Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?
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Aplogies for that - The one quoted above is still very pertinent reading in relation to this thread. There's been a lot of bad luck with fatal machine losses from Biggin. Anyone flying in or out must watch the weather here. The temptation to get to the blue sky beyond the ridge is often deadly.
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I agree.
As anyone familiar with the area would already have guessed from my reference to the ridge and turning back to leave the Harvard at Redhill, that was the ridge.
I was actually trying to get back to Duxford, rather than into Biggin, but your point still stands.
As anyone familiar with the area would already have guessed from my reference to the ridge and turning back to leave the Harvard at Redhill, that was the ridge.
I was actually trying to get back to Duxford, rather than into Biggin, but your point still stands.
flying squirrel: what is your definition of "scud running" then?
I am always very very wary of an aviator who thinks he/she is confident with their ability.....
as far as noise nuisance as an excuse for scud running goes - I've heard it all now
I am always very very wary of an aviator who thinks he/she is confident with their ability.....
as far as noise nuisance as an excuse for scud running goes - I've heard it all now
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...Just to add my 2 pennies worth of experience for what its worth to the original Q.
My arse still hurts where I kicked myself for once getting into cloud. I will NEVER do it again. It is the most scary thing knowing you ARE going to die.
Don't ever do it.
One bit of advice, and something that has not been mentioned here. You go directly to your instrument scan and take whatever action you need to (All discussed here earlier). The problem occurs is that although you are looking at your instruments, you keep looking out for a visual reference, then when you come back inside, it takes a while to get back 'on' your instruments.
My limited advice is really concentrate on your instruments, and use just peripheral vision to look outside for the ground, don't keep turning your head, it screws your orientation loads
That's all, for what its worth
Ah.. CAVOK, its good to fly
Jon
My arse still hurts where I kicked myself for once getting into cloud. I will NEVER do it again. It is the most scary thing knowing you ARE going to die.
Don't ever do it.
One bit of advice, and something that has not been mentioned here. You go directly to your instrument scan and take whatever action you need to (All discussed here earlier). The problem occurs is that although you are looking at your instruments, you keep looking out for a visual reference, then when you come back inside, it takes a while to get back 'on' your instruments.
My limited advice is really concentrate on your instruments, and use just peripheral vision to look outside for the ground, don't keep turning your head, it screws your orientation loads
That's all, for what its worth
Ah.. CAVOK, its good to fly
Jon
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There should be no such thing as Inadvertant IMC. It should be a conscious decision to enter cloud and you should do so with a plan in mind. (Anyway, that's the mantra in the military.)
Flying IMC in Black Hawk and Chinook is easy; lots of power, lots of systems to help you out... but in a lighter helicopter not designed for IMC... I shudder at the thought and hope I don't find myself in such a situation.
My two cents worth? You are in a helicopter so there should be no excuse from flying into cloud without some sort of warning.
1.Make the decision early to turn around before you get to cloud.
2.Keep the rotor in the green arc and airspeed where you need it.
3.KEEP FLYING THE BLOODY AIRCRAFT and keep it away from any goats that are in the clouds (apologies to Gary Larson).
4.Try and find a place to land and wait out the bad weather.
If that doesn't work, then there are a lot of guys who have given good advice and who have more experience than me... so do what I do and try and learn something new from them that will hopefully save your life and those of your passengers.
Safe flying.
Flying IMC in Black Hawk and Chinook is easy; lots of power, lots of systems to help you out... but in a lighter helicopter not designed for IMC... I shudder at the thought and hope I don't find myself in such a situation.
My two cents worth? You are in a helicopter so there should be no excuse from flying into cloud without some sort of warning.
1.Make the decision early to turn around before you get to cloud.
2.Keep the rotor in the green arc and airspeed where you need it.
3.KEEP FLYING THE BLOODY AIRCRAFT and keep it away from any goats that are in the clouds (apologies to Gary Larson).
4.Try and find a place to land and wait out the bad weather.
If that doesn't work, then there are a lot of guys who have given good advice and who have more experience than me... so do what I do and try and learn something new from them that will hopefully save your life and those of your passengers.
Safe flying.
The question was: "Inadvertent IMC - What to do if it happens?"
A good friend of mine once told me that it would be a good idea to pull down your pants and turn around in your seat and sit down on the cyclic!
It wouldn´t do much good but at least it would give the aircraft accident investigation board AAIB something to think about
A good friend of mine once told me that it would be a good idea to pull down your pants and turn around in your seat and sit down on the cyclic!
It wouldn´t do much good but at least it would give the aircraft accident investigation board AAIB something to think about
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All good advice so far but I haven't seen a reference to this yet:
Look straight down - at least a glance!
My own experience of one such event, forward vision was lost but the ground was feintly visible straight down. Under these circumstances it would seem reasonable to slow and descend. If there is any ground contact it seems sensible to not lose it.
In this instance I found clearer air lower, turned round and went home. It worked for me.
(Oh, and I was considerably lower than the forecast cloud base, in the climb, just after taking off.)
Look straight down - at least a glance!
My own experience of one such event, forward vision was lost but the ground was feintly visible straight down. Under these circumstances it would seem reasonable to slow and descend. If there is any ground contact it seems sensible to not lose it.
In this instance I found clearer air lower, turned round and went home. It worked for me.
(Oh, and I was considerably lower than the forecast cloud base, in the climb, just after taking off.)
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Gaseous
As some others have mentioned on this thread, many pilots do not have any significant instrument training or experience and may therefore find themselves experiencing "the leans" as soon as they inadvertently enter cloud. Looking down and finding a "hole" below you may be very well, but the simple act of moving your head around when in cloud could precipitate a serious case of "the leans" and help you to reach the ground far quicker than you had intended!!
ConwayB
In an ideal world there should indeed not be. "Good" pilots plan everything so they "never" get into situations that they are not expecting........... I don't think so!!
Unfortunately, a large number of private pilots, and quite a few "professional" pilots have little or no instrument training due to high training costs, lack of interest and many other reasons. These are the guys that generally find themselves "inadvertently" entering IMC and struggling ......... This often occurs due to perceived pressure to complete the flight. Your passengers are pushing you to get there - you've got "gohomeitis" or "pressonitis" - your boss wants you to do the job as the client is "very important" etc etc.....
Nothing is more important than keeping yourself and all others about you safe. So, think very carefully before you set off and, if in doubt - DON'T go!
My own experience of one such event, forward vision was lost but the ground was feintly visible straight down. Under these circumstances it would seem reasonable to slow and descend. If there is any ground contact it seems sensible to not lose it.
ConwayB
There should be no such thing as Inadvertant IMC.
Unfortunately, a large number of private pilots, and quite a few "professional" pilots have little or no instrument training due to high training costs, lack of interest and many other reasons. These are the guys that generally find themselves "inadvertently" entering IMC and struggling ......... This often occurs due to perceived pressure to complete the flight. Your passengers are pushing you to get there - you've got "gohomeitis" or "pressonitis" - your boss wants you to do the job as the client is "very important" etc etc.....
Nothing is more important than keeping yourself and all others about you safe. So, think very carefully before you set off and, if in doubt - DON'T go!
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Aw........ come on guys. It is easy to sit back here typing away our collective knowledge into this thread and people saying you should do this and should do that.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE IN THE AIR AND WE HAVE ALL HAD OUR SCARES! Learn from them and pass this onto our fellow pilots.
As for this question (based on a pilot with no IR training) - don't go into cloud! SIMPLE.
If you do, try and remember back to this thread (but I guarantee you won't remember squat when the pucker factor gets up high enough).
Go out with an instructor and go under the hood to see what it is really like and I'll guarantee you will remember the words - "Don't go into cloud"
End of sermon.
WE ALL KNOW WHAT IT IS LIKE IN THE AIR AND WE HAVE ALL HAD OUR SCARES! Learn from them and pass this onto our fellow pilots.
As for this question (based on a pilot with no IR training) - don't go into cloud! SIMPLE.
If you do, try and remember back to this thread (but I guarantee you won't remember squat when the pucker factor gets up high enough).
Go out with an instructor and go under the hood to see what it is really like and I'll guarantee you will remember the words - "Don't go into cloud"
End of sermon.
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This thread is not about "do not enter IMC", it is about "how do I survive IMC".
Most accidents in IMC are controlled flight into terrain. If you cannot leave IMC almost immediately, DO NOT FLY BELOW A SAVE ALTITUDE unless performing an instrument approach.
And while flying in IMC in helicopters, KEEP FORWARD SPEED for normal cruise. This will stabilize the aircraft.
Most accidents in IMC are controlled flight into terrain. If you cannot leave IMC almost immediately, DO NOT FLY BELOW A SAVE ALTITUDE unless performing an instrument approach.
And while flying in IMC in helicopters, KEEP FORWARD SPEED for normal cruise. This will stabilize the aircraft.
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As has been pointed out several times, the original post was about "what to do if...." There has been lots of good advice posted in response and all of it relevant.
I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC.
IMHO it should be renamed "Negligent Flying" and investigated in the same way as, eg. inadvertant entry into controlled airspace.
Maybe I am missing something, and if so, I would be very keen to hear of any circumstances in GA helicopter ops where "inadvertant IMC" should not be renamed "negligent flying."
I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC.
IMHO it should be renamed "Negligent Flying" and investigated in the same way as, eg. inadvertant entry into controlled airspace.
Maybe I am missing something, and if so, I would be very keen to hear of any circumstances in GA helicopter ops where "inadvertant IMC" should not be renamed "negligent flying."
Avoid imitations
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Hihover;
"I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC."
I think you are possibly referring to myself. At the time I was instrument rated and flying an IFR aircraft with an autopilot on a military operational conversion unit. That isn't quite the same as a low hours PPL student flying by himself in an unstabilised helicopter, possibly without full instrumentation. At the end of a military student's flying training in those circumstances he has to be allowed to stretch the limits a little - one of the students was actually a second tourist who should have known better; he left the helicopter world not too long after for the airlines because by his own admission, he didn't feel up to the rigours of low level military flying. I was caught out on a couple of occasions by those students doing the unexpected when faced with bad weather, my error I admit. It was a long time ago (almost 20 years) and with the benefit of more experience I wouldn't be caught again.
In the commercial world also, any helicopter pilot can quite often be pressed to stretch the VFR limits a little - there lies the great danger if the pilot doesn't have an IFR option and hasn't paid sufficient attention to it. The trick is knowing when to change the plan and when to say enough.
With regard to your proposal to have pilots investigated for going inadvertently IMC - how would you police that, or even catch them? It would quite possibly result in pilots doing ANYTHING to regain VMC, possibly with an increased likelihood of doing something stupid. It would only be spiteful in any event, as a low-time pilot in an unstabilised aircraft who goes inadvertent IMC tends to make his own punishment.
"I am concerned, however, at the level of acceptance that "inadvertant IMC" is just something that we as pilots have to deal with. We even have an experienced instructor admitting to inadvertant entry twice - but it was his student's fault!!! I cannot think of any circumstances in a helicopter, GA, by day, that mitigate an inadvertant entry into IMC."
I think you are possibly referring to myself. At the time I was instrument rated and flying an IFR aircraft with an autopilot on a military operational conversion unit. That isn't quite the same as a low hours PPL student flying by himself in an unstabilised helicopter, possibly without full instrumentation. At the end of a military student's flying training in those circumstances he has to be allowed to stretch the limits a little - one of the students was actually a second tourist who should have known better; he left the helicopter world not too long after for the airlines because by his own admission, he didn't feel up to the rigours of low level military flying. I was caught out on a couple of occasions by those students doing the unexpected when faced with bad weather, my error I admit. It was a long time ago (almost 20 years) and with the benefit of more experience I wouldn't be caught again.
In the commercial world also, any helicopter pilot can quite often be pressed to stretch the VFR limits a little - there lies the great danger if the pilot doesn't have an IFR option and hasn't paid sufficient attention to it. The trick is knowing when to change the plan and when to say enough.
With regard to your proposal to have pilots investigated for going inadvertently IMC - how would you police that, or even catch them? It would quite possibly result in pilots doing ANYTHING to regain VMC, possibly with an increased likelihood of doing something stupid. It would only be spiteful in any event, as a low-time pilot in an unstabilised aircraft who goes inadvertent IMC tends to make his own punishment.
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Shy Torque,
There is quite a difference between inadvertant IMC and taking the option of an IFR recovery - as I know you are aware. It sounds to me that in your particular cases, you were caught out and opted for the latter, which, based on your experience and capabilies, was an option that you had probably already considered given that you were being "invited" to fly in poor weather to get the job done.
Both in military aviation and commercial, I have found myself making similar decisions in order to get the job done. The decisions were thought through and executed in the knowledge that there was a plan.
My point is simply that I cannot see any circumstances in a GA helicopter where a pilot bumbles into cloud (unplanned, not thought through), by day, and should not be questioned about the circumstances that led to the bumble!
I take your points about the difficulty in policing inadvertant IMC/negligent flying and the potential for the pilot to go to any length to regain VMC, nonetheless, the message I read from this thread is that inadvertant IMC happens (not plan B recoveries) and is an inherrent risk associated with flying. It isn't an inherrent risk, it's negligence. How do we get that message across without policing?
There is quite a difference between inadvertant IMC and taking the option of an IFR recovery - as I know you are aware. It sounds to me that in your particular cases, you were caught out and opted for the latter, which, based on your experience and capabilies, was an option that you had probably already considered given that you were being "invited" to fly in poor weather to get the job done.
Both in military aviation and commercial, I have found myself making similar decisions in order to get the job done. The decisions were thought through and executed in the knowledge that there was a plan.
My point is simply that I cannot see any circumstances in a GA helicopter where a pilot bumbles into cloud (unplanned, not thought through), by day, and should not be questioned about the circumstances that led to the bumble!
I take your points about the difficulty in policing inadvertant IMC/negligent flying and the potential for the pilot to go to any length to regain VMC, nonetheless, the message I read from this thread is that inadvertant IMC happens (not plan B recoveries) and is an inherrent risk associated with flying. It isn't an inherrent risk, it's negligence. How do we get that message across without policing?
Avoid imitations
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I think the accident reports speak loudly enough and Darwin's theory seems to hold true enough.
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Well, Darwin's theory may well tidy up some loose ends, however, if the accident reports spoke loudly enough, we would not be having this discussion.
I seem to remember that, as a military pilot, even with an instrument rating, I was not allowed within 200 feet of the cloudbase unless I had a good reason. Now, I can't remember if that was a guideline from the old and bold or if it was a rule. Either way, it sounds like good sense to me.
I seem to remember that, as a military pilot, even with an instrument rating, I was not allowed within 200 feet of the cloudbase unless I had a good reason. Now, I can't remember if that was a guideline from the old and bold or if it was a rule. Either way, it sounds like good sense to me.
