Refueling trailer fuel quality question
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Thanks, Nick. A fine compliment coming from you.
Flight school teaches basic pre-flight fuel inspection techniques but not fuel storage techniques. This exercise has been an eye-opener - at the very least taught me not to take the responsibility for granted. If you decide to own and operate your own bowser, you'd better learn all about fuel storage techniques (and fuel characteristics, fuel testing, fuel transportation, regulations, etc.).
Flight school teaches basic pre-flight fuel inspection techniques but not fuel storage techniques. This exercise has been an eye-opener - at the very least taught me not to take the responsibility for granted. If you decide to own and operate your own bowser, you'd better learn all about fuel storage techniques (and fuel characteristics, fuel testing, fuel transportation, regulations, etc.).
Senis Semper Fidelis
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I think we could do with some further "Farmyard Investigation" on this, Sunday just gone was a very good fine and sunny day with only a slight breeze where I live, I was doing the normal sorts of chores, washing the pots, vacuuming the carpets , feeding the tribe and mowing the lawn, so I thought "AH" I'll put some 95 octane petrol in a clean clear jar to see what happens.
4 hours later, 95 Octane all gone leaving only a very fine feel of oiliness, but none of the "White powder" observed in the sample I saw in the jar at the LZ adjacent to the home of Gaseous.
So question is, Is the White powder part of the Dye used in the Ident of 100LL, or is it some other sort of additive that is put there by the manufacturer when refining and mixing this Aviation Fuel, and if an additive what is it?
Peter R-B
4 hours later, 95 Octane all gone leaving only a very fine feel of oiliness, but none of the "White powder" observed in the sample I saw in the jar at the LZ adjacent to the home of Gaseous.
So question is, Is the White powder part of the Dye used in the Ident of 100LL, or is it some other sort of additive that is put there by the manufacturer when refining and mixing this Aviation Fuel, and if an additive what is it?
Peter R-B
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Thanks Peter, The final piece of the puzzle just dropped in!
The precipitate is most likely Lead bromide - the stuff that makes your exhaust white. I evaporated some avgas in the dark and got no precipitate so the precipitation is caused by sunlight. What Avgas has got that 95 octane hasn't, and is photosensitive, is tetra ethyl lead and ethylene dibromide.
A little research yielded this: (URLs on machine at work so don't have them now)
Ethylene dibromide, a clear liquid, decomposes under the influence of light to form ethylene glycol and free bromide ions which are pretty reactive.
Tetra ethyl lead, another clear liquid, decomposes under light to give ethylene(I think) and free lead.
Lead atoms plus bromide ions react readily to produce lead bromide which is a white solid at normal temperature. This is the reaction that also happens in your combustion chamber where it does its magic. It then goes down your exhaust to make it white.
It seems sunlight is mimicing the conditions in the combustion chamber which activate the lead chemistry to give the precipitate in the fuel.
The identifier dye turns the white powder pale blue.
It doesn't happen with 95 octane as they use heavier benzene or its derivatives to increase the knock rating - ? the oily residue you got, Peter.
Any real chemists out there confirm this?
The precipitate is most likely Lead bromide - the stuff that makes your exhaust white. I evaporated some avgas in the dark and got no precipitate so the precipitation is caused by sunlight. What Avgas has got that 95 octane hasn't, and is photosensitive, is tetra ethyl lead and ethylene dibromide.
A little research yielded this: (URLs on machine at work so don't have them now)
Ethylene dibromide, a clear liquid, decomposes under the influence of light to form ethylene glycol and free bromide ions which are pretty reactive.
Tetra ethyl lead, another clear liquid, decomposes under light to give ethylene(I think) and free lead.
Lead atoms plus bromide ions react readily to produce lead bromide which is a white solid at normal temperature. This is the reaction that also happens in your combustion chamber where it does its magic. It then goes down your exhaust to make it white.
It seems sunlight is mimicing the conditions in the combustion chamber which activate the lead chemistry to give the precipitate in the fuel.
The identifier dye turns the white powder pale blue.
It doesn't happen with 95 octane as they use heavier benzene or its derivatives to increase the knock rating - ? the oily residue you got, Peter.
Any real chemists out there confirm this?
Last edited by Gaseous; 25th Apr 2005 at 20:19.
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Here is a 15 minute sequence of pics that shows how quickly the dye begins to breakdown.
1) Fresh sample Avgas in open glass jar, sunlight 30C.:
2) By the time I returned from bowser with 2nd sample (4 mins.), the first had turned purple (they are now side buy side, 2nd sample on right:
3) Five minutes later, the 1st sample has returned to blue (though cloudy) and the 2nd sample is now purple:
I have no pic of the last where both are green with parcipitate in the bottom and eventually all liquid completely evaporated. It goes pretty quickly.
1) Fresh sample Avgas in open glass jar, sunlight 30C.:
2) By the time I returned from bowser with 2nd sample (4 mins.), the first had turned purple (they are now side buy side, 2nd sample on right:
3) Five minutes later, the 1st sample has returned to blue (though cloudy) and the 2nd sample is now purple:
I have no pic of the last where both are green with parcipitate in the bottom and eventually all liquid completely evaporated. It goes pretty quickly.
Last edited by Cross-eyed; 27th Apr 2005 at 01:49.
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Well, water detection tablets with the diddy syringe thing for the Jet A1 bowser, but a swill in a jar and a "Bright and Clear" check for the AVGAS.
I believe it's something to do with the lower tolerance for dissolved water in Jet A1 that the burners don't like, whereas a 1930's carburetor
and Champion's finest can still make a bang with a higher ppm of dissolved water.
The Shell man tests both fuels for water with his kit but as users we do as above. Should we be using tablets on the AVGAS?
Very interesting photos by the way.
I believe it's something to do with the lower tolerance for dissolved water in Jet A1 that the burners don't like, whereas a 1930's carburetor
and Champion's finest can still make a bang with a higher ppm of dissolved water.
The Shell man tests both fuels for water with his kit but as users we do as above. Should we be using tablets on the AVGAS?
Very interesting photos by the way.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Gaseous,
Seems to be you wearing the White coat,..... so Ethelene Glycol was, and I think still is a liquid used as a coolant in big A/c piston engines....It was also injected along with water into the fuel stream of the Rolls Royce Griffon engine when at full throttle and full supercharged boost to give I believe more bang to the fuel.
Then, if it is present in the 100LL of today, is this done for the same reason to make a Low Lead fuel more explosive upon compression/ignition, seems the more we dig the wider the hole is appearing! but I am sure we are near the answer, despite the Farmyard Experiments!
PeterR-B
Seems to be you wearing the White coat,..... so Ethelene Glycol was, and I think still is a liquid used as a coolant in big A/c piston engines....It was also injected along with water into the fuel stream of the Rolls Royce Griffon engine when at full throttle and full supercharged boost to give I believe more bang to the fuel.
Then, if it is present in the 100LL of today, is this done for the same reason to make a Low Lead fuel more explosive upon compression/ignition, seems the more we dig the wider the hole is appearing! but I am sure we are near the answer, despite the Farmyard Experiments!
PeterR-B
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Peter,
Ethylene dibromide is present in avgas to scavenge the lead and prevent it fouling your plugs. Ethlene glycol is a product of photoinitiated decomposition and is not as far as I know a constituent of healthy avgas.
In the combustion chamber ethylene dibromide will decompose during the burn to hydrogen, carbon and bromide ions, it being too hot for ethylene glycol to exist, let alone form. The hydrogen and carbon then just burn with the rest.
Water is not miscible with healthy avgas to an extent that is problem. It separates out and can be drained off safely. Water will only mix if avgas is contaminated with surfactants. If water is left in avgas for a long time microbial growth is possible, but not likely due to fuel toxicity, at the water/fuel interface.
Summary of what I have learned about avgas form this thread.
Keep it clean, keep it dark and cool, keep the storage tank clean and preferably insulated. Drain off water and don't keep it for more than a year. Check it regularly. Filter it properly on the way to your aircraft. If its not clear and blue, or you are not sure about it, dont burn it in your aircraft.
Ethylene dibromide is present in avgas to scavenge the lead and prevent it fouling your plugs. Ethlene glycol is a product of photoinitiated decomposition and is not as far as I know a constituent of healthy avgas.
In the combustion chamber ethylene dibromide will decompose during the burn to hydrogen, carbon and bromide ions, it being too hot for ethylene glycol to exist, let alone form. The hydrogen and carbon then just burn with the rest.
Water is not miscible with healthy avgas to an extent that is problem. It separates out and can be drained off safely. Water will only mix if avgas is contaminated with surfactants. If water is left in avgas for a long time microbial growth is possible, but not likely due to fuel toxicity, at the water/fuel interface.
Summary of what I have learned about avgas form this thread.
Keep it clean, keep it dark and cool, keep the storage tank clean and preferably insulated. Drain off water and don't keep it for more than a year. Check it regularly. Filter it properly on the way to your aircraft. If its not clear and blue, or you are not sure about it, dont burn it in your aircraft.
Last edited by Gaseous; 26th Apr 2005 at 22:42.
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Cross eyed,
just a suggestion. if you resize your pictures to 800*600 or less before posting them we dont end up with threads that have to be scrolled horizontally.
it makes them easier to read.
good thread.
just a suggestion. if you resize your pictures to 800*600 or less before posting them we dont end up with threads that have to be scrolled horizontally.
it makes them easier to read.
good thread.
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How long can you keep Avgas in canisters?
...as I found a batch of canisters, filled with Avgas by my predecessor.
That must have been well over two and a half years...
So I was 'googling' to see if there's any degradation of the fuel over time, keeping it in plastic canisters.
I found no info, so maybe someone can advice?
I'm also interested in the tenability (preservability?) of JET A1.
Thanks!
FTF
That must have been well over two and a half years...
So I was 'googling' to see if there's any degradation of the fuel over time, keeping it in plastic canisters.
I found no info, so maybe someone can advice?
I'm also interested in the tenability (preservability?) of JET A1.
Thanks!
FTF
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I seem to recall that Avgas should be laboratory tested after 3 months, and Jet fuel after 6 months.
This assumes that it has been un-touched for these periods, I.E. No new fuel has been added, and the fuel passes all the usual quality checks.
CAP748 Might have the correct information - I'm writing this from memory. Any aviation fuel supplier will be able to tell you of course.
Plastic containers are not the right material for storage btw, unless they have been designed for the purpose - which I doubt.
EDIT
CAP748 Chapter 4, Para 1.3 (c):
"c) whenever laboratory testing is required e.g. when Jet A-1 has been stored and not added to for a period of six months or when aviation gasoline AVGAS has been stored and not added to for a period of three months."
This assumes that it has been un-touched for these periods, I.E. No new fuel has been added, and the fuel passes all the usual quality checks.
CAP748 Might have the correct information - I'm writing this from memory. Any aviation fuel supplier will be able to tell you of course.
Plastic containers are not the right material for storage btw, unless they have been designed for the purpose - which I doubt.
EDIT
CAP748 Chapter 4, Para 1.3 (c):
"c) whenever laboratory testing is required e.g. when Jet A-1 has been stored and not added to for a period of six months or when aviation gasoline AVGAS has been stored and not added to for a period of three months."
Last edited by TRC; 27th Jun 2012 at 18:36. Reason: Added the CAP748 extract.
Water detection capsules are of more use for JET A than avgas as they are for detecting water in suspension. JET A is more likely to abscorb water than Avgas.
Water detection paste is better for avgas as you can check the botton of a container where water will lie.
Out of interest the CAA flight safety magazine Clued Up dropped on to the doormat this morning.
page 62 has a discussion on testing fuel and storage.
Water detection paste is better for avgas as you can check the botton of a container where water will lie.
Out of interest the CAA flight safety magazine Clued Up dropped on to the doormat this morning.
page 62 has a discussion on testing fuel and storage.
