Experience
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: LIVERPOOL
Experience
Hi Guys & Gals of the rotary world.
This is my first post here, as I have not been able to find any other posts about this topic. They are probably there, I'm just new to PPRUNE and am not looking in the right place.
May I ask you all an age ol' question?
I started flying many years ago, and progressed through the ATPL H exams and completed my commercial course, based on information from the flight school that "hey, your guaranteed a flying job!" - said with a great big smile.
So, Commercial licence issued, I rapidly came aware that with limited experience I would rapidly need to build a few more hours, because a few people before me had said that they we're struggling to find a position with an employer.
So I went to my training provider, and hey, the best advise given was basically I must do my flight instructors course and build hours by being an instructor.
At which point I told the flying school owner to bugger off for trying to deceive me out of more money. I told the owner that people before me who had done the instructor course had not got any job offers at all.
And then the crunch. Whilst tootling around an airfield one day, I came across a lovely person who was a pilot UK ATPL (H), with ME IR and instructor rating on many aircraft, and a total time of 5000 hours. All UK hours I might add.
We got chatting and my new found friend said that they spent two years trying to get out of Aberdeen, and had sent letters to more than 25 onshore operators, to which my new mate had no responses.
And so now I wonder, if someone with that kind of experience could not find a position, and several friends at my flying school who had progressed further than me (i.e instructor rating R22 / R44) can not find a position why should I continue? (no smart answers please like "because it's great!").
I need a substantial answer from someone, because remember, we've all got a roof to keep over our head at the end of the day!!
May I also just make a quick statement as well. The unemployed pilots I refer to are not a$$ holes. They are nice down to earth people, with modest expectations, a good background, who are dependable, hard working and would be there for the business and not themselves. I know this because I sat in the pub with them almost weekly for the last five years.
Anyone at all answer this for me? Where do we get the experience from?
This is my first post here, as I have not been able to find any other posts about this topic. They are probably there, I'm just new to PPRUNE and am not looking in the right place.
May I ask you all an age ol' question?
I started flying many years ago, and progressed through the ATPL H exams and completed my commercial course, based on information from the flight school that "hey, your guaranteed a flying job!" - said with a great big smile.
So, Commercial licence issued, I rapidly came aware that with limited experience I would rapidly need to build a few more hours, because a few people before me had said that they we're struggling to find a position with an employer.
So I went to my training provider, and hey, the best advise given was basically I must do my flight instructors course and build hours by being an instructor.
At which point I told the flying school owner to bugger off for trying to deceive me out of more money. I told the owner that people before me who had done the instructor course had not got any job offers at all.
And then the crunch. Whilst tootling around an airfield one day, I came across a lovely person who was a pilot UK ATPL (H), with ME IR and instructor rating on many aircraft, and a total time of 5000 hours. All UK hours I might add.
We got chatting and my new found friend said that they spent two years trying to get out of Aberdeen, and had sent letters to more than 25 onshore operators, to which my new mate had no responses.
And so now I wonder, if someone with that kind of experience could not find a position, and several friends at my flying school who had progressed further than me (i.e instructor rating R22 / R44) can not find a position why should I continue? (no smart answers please like "because it's great!").
I need a substantial answer from someone, because remember, we've all got a roof to keep over our head at the end of the day!!
May I also just make a quick statement as well. The unemployed pilots I refer to are not a$$ holes. They are nice down to earth people, with modest expectations, a good background, who are dependable, hard working and would be there for the business and not themselves. I know this because I sat in the pub with them almost weekly for the last five years.
Anyone at all answer this for me? Where do we get the experience from?
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
From: UK
Don't be put off by offshore pilots struggling to get onshore jobs. I was told long ago that ME IR work does not mean you have the skills for onshore VFR work. Two very different roles requiring a different set of skills.
Traditionally the self improver route was, as you indicate, slow building of licences and hours as a flying instructors. It has worked for many of those now doing that elusive job you crave. But it was never easy and there always has been times of pilot over supply, usually followed times where the NS has drained the over supply. I guess now with JAR there is an even greater over supply as a modular CPL is cheaper to get than it was under the CAA.
I don't know the answer to your problem. You are not the only one in this position and most of those self improvers that now earn their money flying have been there too. Persistance and patience are needed in spades and I guess if you don't want to fly offshore, then an instructors course will be the only way to achieve your dream. Unless of course you can afford to build that experience yourself, in which case don't bother with a flying job - just fly for fun.
Traditionally the self improver route was, as you indicate, slow building of licences and hours as a flying instructors. It has worked for many of those now doing that elusive job you crave. But it was never easy and there always has been times of pilot over supply, usually followed times where the NS has drained the over supply. I guess now with JAR there is an even greater over supply as a modular CPL is cheaper to get than it was under the CAA.
I don't know the answer to your problem. You are not the only one in this position and most of those self improvers that now earn their money flying have been there too. Persistance and patience are needed in spades and I guess if you don't want to fly offshore, then an instructors course will be the only way to achieve your dream. Unless of course you can afford to build that experience yourself, in which case don't bother with a flying job - just fly for fun.
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Where do you get the experience from? By being prepared to take any work coming along, as most first instructing jobs will be part time (though not always). By having another job to fall back on when the going gets really rough. By knowing everyone and getting on with everyone, which might give you an edge over all the other pilots - after all, you can all fly, so why should they choose you? By being lucky...perhaps the most important thing.
And if you think it just isn't worth it, well, you're probably right, and if you've read this forum at all, you'll have realised that many on here would agree. It's a tough old world out there, and the rotary flying bit of it is one of the toughest.
And if you think it just isn't worth it, well, you're probably right, and if you've read this forum at all, you'll have realised that many on here would agree. It's a tough old world out there, and the rotary flying bit of it is one of the toughest.
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
From: floating around
Strange thing is,
There are over 100 threads on this forum, letting people know of the dangers and difficulties in getting a jop with a civie CPL.
People who have been through it, and just about come out the other end, give there opinions, and get slated by the wannabies, who go ahead and do it anyway.
Then once they get it, end up comming back here letting people know of the serious dangers, to make commercial helicopter flying as a career choice, then they get slated by a whole new generation!
I know I was one of them!
The only winners are the flight schools
There are over 100 threads on this forum, letting people know of the dangers and difficulties in getting a jop with a civie CPL.
People who have been through it, and just about come out the other end, give there opinions, and get slated by the wannabies, who go ahead and do it anyway.
Then once they get it, end up comming back here letting people know of the serious dangers, to make commercial helicopter flying as a career choice, then they get slated by a whole new generation!
I know I was one of them!
The only winners are the flight schools
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
From: 18 Degrees North
Hey Mr Scouse Mouse
some time ago there was a guy on here who had an instructor rating and was bellyaching about the lack of flight instruction he had actually done.
I reproduce below what I said to him, apologies if it doesnt precisely fit your circumstances.
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still dont have a full time instructing job which i have been chasing since 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that along the way, that you have been offered trial lessons, or the odd actual training flight, probably on the weekend, also probably when it conflicts with something your wife/girlfriend/family or you wanted to do. maybe at an inconvenient airfield with considerable travelling, who knows
I am now luckily a full time offshore salaried pilot. but my very first flying job was a PPL instructor in the late 90's and the CFI told me that "I could do the odd Trial lesson, as long as it took nothing from anybody else" and he wasnt joking progress was slow, very slow, keeping within the 28 day currency for insurance was a problem.
following on from that I did no more than 20 trial lessons in the next 6 months and worked a full time non aviation job, but I persistently hung around even going to the school every weekend to remind them I was still there, whether there was work or not, and pushed to do more and it did eventually work out. but for 3 years my earnings were low, real low
But I like many others went the extra mile, cancelled everything at short notice if they gave me a TL , was available every weekend saturday and sunday and many weekdays too.
I am cynical, but suspect that you havent been trying hard enough or making enough sacrifices.
I used to at one time organise a flying program at one school and actually was amazed at how hard it was to get some new inexperienced instructors to do the work, they would say "its too much travelling for 1 TL" or "I am busy that day" or "I must have a family day every sunday", very quickly I stopped offering those guys work, did they want to be pilots or not ! not it seemed
everyone who is flexible enough should be able to get "some" work to get started. but how hard did you try really ?
be honest with us?"
regards
CF
some time ago there was a guy on here who had an instructor rating and was bellyaching about the lack of flight instruction he had actually done.
I reproduce below what I said to him, apologies if it doesnt precisely fit your circumstances.
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still dont have a full time instructing job which i have been chasing since 2000
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I suspect that along the way, that you have been offered trial lessons, or the odd actual training flight, probably on the weekend, also probably when it conflicts with something your wife/girlfriend/family or you wanted to do. maybe at an inconvenient airfield with considerable travelling, who knows
I am now luckily a full time offshore salaried pilot. but my very first flying job was a PPL instructor in the late 90's and the CFI told me that "I could do the odd Trial lesson, as long as it took nothing from anybody else" and he wasnt joking progress was slow, very slow, keeping within the 28 day currency for insurance was a problem.
following on from that I did no more than 20 trial lessons in the next 6 months and worked a full time non aviation job, but I persistently hung around even going to the school every weekend to remind them I was still there, whether there was work or not, and pushed to do more and it did eventually work out. but for 3 years my earnings were low, real low
But I like many others went the extra mile, cancelled everything at short notice if they gave me a TL , was available every weekend saturday and sunday and many weekdays too.
I am cynical, but suspect that you havent been trying hard enough or making enough sacrifices.
I used to at one time organise a flying program at one school and actually was amazed at how hard it was to get some new inexperienced instructors to do the work, they would say "its too much travelling for 1 TL" or "I am busy that day" or "I must have a family day every sunday", very quickly I stopped offering those guys work, did they want to be pilots or not ! not it seemed
everyone who is flexible enough should be able to get "some" work to get started. but how hard did you try really ?
be honest with us?"
regards
CF
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Camp Freddie tells it like it is.
When I got my FI rating a couple of years ago, I phoned around, and got told by everyone that there was no work. But one school owner said I was welcome to drop by for a cup of tea. I did, figuring it could do no harm to get known...and he said he'd like to help, and if I could find my own students I could teach them on his machines. So I got some local publicity, made my own website (I didn't know how to; I learned) and got a few hours that way. Then I heard on the grapevine of another school that needed part time instructors. They did, but couldn't believe I wanted to come, as it was nearly a two hour drive away!!! But it was more or less regular work, doing trial lessons mainly, one or two days a week. I'm still there, and they tell me there should be more work soon. I'm managing to keep current, slowly building hours...but I've only made about £600 in the last year, not even enough to cover expenses and medicals. I'm paying the bills through another job of course. I'm considering moving house, but waiting to see how things go - meanwhile I do long days flying, with four hours driving a day - knackering!And that's about the way it is for most of us. Is it worth it? You tell me. I think it is, but many wouldn't.
When I went for my present job, I got asked if I minded wearing a shirt and tie; their last FI(R) applicant had refused. Says it all, doesn't it? I'd have worn a teddy bear outfit if they'd have offered me work.
Camp Freddie, thanks for your pm; I can't reply as your mail box is full.
When I got my FI rating a couple of years ago, I phoned around, and got told by everyone that there was no work. But one school owner said I was welcome to drop by for a cup of tea. I did, figuring it could do no harm to get known...and he said he'd like to help, and if I could find my own students I could teach them on his machines. So I got some local publicity, made my own website (I didn't know how to; I learned) and got a few hours that way. Then I heard on the grapevine of another school that needed part time instructors. They did, but couldn't believe I wanted to come, as it was nearly a two hour drive away!!! But it was more or less regular work, doing trial lessons mainly, one or two days a week. I'm still there, and they tell me there should be more work soon. I'm managing to keep current, slowly building hours...but I've only made about £600 in the last year, not even enough to cover expenses and medicals. I'm paying the bills through another job of course. I'm considering moving house, but waiting to see how things go - meanwhile I do long days flying, with four hours driving a day - knackering!And that's about the way it is for most of us. Is it worth it? You tell me. I think it is, but many wouldn't.
When I went for my present job, I got asked if I minded wearing a shirt and tie; their last FI(R) applicant had refused. Says it all, doesn't it? I'd have worn a teddy bear outfit if they'd have offered me work.
Camp Freddie, thanks for your pm; I can't reply as your mail box is full.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: UK
I'm a new CPL and I have never been under any illusion that I will walk into a job once qualified.
My instructors never painted a rosy picture during my training and I'm glad for that.
I think anyone who believes getting a job will be easy or even believe what their school tells them about the job scene is a bit naive.
Where I live at the moment is not blessed with an abundance of Heli Operators and I know it's going to be a long slog to get the hours for instructor, let alone that magic first thousand!
But am I going to jack it in?
No way, I've spent too much time and effort getting where I am now and the feeling I had at first solo, PPL pass, ATPL exam pass and especially CPL pass will never be forgotten.
At the moment I've had to go back to work full time but I've got some time off coming up and then my car is going to get some hammer!
And if i get no joy, so what, I'll just do it all again next month!
My instructors never painted a rosy picture during my training and I'm glad for that.
I think anyone who believes getting a job will be easy or even believe what their school tells them about the job scene is a bit naive.
Where I live at the moment is not blessed with an abundance of Heli Operators and I know it's going to be a long slog to get the hours for instructor, let alone that magic first thousand!
But am I going to jack it in?
No way, I've spent too much time and effort getting where I am now and the feeling I had at first solo, PPL pass, ATPL exam pass and especially CPL pass will never be forgotten.
At the moment I've had to go back to work full time but I've got some time off coming up and then my car is going to get some hammer!
And if i get no joy, so what, I'll just do it all again next month!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: wales
I'd have worn a teddy bear outfit if they'd have offered me work.
Hi I am in the middle of ppl and will go on to cpl on a fast track .
Then i will be in this boat with all the wanabes , my school have not told me this will be easy and i know it will be hard , but i want to do it and i WILL DO IT , and whirly had the right idea with the teddy bear outfit , If thats what it takes then so be .
Good Luck
Then i will be in this boat with all the wanabes , my school have not told me this will be easy and i know it will be hard , but i want to do it and i WILL DO IT , and whirly had the right idea with the teddy bear outfit , If thats what it takes then so be .
Good Luck
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
From: Wembury, Devon
Guess what, being a commercial helicopter pilot is not the only difficult job to get into.
I work in the financial markets which is an equally desirable job, maybe for different reasons though. We are constantly flooded by applications from people desperate to get into the business offering to work for free etc. (they never get the job by the way). Even when they get in, probably for every one who is successful 10 fall by the wayside disillusioned or not achieving what they hoped.
Bottom line is life is tough and to make it you have to work your bollocks off and never give in. I believe you need a lucky break or two, usually involving meeting the right person, but you can help make that luck through hard work and determination.
Thats my two pence worth anyway.
I work in the financial markets which is an equally desirable job, maybe for different reasons though. We are constantly flooded by applications from people desperate to get into the business offering to work for free etc. (they never get the job by the way). Even when they get in, probably for every one who is successful 10 fall by the wayside disillusioned or not achieving what they hoped.
Bottom line is life is tough and to make it you have to work your bollocks off and never give in. I believe you need a lucky break or two, usually involving meeting the right person, but you can help make that luck through hard work and determination.
Thats my two pence worth anyway.
Senis Semper Fidelis
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
From: Lancashire U K
Forgive the bluntness, but why look for some one , or company to employ you, work for yourself, buy, borrow, or lease a copter, get a few adds going somewhere and even a website, then your the boss and away you go!
I realise that is not every one's cup of tea, but people will only beat a path to your front door if you are superman so if the Kryptonite has not yet kicked in try an alternate route, if you are serious enough you can make it work!!
Always remember "there are leaders, and followers" what are you!
Regards
Vfr , (self generating income earner for the past 35 years)
I realise that is not every one's cup of tea, but people will only beat a path to your front door if you are superman so if the Kryptonite has not yet kicked in try an alternate route, if you are serious enough you can make it work!!
Always remember "there are leaders, and followers" what are you!
Regards
Vfr , (self generating income earner for the past 35 years)
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: Bedfordshire, UK
I'm currently doing my PPL(H) at the moment. I would love to make a career out of it.
My day job is not boring and pays well (enough to fund my heli training + everything else). However, my feet are firmly planted on the ground when it comes to the issue about changing career - you need courage, tenacity and a bit of luck when changing career.
Anything you can do to get your face known in your new career is going to help. Small things can make a difference. Even simple things like being polite.
If you haven't worked in a customer service role you won't appreciate how 'please' and 'thank you' can make an impact. I've lost count of the number of times someone has come into the school wanting something. A lack of 'please' and 'thank you' is certainly noted in a negative light after they have left!
So I make a big effort to get on well with everyone I meet because you never know when it might matter (my personal life philsosophy!).
It might not get you that elusive job straight away, but if a little luck does come your way you will want the best chance to secure it.
Good luck with your search . . .
Solouk
My day job is not boring and pays well (enough to fund my heli training + everything else). However, my feet are firmly planted on the ground when it comes to the issue about changing career - you need courage, tenacity and a bit of luck when changing career.
Anything you can do to get your face known in your new career is going to help. Small things can make a difference. Even simple things like being polite.
If you haven't worked in a customer service role you won't appreciate how 'please' and 'thank you' can make an impact. I've lost count of the number of times someone has come into the school wanting something. A lack of 'please' and 'thank you' is certainly noted in a negative light after they have left!
So I make a big effort to get on well with everyone I meet because you never know when it might matter (my personal life philsosophy!).
It might not get you that elusive job straight away, but if a little luck does come your way you will want the best chance to secure it.
Good luck with your search . . .
Solouk
