills even when we do not anticipate flying in IFR.
Secondly, if you are going to buy a ship, acknowledge that most accidents are caused by loss of situational awareness. Equip the ship properly. With the help of a regular contributor who is very generous with his time, he has helped lay out a panel for all necessary instrumentation on my VFR ship for IFR flight. The incremental cost is relatively minor.
With the skills learned in the IFR training and a properly equipped ship, you will have every option available in the event you enter IMC and will be able to make a calm and prudent decision.
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i'm amazed the number of aircraft flying that do not have an attitude indicator (AI). they only cost a few thousand, which is bugger all compared to the cost of a helicopter, even an r22.
it doesnt matter what method you use in IMC, without an AI you will be upside down in a matter of seconds in an unstabilised small helicopter.
try this.... go flying with a fellow pilot/instructor. tell him to stay close on the controls (and keep a good lookout) while you try to keep straight and level with your eyes closed. i guarantee you wont last long before you're in a turn/dive/climb without knowing it.
then add the panic factor into the equation... and you'll realise why helicopters and poor weather are a lethal combination
it doesnt matter what method you use in IMC, without an AI you will be upside down in a matter of seconds in an unstabilised small helicopter.
try this.... go flying with a fellow pilot/instructor. tell him to stay close on the controls (and keep a good lookout) while you try to keep straight and level with your eyes closed. i guarantee you wont last long before you're in a turn/dive/climb without knowing it.
then add the panic factor into the equation... and you'll realise why helicopters and poor weather are a lethal combination