Airprox: Harrier vs. Air Ambulance (again!)
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Must admit TCAS is long overdue for HEMS aircraft, after all they are more vulnerable than police helis that have had the kit for a long time.
Have been enjoying the benefits of TCAS for some time. How we ever managed before I do not know. Certainly has reduced the risk of air-to-air in my estimation.
Flew out of Strensham several times and was very conscious of the FJ use of that location as a turning point. Why can't we have an ATZ for these locations similarly Devizes, Marden, Ripley, Boreham and all the others out on a limb somewhere.
Have been enjoying the benefits of TCAS for some time. How we ever managed before I do not know. Certainly has reduced the risk of air-to-air in my estimation.
Flew out of Strensham several times and was very conscious of the FJ use of that location as a turning point. Why can't we have an ATZ for these locations similarly Devizes, Marden, Ripley, Boreham and all the others out on a limb somewhere.
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UK police helos have now all got TCAS
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I agree with a previous comment. The AIRPROX board is a toothless organisation. Admittedly there are civilians on the board but after several years in military aviation and >10 years in emergency services aviation my opinion leads me to believe 'it is an organisation run by crabs for the protection of crabs'.
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quote:
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UK police helos have now all got TCAS
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"I know of one who hasn't. "
I know of Three more!!
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UK police helos have now all got TCAS
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"I know of one who hasn't.
"I know of Three more!!
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A suggested solution: let each county's HEMS share a crew room with a local RAF station. Fertile ground for a regular beneficial exchange of views? (Easy for Norfolk, difficult for Essex, I know.)
Good idea but probably dated. In the last few days the Government has again been talking about shedding yet more MoD airfields.
Similar insecurity has just led the Humberside Police to opt out of Leconfield.... they were not pushed but the insecurity itself had the 'desired' effect and they decided not to invest in a rebuild on the former RAF field. They are off to Humberside Airport and are building a new base for occupation this summer.
Similar insecurity has just led the Humberside Police to opt out of Leconfield.... they were not pushed but the insecurity itself had the 'desired' effect and they decided not to invest in a rebuild on the former RAF field. They are off to Humberside Airport and are building a new base for occupation this summer.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Or why not let the FJ boys have a day or 2 out with the air ambulance, (well at least 'to' the incident!), and see how safe they feel!
And then the air ambo boys can have a go in the FJ, to see what they can/cannot see.
Everyone in the picture, links made, some ideas banded around, Robert is your mums brother and I'm sure a BBQ would fit in there nicely as well.
Of course the invite should extend to other air units without TCAS
And then the air ambo boys can have a go in the FJ, to see what they can/cannot see.
Everyone in the picture, links made, some ideas banded around, Robert is your mums brother and I'm sure a BBQ would fit in there nicely as well.
Of course the invite should extend to other air units without TCAS
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Sorry to be a civvy street pain in the gearbox strops, but as I said, until it happens to you, i'm sure you'll never be able to agree - and I sincerely hope it does not. I was at 1500' incidently. I do appreciate what the RAF guys do but not at any price to the innocent.
Police helos without TCAS!! If not fitted, why not? I thought the cash was there for all police units to go TCAS.
Or are we talking spare a/c?
Or congested area, non mil low level FJ type locations?
Hilico; I operate HEMS from a major RAF airfield. I dont need more exchange of views, I need TCAS. I've also been low level in Tornados and Hawks (sadly not Harrier) to see what I could see. (supersonic at 200ft as well. Ok Ok!! that one was over the Falklands ) I still need TCAS. We all get on great. FJ Low Level ?-- --Hey it's the east of England!! Coningsby, Wittering, Cottesmore, Scampton, Cranwell, Waddington , Barkston . Marham just round the corner, Vale of York just above. Lots of important mil training all over. I really would appreciate TCAS fitted for the HEMS role.
Or are we talking spare a/c?
Or congested area, non mil low level FJ type locations?
Hilico; I operate HEMS from a major RAF airfield. I dont need more exchange of views, I need TCAS. I've also been low level in Tornados and Hawks (sadly not Harrier) to see what I could see. (supersonic at 200ft as well. Ok Ok!! that one was over the Falklands ) I still need TCAS. We all get on great. FJ Low Level ?-- --Hey it's the east of England!! Coningsby, Wittering, Cottesmore, Scampton, Cranwell, Waddington , Barkston . Marham just round the corner, Vale of York just above. Lots of important mil training all over. I really would appreciate TCAS fitted for the HEMS role.
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 25th Feb 2005 at 06:36.
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Low Flying
Head Turner - Sorry, dont agree on Low Flying training having to be on set routes. Its simply not going to prepare you for being dumped in an unfamiliar environment and having to do it in anger for the first time with people taking a pop at you.
What the military could pay more attention to is avoidance criteria for particular sites. At the moment microlight and helo sites, and many glider sites, light a/c strips etc are all "see and avoid". ie, duty nav bloke can draw his line on the map straight over the top of these sites and hope duty looking out bloke dodges any traffic. Busy sites such as police/HEMS ought to be treated differently from (for example) a farm strip which gets used once in a blue moon on a sunny Sunday in July. They need protection from someone who is perhaps under training dealing with bounce aircraft, simulated AAA, ground radar spikes, an instructor giving him a hard time etc, who is maybe not looking out the front for the vital 1.5 secs when it can make a difference.
Likewise, the CAA could do more to acknowledge that low flying training happens, and where and how. On a military low flying map, choke points and flow directions up and down valleys are marked. Biggles knows which way to look when hes crossing the valley. Civvy bloke has to guess which way Biggles uses it as a one-way street unless he has local knowledge or has proffed a military map.
How about a coordinated approach, or am I being too obvious??
What the military could pay more attention to is avoidance criteria for particular sites. At the moment microlight and helo sites, and many glider sites, light a/c strips etc are all "see and avoid". ie, duty nav bloke can draw his line on the map straight over the top of these sites and hope duty looking out bloke dodges any traffic. Busy sites such as police/HEMS ought to be treated differently from (for example) a farm strip which gets used once in a blue moon on a sunny Sunday in July. They need protection from someone who is perhaps under training dealing with bounce aircraft, simulated AAA, ground radar spikes, an instructor giving him a hard time etc, who is maybe not looking out the front for the vital 1.5 secs when it can make a difference.
Likewise, the CAA could do more to acknowledge that low flying training happens, and where and how. On a military low flying map, choke points and flow directions up and down valleys are marked. Biggles knows which way to look when hes crossing the valley. Civvy bloke has to guess which way Biggles uses it as a one-way street unless he has local knowledge or has proffed a military map.
How about a coordinated approach, or am I being too obvious??
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Low level Conflict
Bomber Aris`s post raises once again the continuing conflict in the open FIR at low level. All users of Class G airspace under VFR have the right to expect that all other users will be making every effort to maintain a good lookout. Sadly, in many cases reported in recent years it has often come to light that fast jet crews operating at up to 450 knots at low level have been `heads in` when approaching IP or target in order to maximise their chances of a successful mission at the expense of their lookout.
One controversial contribution is for fast jets to be equipped with some form of collision avoidance equipment. This has been repeatedly promised by the MOD and just as frequently delayed for financial or political reasons. At present we are in a `we cannot find suitable equipment`phase, next we should expect `there is no room to fit it`closely followed by ` there isn`t really a problem is there?` phases. It has been seen before.
The CAA has been quick to mandate the fitting of collision avoidance equipment to aerial work helicopters operating below 500 feet, why should not the MOD do the same for fast jets?
One controversial contribution is for fast jets to be equipped with some form of collision avoidance equipment. This has been repeatedly promised by the MOD and just as frequently delayed for financial or political reasons. At present we are in a `we cannot find suitable equipment`phase, next we should expect `there is no room to fit it`closely followed by ` there isn`t really a problem is there?` phases. It has been seen before.
The CAA has been quick to mandate the fitting of collision avoidance equipment to aerial work helicopters operating below 500 feet, why should not the MOD do the same for fast jets?
So why haven't the CAA mandated TCAS for all UK HEMS? We spend nearly all our time in the fast jet band and at least 25% in the critical 0-500ft band, taking off and landing at adhoc sites.
(And its all public transport)
Regarding HEMS, who carries the can for "duty of care"?
CAA? Charity? or Operator?
(And its all public transport)
Regarding HEMS, who carries the can for "duty of care"?
CAA? Charity? or Operator?
Bleat - whinge - moan RAF flying too fast and low making our life difficult. Try a. looking out, b. getting yourselves TCAS and UHF equipped, c. campaigning to the CAA to have Civvy maps marked with the UKLFS and choke points and d. subscribe to the big sky theory since there hasn't actually been a mid-air since the jetranger one which resulted in the pipeline inspection notification system.
Alternatively volunteer to go to war without low level training and see how long you survive.
Alternatively 2, get HEMS to use the ARCCK (or another suitable agency) as a coordinator as happens in Scotland and they will create a TDA around any job sites you have.
Alternatively 3, make a blind call on guard lifting from field sites if you are really worried.
PS ever heard of head-up displays to prevent heads in operation? They are fitted to all FJ.
Alternatively volunteer to go to war without low level training and see how long you survive.
Alternatively 2, get HEMS to use the ARCCK (or another suitable agency) as a coordinator as happens in Scotland and they will create a TDA around any job sites you have.
Alternatively 3, make a blind call on guard lifting from field sites if you are really worried.
PS ever heard of head-up displays to prevent heads in operation? They are fitted to all FJ.
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Crab,
Surely, you cannot be serious when you say that civilian registered aircraft should be fitted with a military UHF radio? Why don't FJ crews listen out on VHF as their radios already have this facility?
Surely, you cannot be serious when you say that civilian registered aircraft should be fitted with a military UHF radio? Why don't FJ crews listen out on VHF as their radios already have this facility?
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Crab.
Hope you have your tin hat and flack jacket on as you are sure to receive incoming from I've done it, you can't do it as well as me the SilsoeSid.
I also agree with you. Lookout is all important for everybody. It is also sensible for civil too keep out of the 1500ft and below band as much as possible and FJ too keep below 500ft as much as possible.
TCAS would be a great help but blame Gordon Brown for not funding it and MOD civil servants, who too preserve their jobs make even the simplest decisions take years.
2S
Hope you have your tin hat and flack jacket on as you are sure to receive incoming from I've done it, you can't do it as well as me the SilsoeSid.
I also agree with you. Lookout is all important for everybody. It is also sensible for civil too keep out of the 1500ft and below band as much as possible and FJ too keep below 500ft as much as possible.
TCAS would be a great help but blame Gordon Brown for not funding it and MOD civil servants, who too preserve their jobs make even the simplest decisions take years.
2S
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OK 2STROPS if you insist!
crab, in answer to your solutions;
a. 'Try looking out'.
Do you honestly believe that doesn't happen?
What happens when the FJ comes up from the rear 120 degrees?
b. 'Getting yourselves TCAS and UHF equipped'.
And who will pay for that? Oh sorry, the charity will.
FJ will have to have their emitters on for TCAS to work.
c. 'Campaigning to the CAA to have Civvy maps marked with the UKLFS and choke points'.
While we are at it, perhaps the maps can be supplied free of charge to the air ambulances as a charity donation.
You have also missed the point on this one, that the a/c was landing at its home base. So, more prudent methinks that the military maps highlight more the HLSs.
d. 'Subscribe to the big sky theory since there hasn't actually been a mid-air since the jetranger one which resulted in the pipeline inspection notification system'.
YET!!!!!
With respect, IMHO, the biggest problem on this thread, (and no 2STROPS contrary to what you think, I don't think I'm any better than anyone else here), is that most of the air ambulance or police a/c pilots are ex military and have a v.good working knowledge of the UKLFS. On the other hand, I get the impression that those siding with 'the other side' haven't seen it from the other air users point of view.
Other points;
1. 'Alternatively volunteer to go to war without low level training and see how long you survive.'
Unless I have missed it, noone has said anything against the low level flying training being carried out.
2. 'Alternatively 2, get HEMS to use the ARCCK (or another suitable agency) as a coordinator as happens in Scotland and they will create a TDA around any job sites you have.'
And you will be able to get the airborne FJs the message in such a short time for them to be able to stay clear.?
A TDA just to take off and land at operating base?
3. 'Alternatively 3, make a blind call on guard lifting from field sites if you are really worried.'
REPEAT. No UHF radio.
Is it wise to call lifting/departing on an International Distress Frequency?
Do FJ monitor VHF Guard while out on a LL trg sortie?
4. 'PS ever heard of head-up displays to prevent heads in operation? They are fitted to all FJ.'
I think that this is your red herring.
At FJ speed, clearly they are not all they're cracked up to be with FJs not being able to see anyone anyway!
Couldn't the HUD obscure the 'dot' of the GA traffic, until it gets to a decent, too late to react to, size.
Perhaps a few visits are required after all.
crab, in answer to your solutions;
a. 'Try looking out'.
Do you honestly believe that doesn't happen?
What happens when the FJ comes up from the rear 120 degrees?
b. 'Getting yourselves TCAS and UHF equipped'.
And who will pay for that? Oh sorry, the charity will.
FJ will have to have their emitters on for TCAS to work.
c. 'Campaigning to the CAA to have Civvy maps marked with the UKLFS and choke points'.
While we are at it, perhaps the maps can be supplied free of charge to the air ambulances as a charity donation.
You have also missed the point on this one, that the a/c was landing at its home base. So, more prudent methinks that the military maps highlight more the HLSs.
d. 'Subscribe to the big sky theory since there hasn't actually been a mid-air since the jetranger one which resulted in the pipeline inspection notification system'.
YET!!!!!
With respect, IMHO, the biggest problem on this thread, (and no 2STROPS contrary to what you think, I don't think I'm any better than anyone else here), is that most of the air ambulance or police a/c pilots are ex military and have a v.good working knowledge of the UKLFS. On the other hand, I get the impression that those siding with 'the other side' haven't seen it from the other air users point of view.
Other points;
1. 'Alternatively volunteer to go to war without low level training and see how long you survive.'
Unless I have missed it, noone has said anything against the low level flying training being carried out.
2. 'Alternatively 2, get HEMS to use the ARCCK (or another suitable agency) as a coordinator as happens in Scotland and they will create a TDA around any job sites you have.'
And you will be able to get the airborne FJs the message in such a short time for them to be able to stay clear.?
A TDA just to take off and land at operating base?
3. 'Alternatively 3, make a blind call on guard lifting from field sites if you are really worried.'
REPEAT. No UHF radio.
Is it wise to call lifting/departing on an International Distress Frequency?
Do FJ monitor VHF Guard while out on a LL trg sortie?
4. 'PS ever heard of head-up displays to prevent heads in operation? They are fitted to all FJ.'
I think that this is your red herring.
At FJ speed, clearly they are not all they're cracked up to be with FJs not being able to see anyone anyway!
Couldn't the HUD obscure the 'dot' of the GA traffic, until it gets to a decent, too late to react to, size.
Perhaps a few visits are required after all.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 26th Feb 2005 at 03:31.
Even if it were possible to request a TDA in time, an average of 3 TDA's a day on the LL routes either side of Waddo would really impede the LL training in the East!!
TCAS on HEMS would help a great deal. How about the MOD paying for installation? After all they will loose an aircraft as well!
TCAS on HEMS would help a great deal. How about the MOD paying for installation? After all they will loose an aircraft as well!
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Crab do you actually read the posts before you get your shovel out?
The majority of the posts here accept the need for LL training, we should cos most of us are ex military.
There are approx 16 Air Ambulance in the UK we average 3 shouts a day,(max being 15 for this unit) we are airbourne in 2 min, and you suggest we get a TDA for every incident we attend. Mmmm does your boot really fit that well in your mouth?
Blind call, How many times do you need to be told we don't have UHF! We are run by charities and the money is'nt falling of trees hence the lack of TCAS.
Here is an idea, lets cut the crab hotel bill for one exercise and that should pay for TCAS for all the HEMS units in the UK!
Bertie, I'm going to try push CHAS to lobby for TCAS from goverment. May be worth a letter from all HEMS units in that direction. Might be wasted effort but worth a try.
The majority of the posts here accept the need for LL training, we should cos most of us are ex military.
There are approx 16 Air Ambulance in the UK we average 3 shouts a day,(max being 15 for this unit) we are airbourne in 2 min, and you suggest we get a TDA for every incident we attend. Mmmm does your boot really fit that well in your mouth?
Blind call, How many times do you need to be told we don't have UHF! We are run by charities and the money is'nt falling of trees hence the lack of TCAS.
Here is an idea, lets cut the crab hotel bill for one exercise and that should pay for TCAS for all the HEMS units in the UK!
Bertie, I'm going to try push CHAS to lobby for TCAS from goverment. May be worth a letter from all HEMS units in that direction. Might be wasted effort but worth a try.
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Flying Squirrel, come on, don't beat about the bush now......
Thing it's, it's class G airspace so unfortunately it's a free for all. Having flown both inside and outside the military, each side has its own problems and its own job to do. Ranting does little to achieve a solution.
Edit: Ah! I see you have removed your rather offensive post immediately before this one
I agree with Bertie, TCAS is a life saver. (He and I used to fly the same police aircraft). TCAS probably saved our bacon on a number of occasions but unfortunately, it isn't the be all and end all. One particular concern of mine is that a lot of GA pilots (as well as the military) don't use their transponders to best effect, negating the chance of them alerting the crew of a TCAS equipped aircraft of their presence. I started a thread on this about four or five years ago, begging pilots of transponder equipped aircraft to always fly with "Alt" selected. Anyone would think I had tried to take away human rights and was accused of being anti GA etc etc!
Thing it's, it's class G airspace so unfortunately it's a free for all. Having flown both inside and outside the military, each side has its own problems and its own job to do. Ranting does little to achieve a solution.
Edit: Ah! I see you have removed your rather offensive post immediately before this one
I agree with Bertie, TCAS is a life saver. (He and I used to fly the same police aircraft). TCAS probably saved our bacon on a number of occasions but unfortunately, it isn't the be all and end all. One particular concern of mine is that a lot of GA pilots (as well as the military) don't use their transponders to best effect, negating the chance of them alerting the crew of a TCAS equipped aircraft of their presence. I started a thread on this about four or five years ago, begging pilots of transponder equipped aircraft to always fly with "Alt" selected. Anyone would think I had tried to take away human rights and was accused of being anti GA etc etc!
Last edited by ShyTorque; 27th Feb 2005 at 18:20.