Airprox: Harrier vs. Air Ambulance (again!)
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FlyingS
So you are a "non public school educated buffoon" that explains alot
Don't forget the military pay taxes also so they are also paying
The low level environment is dangerous but to try and blame it all on the military is idiotic. There have been several cases where the civilian hasn't been looking out that have ended in tragedy eg. photo a/c flying in circles while taking photos and not looking out.
Keep high keep safe
2S
So you are a "non public school educated buffoon" that explains alot
Don't forget the military pay taxes also so they are also paying The low level environment is dangerous but to try and blame it all on the military is idiotic. There have been several cases where the civilian hasn't been looking out that have ended in tragedy eg. photo a/c flying in circles while taking photos and not looking out.
Keep high keep safe
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I'm so sorry everyone, but I have to comment on 2 strops' last comment, it has been bugging me all night/morning.
If this guy is "flying in circles while taking photos and not looking out." ;
I have to ask, what is he taking pictures of?
The instrument panel ?
Oh what the heck, while I'm at it;
It's easier to fly in circles by looking out than looking in, so why would he be making it more difficult for himself?
I refer to my previous smiley.
If this guy is "flying in circles while taking photos and not looking out." ;
I have to ask, what is he taking pictures of?
The instrument panel ?
Oh what the heck, while I'm at it;
It's easier to fly in circles by looking out than looking in, so why would he be making it more difficult for himself?
I refer to my previous smiley.
Flying Squirrel,
Thankyou for removing your off-target and offensive post. The vast majority of pilots you appear to intend working alongside in your new-found capacity as a commercial heli pilot are ex-mil, non-public-school educated (those fellas all become stockbrokers and hire us for weekend trips-to-the-races) and as keen to survive as you are. Among the very sensible suggestions here is the one about staying above 1500 feet when the weather permits. I suspect that's one lesson you'll remember, eh?
Sid, some very good points in your reply to Crab, but that .gif is certainly your favourite of the moment, innit? Are you letting them get to you...?
Thankyou for removing your off-target and offensive post. The vast majority of pilots you appear to intend working alongside in your new-found capacity as a commercial heli pilot are ex-mil, non-public-school educated (those fellas all become stockbrokers and hire us for weekend trips-to-the-races) and as keen to survive as you are. Among the very sensible suggestions here is the one about staying above 1500 feet when the weather permits. I suspect that's one lesson you'll remember, eh?
Sid, some very good points in your reply to Crab, but that .gif is certainly your favourite of the moment, innit? Are you letting them get to you...?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
"The low level environment is dangerous but to try and blame it all on the military is idiotic."
You can't put a bull into a china shop and then blame the shopkeeper for having his china on the shelves.
Child runs into another in the playground, other child injured.....whos at fault?
Sports car races around car park crashes into another....whos at fault?
They are all allowed to be in their respective places aren't they? (apart from the bull perhaps!)
If a child wants to run around freely, take them to open area.
If a sports car driver wants to go fast, go to a track day.
If a FJ pilot wants to train flying low and fast, DUA, NOTAM.
(you may forget the bull at this stage)
How many LL sorties take place in area 19 (N.Ireland)? Rhet.
If you mix the 2 they become 1 and nobody wants that.......do they?
Anyone mention CANP ?
Just a 10CC track
Or is it really Chris Rea ?
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Magic been keeping SS up
If my memory serves me right he was single pilot taking pics of houses or a wedding so his lookout would have included the brides garter and not the sky he should have been searching for conflicting traffic.
Sadly I believed he didn't survive the encounter.
2S
If my memory serves me right he was single pilot taking pics of houses or a wedding so his lookout would have included the brides garter and not the sky he should have been searching for conflicting traffic.
Sadly I believed he didn't survive the encounter.
2S
Well who was already an established user of the airspace before air ambulances and police helis came along? Oh yes the military doing that nasty fast low flying.
So who should make sure they are properly equipped with UHF and TCAS before they come and play in the big boys playground?
All FJ will be serviceable transponder equipped and use it or they are not allowed into the UKLFS and the only people who disable the mode C used to be the air defence boys who don't flash around in helicopter territory.
My point about HUDs was that at low level a FJ pilot doesn't have to look in for information and can concentrate on lookout.
SS -1. if the pilots lookout was so good they would see and avoid the FJ. What about a lookout turn before transitioning or a climbing turn on departure?
2. Why shouldn't the charity pay to have the aircraft fully equipped to do the job safely? Land ambulances don't go out without lights, indicators and radios do they.
3. Why shouldn't the charity pay for decent maps - land ambulances have GPS nav with audio commentary.
4. A TDA is announced on guard UHF and takes seconds to organise - every overland SAROP will have one extablished usually before the aircraft has got airborne.
5. How many AA and police have overflown minor airfields or farmers strips without making an RT call or considering potential traffic?
So who should make sure they are properly equipped with UHF and TCAS before they come and play in the big boys playground?
All FJ will be serviceable transponder equipped and use it or they are not allowed into the UKLFS and the only people who disable the mode C used to be the air defence boys who don't flash around in helicopter territory.
My point about HUDs was that at low level a FJ pilot doesn't have to look in for information and can concentrate on lookout.
SS -1. if the pilots lookout was so good they would see and avoid the FJ. What about a lookout turn before transitioning or a climbing turn on departure?
2. Why shouldn't the charity pay to have the aircraft fully equipped to do the job safely? Land ambulances don't go out without lights, indicators and radios do they.
3. Why shouldn't the charity pay for decent maps - land ambulances have GPS nav with audio commentary.
4. A TDA is announced on guard UHF and takes seconds to organise - every overland SAROP will have one extablished usually before the aircraft has got airborne.
5. How many AA and police have overflown minor airfields or farmers strips without making an RT call or considering potential traffic?
Tightgit
Crab,
Re FJ lookout, I was under the impression that Tornado jocks (we can call them FJ can't we?) are renowned for NOT looking out ! (They certainly used to be
)
re point 2 Land ambulances are paid for by the health authority, not charity. It takes quite a bit of fundraising just to get a basically equipped helicopter operational!
Re point 3 See the answer to point 2 above, however, they should have current maps/charts.
Re FJ lookout, I was under the impression that Tornado jocks (we can call them FJ can't we?) are renowned for NOT looking out !
(They certainly used to be)re point 2 Land ambulances are paid for by the health authority, not charity. It takes quite a bit of fundraising just to get a basically equipped helicopter operational!
Re point 3 See the answer to point 2 above, however, they should have current maps/charts.
Avoid imitations
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"So who should make sure they are properly equipped with UHF and TCAS before they come and play in the big boys playground?"
Crab, I think you cannot be serious. It's class G airspace (suggest you refresh your brain what that means next time you do your QHI recat). It certainly doesn't belong to the military jet boys, in fact it could be argued that they are a minority user these days. BTW, how many UK military FJs have TCAS?
"How many AA and police have overflown minor airfields or farmers strips without making an RT call or considering potential traffic?"
At 420 kts and 250 feet? Not many!
Crab, I think you cannot be serious. It's class G airspace (suggest you refresh your brain what that means next time you do your QHI recat). It certainly doesn't belong to the military jet boys, in fact it could be argued that they are a minority user these days. BTW, how many UK military FJs have TCAS?
"How many AA and police have overflown minor airfields or farmers strips without making an RT call or considering potential traffic?"
At 420 kts and 250 feet? Not many!
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Handy,
sorry but the English and welsh Air Ambs are all charity funded except for London Hems, local health authorities do make donations but it is charity run.Oh sorry that yellow thing running out of coventry is paid for partially by the Warwickshire Amb trust.
sorry but the English and welsh Air Ambs are all charity funded except for London Hems, local health authorities do make donations but it is charity run.Oh sorry that yellow thing running out of coventry is paid for partially by the Warwickshire Amb trust.
Tightgit
QM
That is the implication of
do pay attention
sorry but the English and welsh Air Ambs are all charity funded
2 Land ambulances are paid for by the health authority, not charity
do pay attention
Crab, have the SAR cabs been fitted with TCAS yet?
I remember enjoying several very close calls with LL FJ's that TCAS (if it had been around then) might have prevented.
I also remember RCC asking us once if the TDA activated around a job we were on could be lifted as it was holding up urgent LL training!!
I remember enjoying several very close calls with LL FJ's that TCAS (if it had been around then) might have prevented.
I also remember RCC asking us once if the TDA activated around a job we were on could be lifted as it was holding up urgent LL training!!
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Just a couple of thoughts on the UHF. I operate a private aircraft from a site under Warton's fast jet circuit. I can't get VHF on the ground due to topography and after a couple of times being frightened to death by Eurofighters as I took off, I thought I would try to listen for their UHF transmissions, so I got an icom scanner and connected it up to a spare headset lead and plugged it into the intercom.
It does work but its hard to work out where they are from just listening in.
I also got one of these things that detects squawks and works out the distance. No direction, but if it counts down quick it sure makes the look out better. Its better than nothing but not much.
The thing that gives me most peace of mind is a 360 as soon as I lift and a damn good look out.
It does work but its hard to work out where they are from just listening in.
I also got one of these things that detects squawks and works out the distance. No direction, but if it counts down quick it sure makes the look out better. Its better than nothing but not much.
The thing that gives me most peace of mind is a 360 as soon as I lift and a damn good look out.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
2 Strops, (perhaps the number should be increased )
I shouldn't flatter yourself if I were you, the military aren't the only ones who operate at night, and even then its wrap it up at midnight and off to the mess.
'Magic' hasn't kept me up for a while now, but I'm sure they are still very nice and helpful chaps.
If the photographing pilot didn't survive the encounter, how can you possibly know what he was up to at the time of said incident?
(I would insert the usual smiley at this moment, but I'm using it too much!)
)
Magic been keeping SS up
'Magic' hasn't kept me up for a while now, but I'm sure they are still very nice and helpful chaps.
If the photographing pilot didn't survive the encounter, how can you possibly know what he was up to at the time of said incident?
(I would insert the usual smiley at this moment, but I'm using it too much!)
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In Bonnie Scotland the government pays for the Air Ambulances.
Perhaps you English and Welsh types ought to persuade that nice Scot Gordon (I have ruined your pensions, £40 billion and counting) Brown to cough up for you too. Why should charities have to pay. Any way MSRA will get you if you make it to hospital.
Interesting that most of the incidents are down south while we have more low flying up here.
Over to you SS
Perhaps you English and Welsh types ought to persuade that nice Scot Gordon (I have ruined your pensions, £40 billion and counting) Brown to cough up for you too. Why should charities have to pay. Any way MSRA will get you if you make it to hospital.
Interesting that most of the incidents are down south while we have more low flying up here.
Over to you SS
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Ok, here goes; Cessna driver in Carno Mid Wales, 1990/1 I think, was taking pix of houses and was hit from the 7-8 o'clock position by a Jag. I don't think he could have been expected to see that coming. So, why did the Jag pilot not see him? After all the Cessna was engaged in a perfectly legal right turn and the Jag was V.high speed at low level in a valley, I think the onus was on him to be heads up and eyes out.
Do we really need Low Level training in the open FIR over so much of the UK? Why can't the crabs do it in the deeper reaches of Scotland? Maybe the sooner the crabs all get to fly desks and let UAV's do the work the better (Helmet on, sand bags in position - incoming!)
Do we really need Low Level training in the open FIR over so much of the UK? Why can't the crabs do it in the deeper reaches of Scotland? Maybe the sooner the crabs all get to fly desks and let UAV's do the work the better (Helmet on, sand bags in position - incoming!)
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ec135driver, Carno is not a good example. If you wish to use this particular mid-air, you must ask the following questions:
What height above ground did the collision take place? Was the Cessna complying with Rule 5?
How 'safe' is it to be in an orbit taking photos of objects on the ground with a handheld camera whilst flying solo? If you want to talk "onus", under VFR the onus was on both pilots to be "heads up and eyes out".
What height above ground did the collision take place? Was the Cessna complying with Rule 5?
How 'safe' is it to be in an orbit taking photos of objects on the ground with a handheld camera whilst flying solo? If you want to talk "onus", under VFR the onus was on both pilots to be "heads up and eyes out".
There is plenty of airspace for everyone. We just need to know when and where the jets are coming from before we can see them.
The technology for this is available but the charities are hard pushed to afford £50-60k per airframe for TCAS. (some are still struggling just to stay airborne).
The recent Strensham incident has apparently got the attention of the NHS, so perhaps some progress, re TCAS funding, might come out of this.
(Local NHS trusts supply the Paramedics who crew the HEMS)
The technology for this is available but the charities are hard pushed to afford £50-60k per airframe for TCAS. (some are still struggling just to stay airborne).
The recent Strensham incident has apparently got the attention of the NHS, so perhaps some progress, re TCAS funding, might come out of this.
(Local NHS trusts supply the Paramedics who crew the HEMS)
Strange that the charities can afford to upgrade from Bo105 to EC135 and the like but not go the extra mile for TCAS. Since the argument for upgrade was no doubt increased safety and reduced operating costs it is false economy to scrimp on TCAS if you really believe there is a real threat of losing an aircraft.
I had 2 different FJ fly close to me today both coming from behind (one during a PFL and the other positioning for ILS) but they both saw me and manoeuvred away - maybe it was the white strobes, maybe it was the hover floods, maybe it was just the aircraft they saw but they saw me and that was in reducing vis due to light snow showers.
In the South West we get a lot of low level FJ traffic because there is little regulated airspace and few built up areas to avoid but we manage without TCAS.
Maybe you should look at how many jobs you get launched to that aren't really essential but keep your callout stats high to please the charity and the NHS and then consider your exposure time to the 'FJ threat' during non-urgent lifesaving flights.
I am sure I seem hard nosed and unreasonable about this but everyone loves to slag off the military because we are an easy target.
If you want FJ pilot reaction and comments then post on the Military Aircrew thread but don't be surprised at the response.
No FJ crew goes out to frighten helicopter pilots and they don't launch without proper briefing and planning (including CANPs). Neither do they deliberately overfly AA or police HLS and since they don't know which field you will be in on a job they can hardly be expected to avoid you there.
I had 2 different FJ fly close to me today both coming from behind (one during a PFL and the other positioning for ILS) but they both saw me and manoeuvred away - maybe it was the white strobes, maybe it was the hover floods, maybe it was just the aircraft they saw but they saw me and that was in reducing vis due to light snow showers.
In the South West we get a lot of low level FJ traffic because there is little regulated airspace and few built up areas to avoid but we manage without TCAS.
Maybe you should look at how many jobs you get launched to that aren't really essential but keep your callout stats high to please the charity and the NHS and then consider your exposure time to the 'FJ threat' during non-urgent lifesaving flights.
I am sure I seem hard nosed and unreasonable about this but everyone loves to slag off the military because we are an easy target.
If you want FJ pilot reaction and comments then post on the Military Aircrew thread but don't be surprised at the response.
No FJ crew goes out to frighten helicopter pilots and they don't launch without proper briefing and planning (including CANPs). Neither do they deliberately overfly AA or police HLS and since they don't know which field you will be in on a job they can hardly be expected to avoid you there.
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There is some wonderful technology out there that will in theory help to avoid this, but none of this technology can look around hills (except satelite coms). TCAS and UHF are only line of sight, which isn't very far in Welsh valleys, Lakeland fells or Scottish Glens.
TDA's are great but cannot be communicated to FJs already Low level in mountainous terrain. TDAs are regularly busted simply because there is no way the FJs can be told that of their existance. The average AA leg is of 5 - 15 mins so there is little if any time to set up a TDA.
There is no simple answer to this, but maybe satelite links and TCAS in all FJ and HF links between AA and ARCC might help. Until then may be AEW top cover for all LL FJs. Yeah right. It does surprise me that the military do not fit TCAS already, after all they stand to loose the most in case of a mid air (more expensive kit and the mauling the military would get from the more tenacious journos).
It is encumbant on all of us to keep a good look out and to be talking or at least listening on the appropriate frequency. But is this practical at times of high pilot work load (250' at 400kts or short finals to wire strewn LS)?
TDA's are great but cannot be communicated to FJs already Low level in mountainous terrain. TDAs are regularly busted simply because there is no way the FJs can be told that of their existance. The average AA leg is of 5 - 15 mins so there is little if any time to set up a TDA.
There is no simple answer to this, but maybe satelite links and TCAS in all FJ and HF links between AA and ARCC might help. Until then may be AEW top cover for all LL FJs. Yeah right. It does surprise me that the military do not fit TCAS already, after all they stand to loose the most in case of a mid air (more expensive kit and the mauling the military would get from the more tenacious journos).
It is encumbant on all of us to keep a good look out and to be talking or at least listening on the appropriate frequency. But is this practical at times of high pilot work load (250' at 400kts or short finals to wire strewn LS)?