How much did you borrow?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How much did you borrow?
Hello all,
Just going through the financial side of things for the CPL(H)/CFI etc - I think I'm quite lucky as I have saved a substantial amount (in my books) of funds, but I'm just arranging a top up loan and it's still making me flap!
So I was just wondering if anyone could tell me how much they had to borrow to acheive their goal? Sorry if you feel I'm being nosey.
Cheers,
OOTD's
Just going through the financial side of things for the CPL(H)/CFI etc - I think I'm quite lucky as I have saved a substantial amount (in my books) of funds, but I'm just arranging a top up loan and it's still making me flap!
So I was just wondering if anyone could tell me how much they had to borrow to acheive their goal? Sorry if you feel I'm being nosey.
Cheers,
OOTD's
Guest
Posts: n/a
26,000 pounds. and i will have to find another 10,000 when i return to the UK to get converted to JAR. and thats not even counting the 6 months loss of income while i study for the CPL exams
whatever you calculate/borrow i GUARANTEE it will cost you more in reality.
whatever you calculate/borrow i GUARANTEE it will cost you more in reality.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello there captain.
I've managed to scrimp and save my way through to my CPL, so I haven't borrowed anything, but I have lots of dealings with people who have gone down the loan route.
At best it's going to cost 11,000 for your PPL, another 18,000 for your hour building, 3000 + / - for your ATPL exams (estimate figure bearing in mind hotels, fuel & loss of earnings for a few weeks) and a final 10,000 for your CPL flight course. (Estimate based on R22)
These are obviously just rough guesses, it will vary with how much your flying school charges.
I will say this though. Please be careful with your finances. I had three jobs at once. full time office, and two bar jobs to cover payment without getting into debt, so thankfully I have the CPL without any financial worries, albeit it's taken a bit longer than some other people.
I have been struggling to find a job for almost 12 months. However, I have 8 friends who have all got a £60,000 loan and have gone on a lot further than me to get their instructor rating. They have passed the test, and for the last 9 months give or take not one of them has found a position.
That's not to say that companies aren't taking on. I have certainly seen quite a few adverts recently. The problem is the low hours experience, it's very difficult (almost impossible) to be given that first chance.
What I am trying to say is go for it.... achieve your dream like I did. I have always been one for doing great things, but please be careful with how much you borrow. My friends now have £550 per month to pay back over 10 years, and non of them can afford it. Two of my eight friends have had their house reposessed (is that spelt right?), and one has had to sell his car.
That is no life for anyone.
Don't be thinking I am trying to scare you, like I say get out there and get that course completed because it's great, just watch your back and don't let the flight schools pull the wool over your eye's by telling you there's going to be a position out there for you straight away. Remember, they are after your money!!
Hope it all goes well for you.
RV
p.s get a second job... believe me it will absolutly kill you, but it's worth it for the money and financial freedom.
I've managed to scrimp and save my way through to my CPL, so I haven't borrowed anything, but I have lots of dealings with people who have gone down the loan route.
At best it's going to cost 11,000 for your PPL, another 18,000 for your hour building, 3000 + / - for your ATPL exams (estimate figure bearing in mind hotels, fuel & loss of earnings for a few weeks) and a final 10,000 for your CPL flight course. (Estimate based on R22)
These are obviously just rough guesses, it will vary with how much your flying school charges.
I will say this though. Please be careful with your finances. I had three jobs at once. full time office, and two bar jobs to cover payment without getting into debt, so thankfully I have the CPL without any financial worries, albeit it's taken a bit longer than some other people.
I have been struggling to find a job for almost 12 months. However, I have 8 friends who have all got a £60,000 loan and have gone on a lot further than me to get their instructor rating. They have passed the test, and for the last 9 months give or take not one of them has found a position.
That's not to say that companies aren't taking on. I have certainly seen quite a few adverts recently. The problem is the low hours experience, it's very difficult (almost impossible) to be given that first chance.
What I am trying to say is go for it.... achieve your dream like I did. I have always been one for doing great things, but please be careful with how much you borrow. My friends now have £550 per month to pay back over 10 years, and non of them can afford it. Two of my eight friends have had their house reposessed (is that spelt right?), and one has had to sell his car.
That is no life for anyone.
Don't be thinking I am trying to scare you, like I say get out there and get that course completed because it's great, just watch your back and don't let the flight schools pull the wool over your eye's by telling you there's going to be a position out there for you straight away. Remember, they are after your money!!
Hope it all goes well for you.
RV
p.s get a second job... believe me it will absolutly kill you, but it's worth it for the money and financial freedom.
I'll get me coat......
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Gold Coast, Australia.
Age: 51
Posts: 532
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come to Australia and save!
Are those figures real!!!
Come and train in Australia, a commercial licence will costs you approximately $40,000AUS which equates to about 18,000 pounds. We have had two English pilots train with us and are now working in offshore roles here in Australia. Now I know why they came over here, apart from the women!!
Cheers,
Hollywood
Come and train in Australia, a commercial licence will costs you approximately $40,000AUS which equates to about 18,000 pounds. We have had two English pilots train with us and are now working in offshore roles here in Australia. Now I know why they came over here, apart from the women!!
Cheers,
Hollywood
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Captain Holywood,
I'm afraid so! Those figures are more or less on the optimistic side as well!
For training it's about 250.00 per hour in an R22, and about 190.00 per hour for self fly hire. Scandalous. The problem is the V.A.T on fuel in the UK. I think it's about 80%. (If anyone wants to correct me on that they can do and I'll apologise, but I think I am right).
Are you working for a school at the moment that covers the JAR requirements?
It would be great to hear from you, if you could let me know your prices for your aircraft, I'm looking to do some hour building.
Take it easy.
RV
I'm afraid so! Those figures are more or less on the optimistic side as well!
For training it's about 250.00 per hour in an R22, and about 190.00 per hour for self fly hire. Scandalous. The problem is the V.A.T on fuel in the UK. I think it's about 80%. (If anyone wants to correct me on that they can do and I'll apologise, but I think I am right).
Are you working for a school at the moment that covers the JAR requirements?
It would be great to hear from you, if you could let me know your prices for your aircraft, I'm looking to do some hour building.
Take it easy.
RV
Guest
Posts: n/a
>I have been struggling to find a job for almost 12 months. However, I have 8 friends who have all got a £60,000 loan and have gone on a lot further than me to get their instructor rating. They have passed the test, and for the last 9 months give or take not one of them has found a position.
f*ck me! how depressing. where in the UK are your friends? up north? or down south?
f*ck me! how depressing. where in the UK are your friends? up north? or down south?
I'm struggling to compare another trade where you either go into hock for everything, lose your house/wife/work 27hrs a day...only to find there's little or no return at the end of it all?????
Weird ambitions? Or naivety?
Weird ambitions? Or naivety?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,576
Received 425 Likes
on
224 Posts
Better to blow the full £3.99 to buy the CD-ROM on how to be a plumber and make a small fortune....... 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: N55' 56' and a wee bit west
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excuse the interuption from a plank driver,
I thought fixed wing was expensive but these figures just scare me to death
We at least have PFA and groups to bring the cost down, Now i know there are no approved selfbuild blenders, but could you not get together and and get a group R22?
I realise it would be a big group and would seriously affect the availabilty but it must beat those prices!
I thought fixed wing was expensive but these figures just scare me to death
We at least have PFA and groups to bring the cost down, Now i know there are no approved selfbuild blenders, but could you not get together and and get a group R22?
I realise it would be a big group and would seriously affect the availabilty but it must beat those prices!
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello pilots..
I've been out on the vodka last night so there will probably be a few spelling mistakes on my post!!!
Just to answer your q's, three of my friends are North West, two were North West and have now gone to the London area, one has moved down towards gloucester staverton, and the last two are based Sheffield / Doncaster way.
I don't want to start hurting anyone's feelings so I'm not going to be all judgemental (especially as the Vodka is still messing withthe head) but, I just wanted to take this opportunity to tell the budding pilot who is thinking of getting a loan to be careful.
Like I say, any flying school is going to paint a rosie picture of the industry so that they get your money. Be careful with it and earn your money rather than borrow it! It makes all the difference.
(albeit I was working 65 hours a week).
Andyb79 - Yep it's a bugger of a world. And the thing is, once you pay that kind of money on the R22 and get your commercial licence, you still have to cough up another £6000 for a Jet Ranger conversion. (£500.00 an hour inc VAT / land fee - estimate). And then to saddle it all, no-one will employ you because you only have 7 hours on a JetRanger. What's fixed wing like at the moment??
Thomas, you make a good point - "wierd ambitions or Naivety"? The thing is I don't want to answer your question because I don't want to put anyone off achieving a dream.
The one thing I am trying to get across to as many people as I can is it is possible to get up to your commercial without a loan. You will then have all the financial freedom you deserve after working so hard.
I had an office job that paid 15,000 a year. I then had two bar jobs that brought me home an extra £250 a month + tips that paid for petrol.
The best way to get through the course is this. Take your bar job money and you use that each month to cover your bills. My monthly bills with a car, mobile phone, food and a bit to a friend who put me up in his spare room in his flat. Altogether it was about £300.00a month.
That left me with just under a thousand a month from the full time job, which I would dip into by about £70.00 to buy normal things to keep me saine (Vodka)!!!
The rest went on flying. It took me a while, but I promise everyone reading that this is the best way. Please don't end up in debt and owing thousands, it's just not worth it.
The course is achievable even if like me your on moderate wages. You just need to plough in the overtime each week, and keep it going for a long time.
Send me a PM if you want any advise. I know I have done it the right way, so hopefully I can part with some good advise and experience.
RV
I've been out on the vodka last night so there will probably be a few spelling mistakes on my post!!!
Just to answer your q's, three of my friends are North West, two were North West and have now gone to the London area, one has moved down towards gloucester staverton, and the last two are based Sheffield / Doncaster way.
I don't want to start hurting anyone's feelings so I'm not going to be all judgemental (especially as the Vodka is still messing withthe head) but, I just wanted to take this opportunity to tell the budding pilot who is thinking of getting a loan to be careful.
Like I say, any flying school is going to paint a rosie picture of the industry so that they get your money. Be careful with it and earn your money rather than borrow it! It makes all the difference.
(albeit I was working 65 hours a week).
Andyb79 - Yep it's a bugger of a world. And the thing is, once you pay that kind of money on the R22 and get your commercial licence, you still have to cough up another £6000 for a Jet Ranger conversion. (£500.00 an hour inc VAT / land fee - estimate). And then to saddle it all, no-one will employ you because you only have 7 hours on a JetRanger. What's fixed wing like at the moment??
Thomas, you make a good point - "wierd ambitions or Naivety"? The thing is I don't want to answer your question because I don't want to put anyone off achieving a dream.
The one thing I am trying to get across to as many people as I can is it is possible to get up to your commercial without a loan. You will then have all the financial freedom you deserve after working so hard.
I had an office job that paid 15,000 a year. I then had two bar jobs that brought me home an extra £250 a month + tips that paid for petrol.
The best way to get through the course is this. Take your bar job money and you use that each month to cover your bills. My monthly bills with a car, mobile phone, food and a bit to a friend who put me up in his spare room in his flat. Altogether it was about £300.00a month.
That left me with just under a thousand a month from the full time job, which I would dip into by about £70.00 to buy normal things to keep me saine (Vodka)!!!
The rest went on flying. It took me a while, but I promise everyone reading that this is the best way. Please don't end up in debt and owing thousands, it's just not worth it.
The course is achievable even if like me your on moderate wages. You just need to plough in the overtime each week, and keep it going for a long time.
Send me a PM if you want any advise. I know I have done it the right way, so hopefully I can part with some good advise and experience.
RV
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotorvation is right; borrowing the money in the present state of the industry is extremely risky.
It wasn't always so. In 1999, when I started learning to fly helicopters, you could still get a PPL(H) and 200 hours and an FI rating. Most people seemed to get an instructing job of some sort, got 700 hours or whatever it was you needed, then a CPL, then got hired by the North Sea Oil companies. Or so it seemed to me.
Then came JAR. Great, said everyone; the North Sea will hire you as a new under-200-hour wet-behind-the-ears CPL. And they did, for a bit. I knew a couple of people who got taken on, and I phoned a friend up there and arranged to go up for a look-see before applying myself.
Then came 9/11. Airline pilots lost their jobs, and those who were dual-qualified went back to the North Sea, tails between legs, for their old jobs. The oil companies stopped taking on new CPLs just like that. Soon, even those who paid for their own IR weren't guaranteed a job. Everyone started realising they'd need to get 300 hours (now 250) and an FI rating...damn, I'd always considered that, and thought I'd be alone, with all the ambitious young things off to the North Sea!
So now there's a glut of newly qualified CPL/FIs, and probably less students, since no-one who really understands the situation in the UK is likely to go for a CPL(H) unless they have money behind them. It's tough. I borrowed little, work freelance at something else, and do part time instructing work; it suits me fine and is working out so far. I'm not making any money from flying, but I'm not making a loss. I enjoy it, and I have another job anyway, so what the hell; I never wanted to be rich.
I too would never pour cold water on anyone's dreams. But do make sure those dreams are realistic. Things could change, but they may not. You may get lucky, but you may not. It may be better in other parts of the world, but I don't hear any rumours that it is.
So, all you rotary wannabes, I DO understand, really I do, but please....TAKE CARE!
It wasn't always so. In 1999, when I started learning to fly helicopters, you could still get a PPL(H) and 200 hours and an FI rating. Most people seemed to get an instructing job of some sort, got 700 hours or whatever it was you needed, then a CPL, then got hired by the North Sea Oil companies. Or so it seemed to me.
Then came JAR. Great, said everyone; the North Sea will hire you as a new under-200-hour wet-behind-the-ears CPL. And they did, for a bit. I knew a couple of people who got taken on, and I phoned a friend up there and arranged to go up for a look-see before applying myself.
Then came 9/11. Airline pilots lost their jobs, and those who were dual-qualified went back to the North Sea, tails between legs, for their old jobs. The oil companies stopped taking on new CPLs just like that. Soon, even those who paid for their own IR weren't guaranteed a job. Everyone started realising they'd need to get 300 hours (now 250) and an FI rating...damn, I'd always considered that, and thought I'd be alone, with all the ambitious young things off to the North Sea!
So now there's a glut of newly qualified CPL/FIs, and probably less students, since no-one who really understands the situation in the UK is likely to go for a CPL(H) unless they have money behind them. It's tough. I borrowed little, work freelance at something else, and do part time instructing work; it suits me fine and is working out so far. I'm not making any money from flying, but I'm not making a loss. I enjoy it, and I have another job anyway, so what the hell; I never wanted to be rich.
I too would never pour cold water on anyone's dreams. But do make sure those dreams are realistic. Things could change, but they may not. You may get lucky, but you may not. It may be better in other parts of the world, but I don't hear any rumours that it is.
So, all you rotary wannabes, I DO understand, really I do, but please....TAKE CARE!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would be very cautious about borrowing money against a career in helo aviation at the moment. IMHO you need patience, patience, dedication and patience. My golden rule was don't start anything I couldn't afford to finish. It did mean that once I had a ppl, I had no money. But then I saved again for the first chunk of hour building etc etc. Didn't bother with another rating till I did my R44 during my instructors course, stayed clear of turbine ratings until I had 1000hrs and a CPL. The old CAA system, (PPL + 200hrs P1 + FI(H)) was awesome mountain to climb, but you were under no illusions that you needed to go that far to have a chance of getting a job. Now it seems that people think that PPL + 100hrs P1 + CPL = job, when in reality it is PPL + 300hrs(?) P1 + CPL + FI(H) (or IR).
I understand those that don't want to shoot people's dreams down, but life out there is very real and a loan is a very real millstone to have around your neck. There is only one job out there that pays enough to cover a 60k loan (and a decent life) and that is the NS. Getting a job there is certainly possible, but there are times when there is no recruitment for 2 years or more.
Follow your dreams, but keep your feet firmly on the ground until you can afford to fly. Never give up the day job till you have a full time flying job and if you cannot get a well enough paid job, go out and get an education and a good career. Then you will be able to afford to fly and have a plan b if your flying aspirations are destroyed by a failed medical or a lack of jobs. Besides there are those out there in pprune land who thought they wanted to fly for living, but decided that for them it was better to have a proper job and fly for fun. They do after all have the luxury of being able to fly when and where they want to.
I understand those that don't want to shoot people's dreams down, but life out there is very real and a loan is a very real millstone to have around your neck. There is only one job out there that pays enough to cover a 60k loan (and a decent life) and that is the NS. Getting a job there is certainly possible, but there are times when there is no recruitment for 2 years or more.
Follow your dreams, but keep your feet firmly on the ground until you can afford to fly. Never give up the day job till you have a full time flying job and if you cannot get a well enough paid job, go out and get an education and a good career. Then you will be able to afford to fly and have a plan b if your flying aspirations are destroyed by a failed medical or a lack of jobs. Besides there are those out there in pprune land who thought they wanted to fly for living, but decided that for them it was better to have a proper job and fly for fun. They do after all have the luxury of being able to fly when and where they want to.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thaks folks,
it's nice to see some non-cynical advice coming back, however I do understand cynicism so no offence to anyone.
Thank you for all of your advice. I'm not looking at borrowing £60k or anywhere near - that is a scary amount. I'm looking at £15k just to top up on what I've got (£35k)+ppl. I'm also in a lucky enough position to have a partner who earns more than enough to hold the fort+no kids.
The only concern I have about waiting and earning that little bit extra is my age. I'm 34 now and feel if I wait another couple of years I'll be making myself less employable in a hard enough industry as it is.
Thanks again,
OOTD's
it's nice to see some non-cynical advice coming back, however I do understand cynicism so no offence to anyone.
Thank you for all of your advice. I'm not looking at borrowing £60k or anywhere near - that is a scary amount. I'm looking at £15k just to top up on what I've got (£35k)+ppl. I'm also in a lucky enough position to have a partner who earns more than enough to hold the fort+no kids.
The only concern I have about waiting and earning that little bit extra is my age. I'm 34 now and feel if I wait another couple of years I'll be making myself less employable in a hard enough industry as it is.
Thanks again,
OOTD's
My tuppence worth ?
PPL(A) at 1989 prices £4,500
Hour building in US, 1993 £4,000
IMC rating £2,000
Australian PPL(H) £4,500
Conversion to UK PPL(H) £1,200
Hour building in US, 2002 £7,000
Modular course £6,000
R44 type rating £4,500
JetRanger type rating £4,500
Flying to maintain currency £10,000 - £15,000
Total - £48,000 – £53,000
I did borrow (3 - 4 k ish) from the banks when I was doing the hour building, but I had savings, plus the added advantage of a job between 2001 and 2004 where I was, frankly, well overpaid with time available to do the flying. I've gone about this slowly - 15 years or so - but it's worked for me.
PS - and I've spent about £1800 so far this year on R22/R44/B206 base/line/LPC flying, and have started earning a bit back !
PPL(A) at 1989 prices £4,500
Hour building in US, 1993 £4,000
IMC rating £2,000
Australian PPL(H) £4,500
Conversion to UK PPL(H) £1,200
Hour building in US, 2002 £7,000
Modular course £6,000
R44 type rating £4,500
JetRanger type rating £4,500
Flying to maintain currency £10,000 - £15,000
Total - £48,000 – £53,000
I did borrow (3 - 4 k ish) from the banks when I was doing the hour building, but I had savings, plus the added advantage of a job between 2001 and 2004 where I was, frankly, well overpaid with time available to do the flying. I've gone about this slowly - 15 years or so - but it's worked for me.
PS - and I've spent about £1800 so far this year on R22/R44/B206 base/line/LPC flying, and have started earning a bit back !
