the pilot weight issue....
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Alles uber der Platz
SASless
As I always said to the Old, Heavier, Grey'er LYNX guys "we are the new breed!" funnily enough thats the same story I was spouting when I was a young Plant Operator before I saw the light and came flying.
Better pilots? I dont think so. DIFFERENT? Still like sitting in the bar listening to how WE did it! Well most of the time any how.
Especially when i'm flying cabs older than I am! I did'nt even do that in the Mob
and they have got far less money than the average civvie set up!!!
Wally says "HI" by the way!? Well he actually said....................
L'
Going on from this does anyone "SUFFER" from standard wieghts that just dont meet the grade!?
I was doing a troop lift the other day and the BOOKED amount of guys was X " We take a Combat troop with ALL his Kit as (wieghed) 300lbs)" WE call 1+1(ie 1 GUY + 1 Pack)
I landed on and these guys start throwing on 1 Pack and 1 Grip/Bag to go into the junglr for 8 days! Needless to say we were kicking them off one by one until we could lift without frying the engines.
The point i\'m making is we are (most of the time) supposed to work to set weights for cargo and invariably they\'re wrong.
Anyone else come across this in your daily grind or do Ops staff sort it. Or is it as many bums on seats as possible?
L\'
As I always said to the Old, Heavier, Grey'er LYNX guys "we are the new breed!" funnily enough thats the same story I was spouting when I was a young Plant Operator before I saw the light and came flying.
Better pilots? I dont think so. DIFFERENT? Still like sitting in the bar listening to how WE did it! Well most of the time any how.
Especially when i'm flying cabs older than I am! I did'nt even do that in the Mob
and they have got far less money than the average civvie set up!!!
Wally says "HI" by the way!? Well he actually said....................
L'
Going on from this does anyone "SUFFER" from standard wieghts that just dont meet the grade!?
I was doing a troop lift the other day and the BOOKED amount of guys was X " We take a Combat troop with ALL his Kit as (wieghed) 300lbs)" WE call 1+1(ie 1 GUY + 1 Pack)
I landed on and these guys start throwing on 1 Pack and 1 Grip/Bag to go into the junglr for 8 days! Needless to say we were kicking them off one by one until we could lift without frying the engines.
The point i\'m making is we are (most of the time) supposed to work to set weights for cargo and invariably they\'re wrong.
Anyone else come across this in your daily grind or do Ops staff sort it. Or is it as many bums on seats as possible?
L\'
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
What happens if you are a fit bint?
I don't know, what DOES happen if you're a fit bint? A short, fit bint to boot?
Cheers
Whirlygig
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Alles uber der Platz
Whirly
Its all Japanese to me, but , I was once told that you could not fly 212 solo if you were under 80kg? ish.
Now personally 80kg is about my limit on weight for women(bints, in south UK)
Thats what it was for
L'
Its all Japanese to me, but , I was once told that you could not fly 212 solo if you were under 80kg? ish.
Now personally 80kg is about my limit on weight for women(bints, in south UK)
Thats what it was for
L'
Hovering AND talking
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 5,711
Likes: 1
From: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Yes L' - I understood the joke. Whether I am fit is not for me to say but I can still run up several fligts of stairs and can still turn a few heads (usually the old gits). My father was known to call me a "dozy bint" and I'm not particularly tall.
So, what happens if the pilot of a 212 is undertall and underweight?
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS - I thought "bint" was Arabic for daughter.
So, what happens if the pilot of a 212 is undertall and underweight?
Cheers
Whirlygig
PS - I thought "bint" was Arabic for daughter.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Wampum.....
If you think you have a problem with standard weights now....you just wait until you hit the oil patch. Oil patch weigh scales are notorious for underweighing.
Bubba, who is a gargantuan proportioned multi-celled organism that looks like Bluto in the cartoons....goes from ears to shoulders and is about as thick as he is tall.....thicker in some regards....will cross the helideck dragging two seabags because he cannot pick them up and maybe a footlocker sized toolbox....total weight.....235 pounds. That wee flange looking thing....that takes four bubba's to pick it up.....65 pounds.
You will find the mass and balance is computed with your left hand....and the torque gauge. Your training captain will tell you...oh..just have the dispatchers re-weigh things and we will submit a Voyage Report....blah...blah...blah.
All that does is confuse Bubba because he cannot read and what the heck Boudreaux...the other pilot brung it out here no problem....dontcha know!
If you think you have a problem with standard weights now....you just wait until you hit the oil patch. Oil patch weigh scales are notorious for underweighing.
Bubba, who is a gargantuan proportioned multi-celled organism that looks like Bluto in the cartoons....goes from ears to shoulders and is about as thick as he is tall.....thicker in some regards....will cross the helideck dragging two seabags because he cannot pick them up and maybe a footlocker sized toolbox....total weight.....235 pounds. That wee flange looking thing....that takes four bubba's to pick it up.....65 pounds.
You will find the mass and balance is computed with your left hand....and the torque gauge. Your training captain will tell you...oh..just have the dispatchers re-weigh things and we will submit a Voyage Report....blah...blah...blah.
All that does is confuse Bubba because he cannot read and what the heck Boudreaux...the other pilot brung it out here no problem....dontcha know!
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Fit bints carry ballast. If flying alone, it might as well be useful ballast, like a flight bag with everything you could conceivably need and then some. If picking up passengers, take a large plastic container of water, then you can empty out the water when you don't need ballast any more.
A better alternative is to take a young, goodlooking, male navigator.
A better alternative is to take a young, goodlooking, male navigator.
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
From: Alles uber der Platz
HHHHHHHHMMMMMMM, mmmm
Whirlygig
Didnt mean to cause offence old girl, but, one can only speek by one's upbringing, dont you know. SORRY.
We currently operate to a reduced AUW limit simply because of the landing sites we operate to. IE +40 2500 agl no run onn/off
you either call the landing on take off or you dont go(hence chucking pax off before you lift)
If you are solo and do not meet the weight, then the Cof G is all to pot and you probably wont be able to go as fast as you would like and it all gets a bit interesting.
SASless
After a bit of advive, normally we will not contemplate lifting in a 212 in the jungle if we dont have 20% in hand, due to the fact you will have to do a 150-250' climb to clear the canopy and then a little bit more to transtion.
What sort of margins where you working to in your time on 212?
Cheers
L'
Didnt mean to cause offence old girl, but, one can only speek by one's upbringing, dont you know. SORRY.
We currently operate to a reduced AUW limit simply because of the landing sites we operate to. IE +40 2500 agl no run onn/off
you either call the landing on take off or you dont go(hence chucking pax off before you lift)
If you are solo and do not meet the weight, then the Cof G is all to pot and you probably wont be able to go as fast as you would like and it all gets a bit interesting.
SASless
After a bit of advive, normally we will not contemplate lifting in a 212 in the jungle if we dont have 20% in hand, due to the fact you will have to do a 150-250' climb to clear the canopy and then a little bit more to transtion.
What sort of margins where you working to in your time on 212?
Cheers
L'
Last edited by L'WAAPAM; 29th March 2005 at 17:32.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
Margins varied with the operator...within operators....within operations within operators....and within the pilots at the operation. The honest way of putting it....whatever you thought you could get away with usually....paper calculations were a start...then it went to the Q meter....Nr....and experience check.
At a very warm and sandy place where things not muslim were not tolerated...and aroma of peach snapps at the border checkpoint was usually quite strong on their way north...we cut weight by a chart made up locally.
It was for a Bell 212, No SAS, -3B engines...30 minute OEI power and 500' PA as givens.....
+37C 11200
38 11114
39 11028
40 10942
41 10856
42 10770
43 10684
.. ..........
52 9910
The 412EP's did not cut weight at all....stayed at 11,900.
They also cut weight for night operations...in both aircraft....to provide a margin of safety considering an engine failure at night.
At a place in a muddy, restive place, inhabited by effusive people....
We used the concept of calculating several weights considering the operation we were doing...offshore deck, unstable deck, runway, or confined area , or restricted takeoff from a mud rig...which all came to different weights usually. I cannot begin to remember the numbers for all that.
212man might be able to throw some numbers at us.....
The US Forest Service uses OGE hover calculations for most operations to rough landing spots....with the option of the pilot or aircraft manager to further cut weight if needed....and also includes jettisonable weight (underslung load weight) in their calculations too. No 212 data handy to work out a load calc for the 2500 foot altitude you mention.
My basic rule offshore was 10% in hand....at a ten foot hover....then look for the upwelling air.....for a bonus. Will have to admit...sometimes it was a 3-5 foot hover with only a collective lever in hand.....and look for the upwelling air.....
Wind was important...more wind...less in hand needed to go...no wind or unfavorable wind...more in hand needed. Vertically to 150-200 feet....out of a confined area....20% sounds fair to everyone...pilot, pax, and employer.
At a very warm and sandy place where things not muslim were not tolerated...and aroma of peach snapps at the border checkpoint was usually quite strong on their way north...we cut weight by a chart made up locally.
It was for a Bell 212, No SAS, -3B engines...30 minute OEI power and 500' PA as givens.....
+37C 11200
38 11114
39 11028
40 10942
41 10856
42 10770
43 10684
.. ..........
52 9910
The 412EP's did not cut weight at all....stayed at 11,900.
They also cut weight for night operations...in both aircraft....to provide a margin of safety considering an engine failure at night.
At a place in a muddy, restive place, inhabited by effusive people....
We used the concept of calculating several weights considering the operation we were doing...offshore deck, unstable deck, runway, or confined area , or restricted takeoff from a mud rig...which all came to different weights usually. I cannot begin to remember the numbers for all that.
212man might be able to throw some numbers at us.....
The US Forest Service uses OGE hover calculations for most operations to rough landing spots....with the option of the pilot or aircraft manager to further cut weight if needed....and also includes jettisonable weight (underslung load weight) in their calculations too. No 212 data handy to work out a load calc for the 2500 foot altitude you mention.
My basic rule offshore was 10% in hand....at a ten foot hover....then look for the upwelling air.....for a bonus. Will have to admit...sometimes it was a 3-5 foot hover with only a collective lever in hand.....and look for the upwelling air.....
Wind was important...more wind...less in hand needed to go...no wind or unfavorable wind...more in hand needed. Vertically to 150-200 feet....out of a confined area....20% sounds fair to everyone...pilot, pax, and employer.
