Ditching a helicopter: (incl pictures)
Shy,
I'm one of those sad blokes who'd say that once was enough! I can remember every last terror-filled red-helmet-wearing second of every dunker run I ever did, from the first in Vernon in 1976 to the last not too long ago. Until the advent of STASS I was able to control the panic long enough to endure each of the sessions - knowing that I'd have to wait between 1 and 3 days for the inevitable sudden dump of brine from the sinuses at predictably inopportune moments.
STASS finally did my head in. I could hyperventilate fast enough to suck one of those ******s dry in 20 secs flat. Dunker trips became sheer purgatory - something to be marked in blood-red ink on the planner.
I agree that the dunker was essential training, but I reckon the first session lasted me a full flying career; the remainder only served to make me miserable at grimly predictable intervals.
I now fly as far from the sea as I can manage, and despite the best efforts of the water authorities in the W Mids I reckon I could probably get out and walk over most of the river/reservoir surfaces hereabouts (shades of the river in Ankh Morpork).
Top advice on ditching otherwise, folks. I also used to brief the preference for power-on ditchings (eg single HYD fail with incipient loss of the remaining system) where the heli hovered to drop crew/pax/dinghy then moved downwind to ditch. Crew/pax boarded raft then brought sea-anchor inboard and drifted onto pilot's position.
I'm one of those sad blokes who'd say that once was enough! I can remember every last terror-filled red-helmet-wearing second of every dunker run I ever did, from the first in Vernon in 1976 to the last not too long ago. Until the advent of STASS I was able to control the panic long enough to endure each of the sessions - knowing that I'd have to wait between 1 and 3 days for the inevitable sudden dump of brine from the sinuses at predictably inopportune moments.
STASS finally did my head in. I could hyperventilate fast enough to suck one of those ******s dry in 20 secs flat. Dunker trips became sheer purgatory - something to be marked in blood-red ink on the planner.
I agree that the dunker was essential training, but I reckon the first session lasted me a full flying career; the remainder only served to make me miserable at grimly predictable intervals.
I now fly as far from the sea as I can manage, and despite the best efforts of the water authorities in the W Mids I reckon I could probably get out and walk over most of the river/reservoir surfaces hereabouts (shades of the river in Ankh Morpork).
Top advice on ditching otherwise, folks. I also used to brief the preference for power-on ditchings (eg single HYD fail with incipient loss of the remaining system) where the heli hovered to drop crew/pax/dinghy then moved downwind to ditch. Crew/pax boarded raft then brought sea-anchor inboard and drifted onto pilot's position.
Nick forgot one important point in his well laid out ditching procedure....."The Captain shall be the last person out of the aircraft." My usual briefing concludes with that final bit of information...closely followed by the statement ....."and If I pass you on the way out....consider yourself promoted to Captain!"
On a serious note....always keep in mind that there may be more than one way out....or that your primary exit may not be open.
I usually brief my copilot to please to remember to jettison his door just prior to contact with the water.....it might be a deviation from the standard procedure....but I would much prefer to have one large open exit for sure ...than have to get two pilots out the itty bitty windows on a Bell 212. I can assure you I will discard that sorry invention of Bell's if I am the non-handling pilot. By the time you strap on all the Heed Bottles, Life Jackets, Head sets....and other items ....combined with my growing girth.....the thought of squirming out one of those tiny windows seems challenging. All the radio calls, altitude calls, checklist readouts and such....don't mean a thing if you do not exit the aircraft. More people drown in less than four feet depth of water.....measured from the top of aircraft floats to the top of the cabin ceiling.....when inverted.....just because they did not find a way out when the aircraft rolled over.
Doing the dunker training is nice....but one needs to carry that over to the actual aircraft being flown....to develop a mindset and habit pattern to fall back on in times of dire stress. You do for real...what you do in training.
On a serious note....always keep in mind that there may be more than one way out....or that your primary exit may not be open.
I usually brief my copilot to please to remember to jettison his door just prior to contact with the water.....it might be a deviation from the standard procedure....but I would much prefer to have one large open exit for sure ...than have to get two pilots out the itty bitty windows on a Bell 212. I can assure you I will discard that sorry invention of Bell's if I am the non-handling pilot. By the time you strap on all the Heed Bottles, Life Jackets, Head sets....and other items ....combined with my growing girth.....the thought of squirming out one of those tiny windows seems challenging. All the radio calls, altitude calls, checklist readouts and such....don't mean a thing if you do not exit the aircraft. More people drown in less than four feet depth of water.....measured from the top of aircraft floats to the top of the cabin ceiling.....when inverted.....just because they did not find a way out when the aircraft rolled over.
Doing the dunker training is nice....but one needs to carry that over to the actual aircraft being flown....to develop a mindset and habit pattern to fall back on in times of dire stress. You do for real...what you do in training.
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I would be very careful when directing someone to jettison a front door on a Bell medium while still in flight. A Canadian registered 212 was destroyed (and all onboard were killed) in the Maldives, due inpart by the copilot jettisonning his door too soon.
When briefing any passengers who may be riding up front (forestry officials), I always caution them about when to jettison the door in the event of a ditching. I tell them to wait for water contact, that way I ensure that there is no confusion.
Cheers
Randy_G
When briefing any passengers who may be riding up front (forestry officials), I always caution them about when to jettison the door in the event of a ditching. I tell them to wait for water contact, that way I ensure that there is no confusion.
Cheers
Randy_G
The advice was "just before water contact".....I guess I could have been even more specific....and said after all forward movement....or something...but assume and rightly I believe...that just before contact... even if at 100 knots....it doesn't matter what happens. This presupposes an uncontrolled or power off type ditching...otherwise one has plenty of time to discuss what procedures will be used. This brief is for that event when all goes wrong and you find yourself heading for Neptune's Locker without a formal invite.....and survival becomes the issue and not semantics. For example....remember the video of the H-3 spinning across and off the deck of the frigate that Nick provided us a while back......at some point popping the emergency exits and worrying about if they wind up in the moving bits becomes the least of your concerns. That is the situation I discuss with my Co.....it is more a survival procedure rather than an emergency drill. Controlled ditchings are quite a different thing from uncontrolled or uncommanded ditchings.....one is an emergency procedure...the other is a crash. When I am crashing....all the rules are out the window.....except one....survive however possible.
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another 2 cents,
R-44 transmisions don´t move - confirmed. I saw one where they tried to "ditch" into trees. The ship disintegrated (the only thing in one piece and untouched was the T/R, anything else was "affected"
) However the engine and transmission stayed together, although a little twisted due to the frame getting his share. It was pretty violent ( Frozen student, the instructor couldn´t get the student to loosen his grip, so they where fighting over control - although subconsciously [I flew with the student before and after, if I would say, whisper, yell "I have control" he would let go immediately.], taking of from a river bed, the helo turned right and rolled over (already in the air!! and went into the trees like that (half upside down) - Robinsons are tough mothers!!
After about 3000hrs on tunaboats, I saw some helos in the water and heard of others: They always stay afloat (no helis without floats on tunaboats...), but most times they roll over because of the sea - total loss once immersed in salt water....
One pilot got killed - drowned - in a old B-47 - just a belly strap. no shoulder-harrness, got knocked out - helo upside down, but floating...
As a result I don´t like to fly over water without floats.
If I had to go in without [floats], I would take the machine to water contact or a foot above and keep pulling the collective until the rotor stalls. At this point most off the inertia is gone.....I´d try to keep it level all the time. Rolling is just disorienting...
I hope I never need to check this one out in a real situation! (But it helps to "plan" a course of action in your mind now and then.....
In my job we do tourist flights along the Panama-Canal. Although we always wear life jackets (so do the passengers), we do not use floats on most helicopters (majority of the ride over land...) however as for most of the ride there are no emergency landing spots on land, I rather take my chance at the shores of the Canal, than going into up to 200ft trees!!
3top
R-44 transmisions don´t move - confirmed. I saw one where they tried to "ditch" into trees. The ship disintegrated (the only thing in one piece and untouched was the T/R, anything else was "affected"
) However the engine and transmission stayed together, although a little twisted due to the frame getting his share. It was pretty violent ( Frozen student, the instructor couldn´t get the student to loosen his grip, so they where fighting over control - although subconsciously [I flew with the student before and after, if I would say, whisper, yell "I have control" he would let go immediately.], taking of from a river bed, the helo turned right and rolled over (already in the air!! and went into the trees like that (half upside down) - Robinsons are tough mothers!!After about 3000hrs on tunaboats, I saw some helos in the water and heard of others: They always stay afloat (no helis without floats on tunaboats...), but most times they roll over because of the sea - total loss once immersed in salt water....
One pilot got killed - drowned - in a old B-47 - just a belly strap. no shoulder-harrness, got knocked out - helo upside down, but floating...
As a result I don´t like to fly over water without floats.
If I had to go in without [floats], I would take the machine to water contact or a foot above and keep pulling the collective until the rotor stalls. At this point most off the inertia is gone.....I´d try to keep it level all the time. Rolling is just disorienting...
I hope I never need to check this one out in a real situation! (But it helps to "plan" a course of action in your mind now and then.....
In my job we do tourist flights along the Panama-Canal. Although we always wear life jackets (so do the passengers), we do not use floats on most helicopters (majority of the ride over land...) however as for most of the ride there are no emergency landing spots on land, I rather take my chance at the shores of the Canal, than going into up to 200ft trees!!
3top
Avoid imitations
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Thud,
I know what you mean about the Dunker, some folks never get used to it. One of our largest pilots came out still wearing the seat harness, complete with bent fixing bolts and penny washers.....he just about killed everyone else "on board" fighting his way out!
I know what you mean about the Dunker, some folks never get used to it. One of our largest pilots came out still wearing the seat harness, complete with bent fixing bolts and penny washers.....he just about killed everyone else "on board" fighting his way out!
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Ditching - which way to roll?
Im not a helicopter pilot but love everything about helicopters, I just had to say this was a real interesting topic and I enjoyed reading it.
Mikhar
Cheers!
Mikhar
Cheers!
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Survive???
Whilst we would all like to think that we will be able to control the machine once on the water, it will all of a sudden be a boat [for a short time anyway]....and a top heavy boat as well. And boats arn't designed that way..... even ships capsize.
Stats will show that a rollover is the likely outcome....just reviewing the Oz history......very likely.
Jettisoning your doors windows etc before touch down....Not this soon to be wet duck.....My concern would be to get the boat where I want it, not to worry about my flying door and my still revolving tailrotor!!....I can recall a Police Twin in NSW that had a cowl enter the main disc...crash!!
Good quality recurrent HUET training will highlight most traps.......and seat belts MUST be on [and ontight]....2 years max.
Interesting comments on STASS/HEEDS/AIR POCKET [or similar]......whilst the Air Pocket uses the rebreathing system and is relatively safe/idiot proof........the others certainly need a training course.
Despite the advertising blurb on HEEDS/STASS...I have sucked the bottle dry in 30 secounds under pressure....don't bank on the 2 minutes quoted around the traps.
Above all........keep your feathers dry.....
Stats will show that a rollover is the likely outcome....just reviewing the Oz history......very likely.
Jettisoning your doors windows etc before touch down....Not this soon to be wet duck.....My concern would be to get the boat where I want it, not to worry about my flying door and my still revolving tailrotor!!....I can recall a Police Twin in NSW that had a cowl enter the main disc...crash!!
Good quality recurrent HUET training will highlight most traps.......and seat belts MUST be on [and ontight]....2 years max.
Interesting comments on STASS/HEEDS/AIR POCKET [or similar]......whilst the Air Pocket uses the rebreathing system and is relatively safe/idiot proof........the others certainly need a training course.
Despite the advertising blurb on HEEDS/STASS...I have sucked the bottle dry in 30 secounds under pressure....don't bank on the 2 minutes quoted around the traps.
Above all........keep your feathers dry.....
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Ditching
A really good useful thread - many thanks to you all. I've printed the whole thing off as it makes a very useful discussion document and thought provoker.
Life rafts?
One further question if this thread is still active. I privately own an R44 which I use for a bit of business travel but much more for simply having fun.
I cross water in it quite a lot. The channel to France, The Isle of Man, the Med to Majorca and have taken it across to Holland & Germany by the longer sea routes. It does not have floats! However I always wear an immersion suit and I have one for a passenger, We always wear life jackets over the suits and I carry a 6 man raft in the back. I think the raft is probably most useful psycologically as I am never sure that in a emergency we would be able to get it out and to manage it. What do you think? What is the best procedure for the raft and barring floats is there anything else I should have to increase my and my passengers safety.
Thanks.
Life rafts?
One further question if this thread is still active. I privately own an R44 which I use for a bit of business travel but much more for simply having fun.
I cross water in it quite a lot. The channel to France, The Isle of Man, the Med to Majorca and have taken it across to Holland & Germany by the longer sea routes. It does not have floats! However I always wear an immersion suit and I have one for a passenger, We always wear life jackets over the suits and I carry a 6 man raft in the back. I think the raft is probably most useful psycologically as I am never sure that in a emergency we would be able to get it out and to manage it. What do you think? What is the best procedure for the raft and barring floats is there anything else I should have to increase my and my passengers safety.
Thanks.
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Baily,
With those distances over cold water, I would definitely invest in pop out floats.
When I used to ferry 206s across the Bass Strait, ( nearly as bad as the North Sea), without floats, the liferaft sat on the back seat where it was highly unlikely the front crew could reach it if we were sinking. I bought 2 single seat liferafts which we slipped onto our belts, so that if we had to jump out quickly the liferafts weren't forgotten and came with us.
With those distances over cold water, I would definitely invest in pop out floats.
When I used to ferry 206s across the Bass Strait, ( nearly as bad as the North Sea), without floats, the liferaft sat on the back seat where it was highly unlikely the front crew could reach it if we were sinking. I bought 2 single seat liferafts which we slipped onto our belts, so that if we had to jump out quickly the liferafts weren't forgotten and came with us.
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life rafts
Well I wouldnt get rid of the life raft because there are some situations where you could do a pwr on ditch. Passenger could jump out with the raft as you hover. I dont know stats very well, but rescue times increase dramatically when rafts are used because of visibility.
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Whole new can of worms now.......
Look at the scenerio in sequence......
A problem.......ditch
Escape............HUET / HEEDS Training
Survive 1............Cold Water Suit.....Yes as uncomfortable as they are.
Survive 2..........Good quality dual chambered jackets.....
Survive 3..........Individual good quality raft[s]....2 smaller are better than one larger.
Rescue 1........407 Sat Beacon...or at least a 123.5/243 basic beacon.
Rescue 2....Flares, Heliograph, Water Dye.....
Rescue 3....A litre bottle of fine single malt scotch.
[Thats for the SAR crew that will have to winch you out after taking such an aircraft across that streatch of water....ggrrr]
A problem.......ditch
Escape............HUET / HEEDS Training
Survive 1............Cold Water Suit.....Yes as uncomfortable as they are.
Survive 2..........Good quality dual chambered jackets.....
Survive 3..........Individual good quality raft[s]....2 smaller are better than one larger.
Rescue 1........407 Sat Beacon...or at least a 123.5/243 basic beacon.
Rescue 2....Flares, Heliograph, Water Dye.....
Rescue 3....A litre bottle of fine single malt scotch.
[Thats for the SAR crew that will have to winch you out after taking such an aircraft across that streatch of water....ggrrr]
Cool as a moosp
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Dunkers?
As a private helicopter flyer operating near and over water I would like to do a dunk course. Anybody know of a commercially available dunker in Asia (HKG/SIN/KUL/TPE)?
I hear there is one in SIN for the oilies but I believe you have to be part of the oil industry to attend a course. Any info?
Hoping to Plunge.
As a private helicopter flyer operating near and over water I would like to do a dunk course. Anybody know of a commercially available dunker in Asia (HKG/SIN/KUL/TPE)?
I hear there is one in SIN for the oilies but I believe you have to be part of the oil industry to attend a course. Any info?
Hoping to Plunge.
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Private dunking
MOOSP: Try calling the Hong Kong Government Flying Service (sorry, I don't have any contact details, but there is a website). Their pilots do regular 'dunkers' - in SIN, I think - and you may be able to 'buy a seat' on a routine course.
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A few points further to Baily's post concerning over water flight without floats in the R44.
I did quite a few 50nm plus over water trips in my single Squirrel, which did not have floats either. Easy to say one should have them, but in the end of course there are cost, payload, speed, range issues to balance in deciding where the inevitable compromise lies.
I remember talking to some Castle Air guys a few years ago who ditched a non-floated 206 in the Channel. One clear message was that you would never get your liferaft out of a stored position (ie like back seat), so I used to fly with a compact 4 man type attached to my waist with a belt. In the Squirrel of course you've got space beside the seat and big doors. I reckon that this way my raft would come out with me.
Liferaft needs to be compact to do this - can't see much point in a bulky 6 man raft in a 4 seat R44, particularly as it will compromise having it available at all.
Wearing a modern immersion suit was not too inconvenient, life jacket of course, and I would also hang an EPERB around my neck. Someone mentioned bubbles on ditching - interestingly that I found was the biggest problem on the dunker test so I kept a pair of swimming goggles loosely around my neck too!
Finally I would make very sure I kept to a route someone knew and in RT contact, with the ability to give a position virtually instaneously if it all went quiet.
Well that's the theory anyway. No doubt all togged up you do feel more confident and so fly better too. Reckon I'd get out of out of the aircraft OK which of course would be lost - as a floated one probably would too. Whilst one or two sensible pax might make it out I believe the chances are pretty poor for children or a full load so would avoid taking this.
Having said all that, I now fly a twin and must say, whether at night or over water, I feel a lot more comfortable! The stats may suggest you're little better off, but that doesn't take into account the significantly more relaxed cockpit environment of knowing you've got two of more than just engines!
Great use of the forum. Any stories of actual ditching experience? That's where we'll all learn most.
I did quite a few 50nm plus over water trips in my single Squirrel, which did not have floats either. Easy to say one should have them, but in the end of course there are cost, payload, speed, range issues to balance in deciding where the inevitable compromise lies.
I remember talking to some Castle Air guys a few years ago who ditched a non-floated 206 in the Channel. One clear message was that you would never get your liferaft out of a stored position (ie like back seat), so I used to fly with a compact 4 man type attached to my waist with a belt. In the Squirrel of course you've got space beside the seat and big doors. I reckon that this way my raft would come out with me.
Liferaft needs to be compact to do this - can't see much point in a bulky 6 man raft in a 4 seat R44, particularly as it will compromise having it available at all.
Wearing a modern immersion suit was not too inconvenient, life jacket of course, and I would also hang an EPERB around my neck. Someone mentioned bubbles on ditching - interestingly that I found was the biggest problem on the dunker test so I kept a pair of swimming goggles loosely around my neck too!
Finally I would make very sure I kept to a route someone knew and in RT contact, with the ability to give a position virtually instaneously if it all went quiet.
Well that's the theory anyway. No doubt all togged up you do feel more confident and so fly better too. Reckon I'd get out of out of the aircraft OK which of course would be lost - as a floated one probably would too. Whilst one or two sensible pax might make it out I believe the chances are pretty poor for children or a full load so would avoid taking this.
Having said all that, I now fly a twin and must say, whether at night or over water, I feel a lot more comfortable! The stats may suggest you're little better off, but that doesn't take into account the significantly more relaxed cockpit environment of knowing you've got two of more than just engines!
Great use of the forum. Any stories of actual ditching experience? That's where we'll all learn most.
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Rafts and other things
Many thanks again.
I'd not thought of individual rafts, that sounds like a very good idea. I already have an EPIRB stored in a pocket in the immersion suit and I have done a very useful (but unpleasant - never did like getting my head underwater) dunker course at southampton. Floats would be nice but are not practical to retrofit on an early (non hydraulic) R44.
I'm now going to boil down all I've learnt from this thread into some clear intructions to myself for overwater flying and to enable me to give good briefings to any passangers.
I'd not thought of individual rafts, that sounds like a very good idea. I already have an EPIRB stored in a pocket in the immersion suit and I have done a very useful (but unpleasant - never did like getting my head underwater) dunker course at southampton. Floats would be nice but are not practical to retrofit on an early (non hydraulic) R44.
I'm now going to boil down all I've learnt from this thread into some clear intructions to myself for overwater flying and to enable me to give good briefings to any passangers.
Cool as a moosp
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ppng
Thanks for the idea. I know that GFS use the SIN facility. I'll give them a bell and see if they would consider a paying guest on one of their forays to Lion City.
Thanks for the idea. I know that GFS use the SIN facility. I'll give them a bell and see if they would consider a paying guest on one of their forays to Lion City.