EC120 Down near Canberra
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Australia
EC120 Down near Canberra
G'day All,
A little birdie told me that a nice shiny new EC120 isn't so nice any more after it went down near Canberra the other day. All aboard escaped without injury, with the pilot claiming "engine failure". Very lucky indeed, as the machine appears to be a write off!!
Cheers,
MPT
A little birdie told me that a nice shiny new EC120 isn't so nice any more after it went down near Canberra the other day. All aboard escaped without injury, with the pilot claiming "engine failure". Very lucky indeed, as the machine appears to be a write off!!
Cheers,
MPT
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 149
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From: Australia
G'day bladebanger,
My sources tell me that it was being flown by its owner JS, a well known Canberra businessman. I guess the whizz bang computer will be able to tell us the details of the "engine failure".
Cheers,
MPT
(edited to fix finger trouble)
My sources tell me that it was being flown by its owner JS, a well known Canberra businessman. I guess the whizz bang computer will be able to tell us the details of the "engine failure".
Cheers,
MPT
(edited to fix finger trouble)
Last edited by MPT; 18th May 2005 at 07:21.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
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From: the cockpit
MPT,
I guess by the inverted commas over "engine failure" that there is something more to the story?
This would be the first engine failure in a EC120 in Oz, have there been that many with this new tech engine and it's trend monitoring?
I ask here with a view to seeing if, and when, engines might be reliable enough for single engine IFR.
I guess by the inverted commas over "engine failure" that there is something more to the story?
This would be the first engine failure in a EC120 in Oz, have there been that many with this new tech engine and it's trend monitoring?
I ask here with a view to seeing if, and when, engines might be reliable enough for single engine IFR.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 149
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From: Australia
G'day helmet fire,
Wouldn't like to comment further on the "engine failure" until the download's completed and analysed. As a matter of interest, which machine would be used for the IFR ops? I understood that the EC120 was VFR only.
Cheers,
MPT
Wouldn't like to comment further on the "engine failure" until the download's completed and analysed. As a matter of interest, which machine would be used for the IFR ops? I understood that the EC120 was VFR only.
Cheers,
MPT
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 1
From: the cockpit
MPT,
I am not considering using one, I am just intrested in the future prospects. The Koala owned by CareFlight haas an autopilot, but only one donk, and there is an NZ B3 squirrel that was made IFR with an autopilot and extra hydraulic pack at Sydney EC.
I am not considering using one, I am just intrested in the future prospects. The Koala owned by CareFlight haas an autopilot, but only one donk, and there is an NZ B3 squirrel that was made IFR with an autopilot and extra hydraulic pack at Sydney EC.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 149
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From: Australia
helmet fire / widgeon,
Interesting discussion on single engined IFR looming here! I remember some mods being done on the ADF squirrels in Canberra. Didn't they modify the hydraulics to enable the "less muscled" to fly them after a couple of accidents during hydraulics off training?
I know of one 206B and one 206L IFR ships, and I had heard of the kiwi AS350 one. Are there any plans to offer an IFR Koala or 407? Would the addition of IFR capabilities to singles be useful to the EMS operators currently utilising these types with the possibility of NVG's becoming available in the near future?
Cheers,
MPT
Interesting discussion on single engined IFR looming here! I remember some mods being done on the ADF squirrels in Canberra. Didn't they modify the hydraulics to enable the "less muscled" to fly them after a couple of accidents during hydraulics off training?
I know of one 206B and one 206L IFR ships, and I had heard of the kiwi AS350 one. Are there any plans to offer an IFR Koala or 407? Would the addition of IFR capabilities to singles be useful to the EMS operators currently utilising these types with the possibility of NVG's becoming available in the near future?
Cheers,
MPT
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
Likes: 1
From: the cockpit
Dont know about the second generator. The ADF Squirrels were AUW weight restricted following upgrade to BA wieghts and a HYD off bingle. I think the intent of Augusta was two fold: make the Koala as similar as possible as the twins to save on components, and set the Koala up way in front of any competition for certification if SE IFR became a reality in the US.
MPT, NVG is no substitute for IFR in any sense of the usage, nor is inadvertent IMC more likely on NVG, it is less likely. That said, an autopilot system was a reccomendation from the NVFR Mackay accident investigation, even though they identified no conclusive cause. Additionally, an autopilot is an excellent risk mitigation tool for night EMS and should be encouraged. As should NVG.
Back to the 120: anyone know of other engine failures in this type?
MPT, NVG is no substitute for IFR in any sense of the usage, nor is inadvertent IMC more likely on NVG, it is less likely. That said, an autopilot system was a reccomendation from the NVFR Mackay accident investigation, even though they identified no conclusive cause. Additionally, an autopilot is an excellent risk mitigation tool for night EMS and should be encouraged. As should NVG.
Back to the 120: anyone know of other engine failures in this type?
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: Downeast
There we are in the middle of the night...over hostile terrain...IFR in our Bell 206.....clouds right down into the tree tops....
OH MY! Just woke up....it was all just a very bad dream! Must lay off the Anchovie Sandwiches!
You can take all your statistics about engine failures....and stick'em Sir....the ramifications of a single donk dying in those conditions suggest to me that some things are best left alone. (...and yes...I have flown a Cessna 208 Caravan IFR over hostile terrain IFR....)and had an anxiety attack in the middle of it one night. Bore sighting the only engine on that thing....and seeing the tippy tops of the "Alps-like" mountains around Levenworth, Washington poking up out of the clouds into the moonlit sky brought home what engine failures are all about. I have sinned too much to rely upon Heavenly Intervention to allow many exposures like that.
One man's opinion
OH MY! Just woke up....it was all just a very bad dream! Must lay off the Anchovie Sandwiches!
You can take all your statistics about engine failures....and stick'em Sir....the ramifications of a single donk dying in those conditions suggest to me that some things are best left alone. (...and yes...I have flown a Cessna 208 Caravan IFR over hostile terrain IFR....)and had an anxiety attack in the middle of it one night. Bore sighting the only engine on that thing....and seeing the tippy tops of the "Alps-like" mountains around Levenworth, Washington poking up out of the clouds into the moonlit sky brought home what engine failures are all about. I have sinned too much to rely upon Heavenly Intervention to allow many exposures like that.
One man's opinion
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,084
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From: the cockpit
Appologies eagle.
SASless, I hear you, though I did mine in a Huey not a 206. Give me two every time!!!
zebeedee, your marine pilot example is indicative of a comment I made on the IFR Training confusion thread: what is legal Vs best practice? We all have a different view of best practice dont we?
and yes: burn me at the stake INADVERTANT IMC IS LESS LIKELY WITH NVG. And you can quote me!
SASless, I hear you, though I did mine in a Huey not a 206. Give me two every time!!!
zebeedee, your marine pilot example is indicative of a comment I made on the IFR Training confusion thread: what is legal Vs best practice? We all have a different view of best practice dont we?
and yes: burn me at the stake INADVERTANT IMC IS LESS LIKELY WITH NVG. And you can quote me!
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: The Dark Side
I'm with HF - my limited experience of NVG shows that, under certain circumstances, NVG can allow you to see cloud B4 you enter it. As a day/night VFR EMS pilot I have gone inadvertant IMC a couple of times - I would like to have seen these cloud banks and had some chance of avoiding entering them.
BTW I remain a huge fan of multi-engine ifr helos.
gags e86
BTW I remain a huge fan of multi-engine ifr helos.
gags e86
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 149
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From: Australia
G'day All,
Could someone explain to me the difference between an autopilot and a SAS. I've flown a 206 with a steam powered autopilot (there are a couple of NVFR machines around with them fitted) a while ago. Is that classed as an autopilot under IFR/NVFR MPT regulations?
Cheers,
MPT
Could someone explain to me the difference between an autopilot and a SAS. I've flown a 206 with a steam powered autopilot (there are a couple of NVFR machines around with them fitted) a while ago. Is that classed as an autopilot under IFR/NVFR MPT regulations?
Cheers,
MPT
Joined: Oct 1999
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 7,373
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From: Den Haag
In simple terms, a SAS will give you short term rate damping but no long term attitude hold. A basic AP will give you long term Attitude retention e.g. you deflect the cyclic aft to raise the nose 10 degrees, then release it, and the a/c will return to the original pitch attitude.
A more sophisticated AP will give you 'outer loop', or 'upper mode' functions whereby it will couple to external references, such as Altitude, IAS, HDG, NAV and/or ILS (the number of discretes will depend on the sophistication of the AP). If very sophisticated, it will have full control of all 4 control axes and may allow transitions to the hover and other such SAR functions.
A more sophisticated AP will give you 'outer loop', or 'upper mode' functions whereby it will couple to external references, such as Altitude, IAS, HDG, NAV and/or ILS (the number of discretes will depend on the sophistication of the AP). If very sophisticated, it will have full control of all 4 control axes and may allow transitions to the hover and other such SAR functions.
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: New South Wales
"I am also familiar with how this has been done successfully from Port Hedland (WA) for more than 20 years without serious incident. Well done to everyone in that task!"
Um, B206 into the water at night a few years back (about 5 I think but happy to be corrected).
Um, B206 into the water at night a few years back (about 5 I think but happy to be corrected).
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: topspot
NVG's and Stuff
Thought I might chime in on this one fellas since I have some "time up" in this department.
NVG/NVD offers an increased capability below LSALT at night and that is gold, however as I have shown to many a trainee, this is a double edged sword. Yes you can see the cloud banks and manouvre to avoid them but you can also find yourself thinking that what you are seeing is not too bad or improving and then suddenly without too much warning you are in IMC without too much trouble. Now some of you may think, no probs If I get into too much touble I will simply land cancel SAR and wait for the wx to pass. Doesn't really work in an over water SAR or High and rugged mountainous terrain where there are few LZ ' or LP's. The trick is in all flying sequences is to have a plan and arm yourself with a CIR and a robust IF currency regime.
To launch into marginal VMC wx thinking you can see and avoid the fluffy stuff simply because you are aided (NVG equipped)without an escape route or access to an instrument recovery (notamed as serv) is a recipe for disaster and plain stupid.
Careful what you wish for when it comes to NVG's. They are an excellent tool and enhance SA and capability but like most things, You don't get something for nothing.
IMHO
Give it some.
NVG/NVD offers an increased capability below LSALT at night and that is gold, however as I have shown to many a trainee, this is a double edged sword. Yes you can see the cloud banks and manouvre to avoid them but you can also find yourself thinking that what you are seeing is not too bad or improving and then suddenly without too much warning you are in IMC without too much trouble. Now some of you may think, no probs If I get into too much touble I will simply land cancel SAR and wait for the wx to pass. Doesn't really work in an over water SAR or High and rugged mountainous terrain where there are few LZ ' or LP's. The trick is in all flying sequences is to have a plan and arm yourself with a CIR and a robust IF currency regime.
To launch into marginal VMC wx thinking you can see and avoid the fluffy stuff simply because you are aided (NVG equipped)without an escape route or access to an instrument recovery (notamed as serv) is a recipe for disaster and plain stupid.
Careful what you wish for when it comes to NVG's. They are an excellent tool and enhance SA and capability but like most things, You don't get something for nothing.
IMHO
Give it some.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Asia/Oz
Og, are you thinking of the one off Dampier? More like 7 years ago. I filled in for a couple of weeks on the same job just before the accident. A real eye-opener. Would not want to do it without an IF background.
Have not heard from PR.
Have not heard from PR.