advice: S76 or AS 365 or ...?
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advice: S76 or AS 365 or ...?
Guys,
I need some advice please:
Need a 10 pax heli with non military appearance (no Pumas or Bell 2 series) to transport pax and their kit 20 miles at a time over dry land and back in a 2000', 40 degrees C dry, dusty environment. Confined landing and take off at one end. Must also fit anti-missile kit.
S76 B stats show it's got the HOGE performance. Will S76A do the job ? P&W or Turbomecca engine better option ?
What about AS365 ? Anything else better ?
Presume no singles can do it...
Thanks for your help.
I need some advice please:
Need a 10 pax heli with non military appearance (no Pumas or Bell 2 series) to transport pax and their kit 20 miles at a time over dry land and back in a 2000', 40 degrees C dry, dusty environment. Confined landing and take off at one end. Must also fit anti-missile kit.
S76 B stats show it's got the HOGE performance. Will S76A do the job ? P&W or Turbomecca engine better option ?
What about AS365 ? Anything else better ?
Presume no singles can do it...
Thanks for your help.
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ga,
The 76B would be a good aircraft for your job. P&Ws better than Arriels for that sort of work. Only problem is 76 needs more maintenance than the 365. If you're looking at 365 the only one for that would be the N3 - a good hot and high helicopter needing less maintenance and burning less fuel than the 76B. I like both machines, but depends on what you want to do with them at destination. The N3 cabin is a bit smaller, but with the sliding rear doors and ease of removing seats to transport freight or stretchers I think it would be more versatile. The 76B with the PWs has EAPS already to deal with the dust, but you might need to think of fitting sand filters to the N3.
The 76B would be a good aircraft for your job. P&Ws better than Arriels for that sort of work. Only problem is 76 needs more maintenance than the 365. If you're looking at 365 the only one for that would be the N3 - a good hot and high helicopter needing less maintenance and burning less fuel than the 76B. I like both machines, but depends on what you want to do with them at destination. The N3 cabin is a bit smaller, but with the sliding rear doors and ease of removing seats to transport freight or stretchers I think it would be more versatile. The 76B with the PWs has EAPS already to deal with the dust, but you might need to think of fitting sand filters to the N3.
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Thanks. And we were thinking of (red or) yellow !
Unlikely to do any stretcher or cargo work (could happen, who knows ?) as will mostly be pax. Given the hostilities in the area, personnel are often of the more burly variety so bigger cabin of S76 sounds good.
Got C version figures, but would B also HOGE with pilot plus 10 with baggage and one hour's fuel ?
In a bit of a hurry (90 days to get it in and operating) so would not want to have to delay to fit sand filters. 76 sounds better as long as have access to maintenance.
Good gen. Cheers.
Unlikely to do any stretcher or cargo work (could happen, who knows ?) as will mostly be pax. Given the hostilities in the area, personnel are often of the more burly variety so bigger cabin of S76 sounds good.
Got C version figures, but would B also HOGE with pilot plus 10 with baggage and one hour's fuel ?
In a bit of a hurry (90 days to get it in and operating) so would not want to have to delay to fit sand filters. 76 sounds better as long as have access to maintenance.
Good gen. Cheers.
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ga,
In that temperature, forget the C, go for the 76B. It may burn a bit more fuel, but it's got a lot more power either twin or single engine. HOGE with 10 and an hour's fuel would be no problem. The 76C is not great at high temperature and at a bit of altitude and if you lose an engine like that it's a no-brainer.
Need any pilots?
In that temperature, forget the C, go for the 76B. It may burn a bit more fuel, but it's got a lot more power either twin or single engine. HOGE with 10 and an hour's fuel would be no problem. The 76C is not great at high temperature and at a bit of altitude and if you lose an engine like that it's a no-brainer.
Need any pilots?
I would suggest the Bell412EP with an aircon.....but put the utility interior in it. The EP is a horse when it comes to power. Looks kinda like the guys in green. The B model 76 would be the other choice as well.
If you are where I think you are going to be.....it will not matter what the aircraft looks like....you are going to be a piegon among hawks but still a bird. The Oppo's will merely see you as an outstanding target.....one that stands out from the others. No doubt you will be flying as a formation of one....something armed helicopters do not do.....which will make you stand out....and also violates security concepts. Better add on some kevlar floor armor and some nice class four vests.
If you are where I think you are going to be.....it will not matter what the aircraft looks like....you are going to be a piegon among hawks but still a bird. The Oppo's will merely see you as an outstanding target.....one that stands out from the others. No doubt you will be flying as a formation of one....something armed helicopters do not do.....which will make you stand out....and also violates security concepts. Better add on some kevlar floor armor and some nice class four vests.
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Initial thoughts were definitely of the 412, especially after having just been in Tsunami territory but yes, too much like the boys in green. If someone is going to let off a missile then anything to make it even a little bit more likely to be pointed at someone else is welcome.
Thanks for gen on B versus C. Have found a couple of Bs with P&Ws to look at. Anything particular to watch out for ?
Price on 76B seems to be about US$3-3.5m (plus the anti-missile equipment) depending on condition.
And, yes, the kevlar will be going too ! Initial thoughts were to have the pigeon flying in between some hawks wherever possible.
SASless I'd be really interested if you'd care to share any more gen on security concepts ? Better to follow military ops procs or very obviously do something different ? Probably doesn't matter much to a SAM but the less small arms fire encountered the better...
The hard bit will come later in the year - finding some guys to come fly it. Anjouan...
Thanks for gen on B versus C. Have found a couple of Bs with P&Ws to look at. Anything particular to watch out for ?
Price on 76B seems to be about US$3-3.5m (plus the anti-missile equipment) depending on condition.
And, yes, the kevlar will be going too ! Initial thoughts were to have the pigeon flying in between some hawks wherever possible.
SASless I'd be really interested if you'd care to share any more gen on security concepts ? Better to follow military ops procs or very obviously do something different ? Probably doesn't matter much to a SAM but the less small arms fire encountered the better...
The hard bit will come later in the year - finding some guys to come fly it. Anjouan...
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Anyone wanting to loose off at you is going to hear you long before they see you. 365 very distinctive noise, 76 less so and 412 too close to military. Coupled with distinctive colour should make you stand out from the rest, if thats what you want. Might outweigh cabin size limitations. Watch fenestron erosion in sandy unprepared sites tho.
NOTAR's are quiet....maybe a swarm of them rather than a single aircraft doing the mission....also allows for one aircraft to cover the other if guns are carried....think mini-gun...not GPMG's or M-240's.....depends on the mission, mindset of the outfit....flying around a built up area is filled with peril....low invites small arms fire....high invites one of the 5,000 missing MANPADS....personally low and fast as heck might be the right answer....particularly at night on NVG's. They cannot see you...they cannot shoot you. Do remember to turn the stobes off!
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goaround7,
Just a thought on the manpads, i have breifed on tactics with these in a previous existence. The amount of manpads in theater is not an indication of usable systems available, also take into account the amount of people trained to use them, they do require practice to use efficiently. Do you have access to inteligence in country, have there been reports of a lot of manpads being shot off, i suspect from a source in country that the majority of threat is small arms based, however don't discount any threat.
Bearing all that in mind perhps the you should plan movement in country with a flexible approach, some high level with a rapid descent type approach a la N. Ireland, some low level, preferably all at night, although i suspect the client will not want that.
Regarding choice of a/c perhaps blending in with other a/c will be a better approach, shooting down any helicopter for insurgent groups is a kudos kill.
Good luck
Just a thought on the manpads, i have breifed on tactics with these in a previous existence. The amount of manpads in theater is not an indication of usable systems available, also take into account the amount of people trained to use them, they do require practice to use efficiently. Do you have access to inteligence in country, have there been reports of a lot of manpads being shot off, i suspect from a source in country that the majority of threat is small arms based, however don't discount any threat.
Bearing all that in mind perhps the you should plan movement in country with a flexible approach, some high level with a rapid descent type approach a la N. Ireland, some low level, preferably all at night, although i suspect the client will not want that.
Regarding choice of a/c perhaps blending in with other a/c will be a better approach, shooting down any helicopter for insurgent groups is a kudos kill.
Good luck
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Thanks for more info guys,
Have discussed with client and blending in with Military is not an option. Strict instruction is to appear as non mil as possible.
Neither will there be any scope for night ops with or without NVG.
No guns either - totally civvie ops.
Only pax transfer during daylight.
We'd assumed on varying routes but the approach changes make sense too, thanks. Already doing spirals in there with fixed wing (now you can guess where I am talking about...) so could adapt that a little.
139 is also a good choice, agreed. Ordered a couple already but delivery is not till late 2006 or into 2007 and 109 Grand won't work.
Thanks again !
Have discussed with client and blending in with Military is not an option. Strict instruction is to appear as non mil as possible.
Neither will there be any scope for night ops with or without NVG.
No guns either - totally civvie ops.
Only pax transfer during daylight.
We'd assumed on varying routes but the approach changes make sense too, thanks. Already doing spirals in there with fixed wing (now you can guess where I am talking about...) so could adapt that a little.
139 is also a good choice, agreed. Ordered a couple already but delivery is not till late 2006 or into 2007 and 109 Grand won't work.
Thanks again !
Do not become predictable....or repetitive.....that is the key. If you become either....you will in no doubt draw some unwanted attention.
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Problem with the EC 155 inj a hot climate is that if you have any engine problems you're well in the poo as it wouldn't lift the skin off a rice pudding - ask Shell about their problems withn it at sea level in Nigeria. Go for the S76B
Bomber,
It helps...but it has to be aggressive....a change in speed, height, and and flight path makes you a harder target....not safe. Different weapons have different capabilities. A .50 caliber sniper rifle at moderate ranges on an aircraft landing or taking off with no deflection shots is deadly....an AK-47 on full auto at short ranges can also be deadly....RPG's are real helicopter killers....no small wounds with those things. MANPADS at altitude....depends upon which type...can be lethal beyond belief.
Each threat presents different requirements to defeat....each can be....but when threats are combined into an "integrated" threat scenario....one finds it impossible to be completely safe. Fly low to avoid MANPADS and you enter the envelope of small arms fire. A .51 Caliber machinegun will eat your lunch right on up to 5800 feet or so.
It helps...but it has to be aggressive....a change in speed, height, and and flight path makes you a harder target....not safe. Different weapons have different capabilities. A .50 caliber sniper rifle at moderate ranges on an aircraft landing or taking off with no deflection shots is deadly....an AK-47 on full auto at short ranges can also be deadly....RPG's are real helicopter killers....no small wounds with those things. MANPADS at altitude....depends upon which type...can be lethal beyond belief.
Each threat presents different requirements to defeat....each can be....but when threats are combined into an "integrated" threat scenario....one finds it impossible to be completely safe. Fly low to avoid MANPADS and you enter the envelope of small arms fire. A .51 Caliber machinegun will eat your lunch right on up to 5800 feet or so.
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An interesting thread. It does however leave me wondering about one thing, but maybe I’ve missed a point…
Just what the
is going on here???
Anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank missiles, heavy machine guns, light machine guns, in-between machine guns….
This is an environment where if anything has to be carried by air, it should be carried by something green, armored, and also carrying some people with guns who know how to use them. AND accompanied by some other aircraft whose only job is to carry things that go bang and to make those things go bang at anyone who wants make things go bang at the transporters or transportees.
Instead we have: “Sorry old boy, military looks too aggressive so it must be civilian, you’ll have to go unarmed, and also make it very clear that you’re unarmed, and also fly as far away from anyone armed who might come to your aid as possible. There! That should stop them from shooting at you!”
And not only do we have the professionals in the civilian helicopter industry calmly discussing this insanity… THE CONTRACT IS ALREADY IN PLACE.
If we’re honestly this desperate for revenue or flight time, then why are we even discussing things like safety in the GOM or EMS? Hell, why even do preflights?
Is it any wonder that the general public think we’re all maniacal cowboys?
Just what the
is going on here???Anti-aircraft missiles, anti-tank missiles, heavy machine guns, light machine guns, in-between machine guns….
This is an environment where if anything has to be carried by air, it should be carried by something green, armored, and also carrying some people with guns who know how to use them. AND accompanied by some other aircraft whose only job is to carry things that go bang and to make those things go bang at anyone who wants make things go bang at the transporters or transportees.
Instead we have: “Sorry old boy, military looks too aggressive so it must be civilian, you’ll have to go unarmed, and also make it very clear that you’re unarmed, and also fly as far away from anyone armed who might come to your aid as possible. There! That should stop them from shooting at you!”
And not only do we have the professionals in the civilian helicopter industry calmly discussing this insanity… THE CONTRACT IS ALREADY IN PLACE.
If we’re honestly this desperate for revenue or flight time, then why are we even discussing things like safety in the GOM or EMS? Hell, why even do preflights?
Is it any wonder that the general public think we’re all maniacal cowboys?