Airprox: Harrier vs. Air Ambulance (again!)
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PPRuNe Radar, you must be nine kinds of retarded to have read even the smallest portion of my post and still not be able to answer your own question.
Doesn't say a lot for your consistency or accuracy in checking facts if things don't match up. Have a rest.
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It was obvious who I was replying to unless you didn't understand what was written or thought you had written what was in the "" marks (it means quote)
Bertie at last somebody who doesn't have a prejudiced point to make.
We had a far worse problem than this in Germany in the 70s/80s where the volume of low level FJ traffic was huge. It was not a healthy place to be between 250 and 1000ft. The tactic I used if I had to penetrate that layer was to take off and accelerate to cruise speed while below 250ft. While doing this I would fly a curving course always looking into the turn while my crewman looked behind and out of the turn. While still maintaining the curve I would zoom climb to 1000ft plus.
By flying a curve you are posing a crossing target to a FJ and it is easier for him to pick up a crossing target than a head/tail on target. Landing light on also helps.
This system worked for me and while seeing many FJs I always managed to avoid them.
The only real near miss I had was with an Army scout who managed to take off into a Wessex formation of 18 a/c arranged in two columns down a valley. He ricocheted down the formation and I saw him as a plan view of his underside!!! Not bad nearly 18 airpoxes in about 5 mins.
I hope this helps. Fly safe
2S
It was obvious who I was replying to unless you didn't understand what was written or thought you had written what was in the "" marks (it means quote)
Bertie at last somebody who doesn't have a prejudiced point to make.
We had a far worse problem than this in Germany in the 70s/80s where the volume of low level FJ traffic was huge. It was not a healthy place to be between 250 and 1000ft. The tactic I used if I had to penetrate that layer was to take off and accelerate to cruise speed while below 250ft. While doing this I would fly a curving course always looking into the turn while my crewman looked behind and out of the turn. While still maintaining the curve I would zoom climb to 1000ft plus.
By flying a curve you are posing a crossing target to a FJ and it is easier for him to pick up a crossing target than a head/tail on target. Landing light on also helps.
This system worked for me and while seeing many FJs I always managed to avoid them.
The only real near miss I had was with an Army scout who managed to take off into a Wessex formation of 18 a/c arranged in two columns down a valley. He ricocheted down the formation and I saw him as a plan view of his underside!!! Not bad nearly 18 airpoxes in about 5 mins.
I hope this helps. Fly safe
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
2 Strops,
"Siting an air ambulance base on the edge of a HIRTA (Delford) which is a choke point in the LFS will mean that there will always be a potential conflict with a fast jet avoiding the HIRTA."
Perhaps then, FJs should take 'extreme' caution especially with the HLS, HIRTA and choke points all being at the same place.
I didn't think my view was prejudiced, just a different view from yours, which seems to be simply accepting that this is a potential conflict area.
Is what I have said radically different to Bertie T?
It used to be in Germany that rotary stayed below 200' to avoid conflict. There was no need to go higher! Then it all got complicated!
I would like to ask, when you say, "The tactic I used if I had to penetrate that layer...."
Was there not an SOP at any level for this action, or did you just make it up as you went along ?
18 Wessex down a valley in 2 columns, no right hand rule or perhaps wind consideration??????
That's just asking for a 'what if'. And it did. No room for manoeuvre there!
Was that made up as you went along aswell??
Before the inevitable happens, perhaps now we should ask, whos fault would it be?
FJ not good enough look out, route selection.
Heli pilot for landing / taking off at his HLS / Incident site.
System(s) for not fitting TCAS.
Those who sited HLS.
CAA for approving HLS.
Where will it stop?
"Siting an air ambulance base on the edge of a HIRTA (Delford) which is a choke point in the LFS will mean that there will always be a potential conflict with a fast jet avoiding the HIRTA."
Perhaps then, FJs should take 'extreme' caution especially with the HLS, HIRTA and choke points all being at the same place.
I didn't think my view was prejudiced, just a different view from yours, which seems to be simply accepting that this is a potential conflict area.
Is what I have said radically different to Bertie T?
It used to be in Germany that rotary stayed below 200' to avoid conflict. There was no need to go higher! Then it all got complicated!
I would like to ask, when you say, "The tactic I used if I had to penetrate that layer...."
Was there not an SOP at any level for this action, or did you just make it up as you went along ?
18 Wessex down a valley in 2 columns, no right hand rule or perhaps wind consideration??????
That's just asking for a 'what if'. And it did. No room for manoeuvre there!
Was that made up as you went along aswell??
Before the inevitable happens, perhaps now we should ask, whos fault would it be?
FJ not good enough look out, route selection.
Heli pilot for landing / taking off at his HLS / Incident site.
System(s) for not fitting TCAS.
Those who sited HLS.
CAA for approving HLS.
Where will it stop?
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You seem to be in a combative mood or are you always highly charged. The derogatory comment -"did you make it up as you went along" makes me think you have never been in a combat efficient unit
There was no SOP for climbing out from low level my experience was gained from fighter affil with the Lightnings and in debriefs afterwards we asked what was the worst thing we could do to bring ourselves to their attention. There answer being a climbing turn because we are causing movement in at least 2 axes (understand??).
As for your condescending comment about the the Wessex formation it would be too difficult to explain to somebody as aggressive as yourself. Suffice it to say it was a very professionally led formation which arrived at the designated DOP at the right time with the individual Army elements dropped in the right place to complete their bridge assault. All rules of the air were applied as far as possible when leading a formation at 50ft in a 443 area. The Scout pilot didn't do a clearing turn or was just very unfortunate and very shaken when he left our formation
2S
You seem to be in a combative mood or are you always highly charged. The derogatory comment -"did you make it up as you went along" makes me think you have never been in a combat efficient unit
There was no SOP for climbing out from low level my experience was gained from fighter affil with the Lightnings and in debriefs afterwards we asked what was the worst thing we could do to bring ourselves to their attention. There answer being a climbing turn because we are causing movement in at least 2 axes (understand??).
As for your condescending comment about the the Wessex formation it would be too difficult to explain to somebody as aggressive as yourself. Suffice it to say it was a very professionally led formation which arrived at the designated DOP at the right time with the individual Army elements dropped in the right place to complete their bridge assault. All rules of the air were applied as far as possible when leading a formation at 50ft in a 443 area. The Scout pilot didn't do a clearing turn or was just very unfortunate and very shaken when he left our formation
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
I do apologise for my derogatory remarks 2 Strops, however;
Surely you should have asked what was the 'best' thing you could do to bring yourselves to their attention. 
As far as possible !, How about a safer, yes safer, line astern. 
Probably because he was in a valley!
SS
Sorry again, going way off topic....must regain track!
afterwards we asked what was the worst thing we could do to bring ourselves to their attention.
All rules of the air were applied as far as possible..
The Scout pilot didn't do a clearing turn
SS
Sorry again, going way off topic....must regain track!
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Apology accepted
We asked what was the worst thing we could do because we were doing fighter affil and didn't want to be seen!!
Line astern in the formation couldn't be done as each element had to land at the same time either side of the objective.
In my vocab a clearing turn was taught in the hover either a 90 left/right or if performance allowed a 360. So it can be done in a valley.
As far as your questions go my views are:-
FJ not good enough look out, route selection. - If this happened with helio on finals to HLS then bad route selection going to near a marked HLS
Heli pilot for landing / taking off at his HLS / Incident site. Defensive maneuvering as explained above always assume a FJ is about to get you a la Germany.
System(s) for not fitting TCAS. Very much so this should be mandatory on all low level users. FJ in N Sea look for 0040 on our transponders but TCAS would be far better.
Those who sited HLS. This is not a good site next to a HIRTA near a major motorway interchange which is bound to be used as a turning point/check point by all and sundry. No protection by an ATZ - what is wrong with Staverton the home of BAS!!
CAA for approving HLS. I always like to blame them
Apology accepted
We asked what was the worst thing we could do because we were doing fighter affil and didn't want to be seen!!
Line astern in the formation couldn't be done as each element had to land at the same time either side of the objective.
In my vocab a clearing turn was taught in the hover either a 90 left/right or if performance allowed a 360. So it can be done in a valley.
As far as your questions go my views are:-
FJ not good enough look out, route selection. - If this happened with helio on finals to HLS then bad route selection going to near a marked HLS
Heli pilot for landing / taking off at his HLS / Incident site. Defensive maneuvering as explained above always assume a FJ is about to get you a la Germany.
System(s) for not fitting TCAS. Very much so this should be mandatory on all low level users. FJ in N Sea look for 0040 on our transponders but TCAS would be far better.
Those who sited HLS. This is not a good site next to a HIRTA near a major motorway interchange which is bound to be used as a turning point/check point by all and sundry. No protection by an ATZ - what is wrong with Staverton the home of BAS!!
CAA for approving HLS. I always like to blame them
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For what its worth I think the the HLS is a bit of a red herring. The fact that it Air Ambulance was at its main operating base is a matter for concern, but its far out-weighed by the amount of field landings HEMS aircraft have to make on a day to day basis.
The facts as I see them (for what its worth) are.
HEMS units are funded by charity.
TCAS is expensive.
The trend will be for HEMS units to move their bases to private sites away from airfields to save money.
HEMS land anywhere.
HEMS aircraft have high visibility paint schemes.
The forces need to low fly.
The low flying booking system and ALFIENS never included the civies effectively and probably could'nt.
Millitary aircraft are camouflaged and move fast.
The Military don't always talk to the ATC when outside regulated airspace.
I don't have the answers but I do think the onus lies mainly with military to see and avoid.
I guess its just the "price of freedom".
Safe flying
The facts as I see them (for what its worth) are.
HEMS units are funded by charity.
TCAS is expensive.
The trend will be for HEMS units to move their bases to private sites away from airfields to save money.
HEMS land anywhere.
HEMS aircraft have high visibility paint schemes.
The forces need to low fly.
The low flying booking system and ALFIENS never included the civies effectively and probably could'nt.
Millitary aircraft are camouflaged and move fast.
The Military don't always talk to the ATC when outside regulated airspace.
I don't have the answers but I do think the onus lies mainly with military to see and avoid.
I guess its just the "price of freedom".
Safe flying
So - everyone seems to have gone off on one without knowing whether or not the Harrier pilot in question did see the air ambulance and took sufficient avoiding action (or none at all if not required). Instead the FJ community is pilloried for being a danger to GA just because they fly fast and low - this is particularly amusing since a large proportion of GA traffic has the worst lookout (ie none) of all. After 20 odd years of flying round the UK (in helos) I have had to take avoiding action on more Cessnas and R22s than I ever have on FJ.
What do you expect the Harriers and Tornados to do - flash their lights or waggle their wings to acknowledge they have seen you? Just because they don't do this or don't change course doesn't mean they haven't seen you it's just as likely that they elect to maintain course and know that the seperation will be sufficient. As to being flown over when you are on the ground - helicopters in fields are bloody difficult to see even when you know they are there - if in doubt try a blind call on 300.8 (low level common) or even guard.
All the moaning about FJ low level training will just result in one thing - closing the UKLFS and a gradual but massive reduction in capability for the RAF.
What do you expect the Harriers and Tornados to do - flash their lights or waggle their wings to acknowledge they have seen you? Just because they don't do this or don't change course doesn't mean they haven't seen you it's just as likely that they elect to maintain course and know that the seperation will be sufficient. As to being flown over when you are on the ground - helicopters in fields are bloody difficult to see even when you know they are there - if in doubt try a blind call on 300.8 (low level common) or even guard.
All the moaning about FJ low level training will just result in one thing - closing the UKLFS and a gradual but massive reduction in capability for the RAF.
I remember an auth used in Germany in the '80's to avoid the FJ band; "transit not above 150ft agl"? ( I used to like that one!)
Can't see that going down too well over here!
TCAS might help:
There is a police unit in the Midlands with a FJ transit corridor (1000ft) runnning right over the base HLS. Even in the low hover at the base the (Home Office funded) TCAS would pick up approaching FJ's using the corridor. A major improvement to FS!
And now I'm operating HEMS Public Transport with little notice to adhoc sites in unregulated airspace in busy FJ LL areas, picking up passengers who haven't chosen to fly.
In my opinion not having TCAS in this operation poses extra risk to the public and is a major setback to FS.
Crab. I dont think anyone one this thread is knocking LL FJ training.
Can't see that going down too well over here!
TCAS might help:
There is a police unit in the Midlands with a FJ transit corridor (1000ft) runnning right over the base HLS. Even in the low hover at the base the (Home Office funded) TCAS would pick up approaching FJ's using the corridor. A major improvement to FS!
And now I'm operating HEMS Public Transport with little notice to adhoc sites in unregulated airspace in busy FJ LL areas, picking up passengers who haven't chosen to fly.
In my opinion not having TCAS in this operation poses extra risk to the public and is a major setback to FS.
Crab. I dont think anyone one this thread is knocking LL FJ training.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Good morning crab@;
I would consider anyone a danger to GA if they were flying fast and low, not just FJ, isn't that how accidents happen?
To brand GA traffic the 'worst lookout (ie none )', seems a bit harsh, having sat in a few types of FJ and flown in a Hawk which I'm sure a lot of us here have, the outside view isn't particularly good out of a FJ window now is it?
I'm sure GA don't want to get hit by a FJ as much as FJ don't want to hit GA traffic.
You highlight this when you say, "After 20 odd years of flying round the UK (in helos) I have had to take avoiding action on more Cessnas and R22s than I ever have on FJ."
Thats because of the danger of a FJ, you can't see the blighters! Just because you didn't see it to take avoiding action, doesn't mean they weren't there.Therefore it would seem that it is incumbant for the FJ world to realise this. This is not a theatre of war and as such it MUST be apprecieted that there is other GA traffic out there, that is allowed to be there. I get the feeling here that some think that the FJ world can use the UKLFS with impunity.
Surely the phrase, "FLIGHT SAFETY IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY", must come into this somewhere.
The only time I have seen Harriers / Tornados / Hawks / Jaguars / A10s / F-16s flash their lights or waggle their wings at me was when they had just buzzed me, intentionally or not! More often as not as they come screaming up from behind. I suppose its good fun from the FJ perspective, but WTFWT was a phrase that comes to mind!
Unfortunately, I think I'm safe on this one, Air Ambulances and Police helicopters are not UHF equipped to be able to give a call on 300.8.
Anyway in my experience, military a/c tend to be on a 'chat frequency' and an operating frequency, so what would be the point of that? Assuming of course the FJ pilot knew the area the Heli was taking off from.
What would you suggest we give references to our position from / to in order that the FJ can acknowledge that he is nearby the heli operating area? Airfields / beacons / towns ? You see the problem?
Nobody here want to see the UKLFS 'closed down or reduced', we've all got the T-Shirt etc, but the question still remains, "What can be done to make it safer?"
By the way;
Isn't that 2 things. 
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Have a warm and dry day.
ATB
SS
I would consider anyone a danger to GA if they were flying fast and low, not just FJ, isn't that how accidents happen?
To brand GA traffic the 'worst lookout (ie none )', seems a bit harsh, having sat in a few types of FJ and flown in a Hawk which I'm sure a lot of us here have, the outside view isn't particularly good out of a FJ window now is it?
I'm sure GA don't want to get hit by a FJ as much as FJ don't want to hit GA traffic.
You highlight this when you say, "After 20 odd years of flying round the UK (in helos) I have had to take avoiding action on more Cessnas and R22s than I ever have on FJ."
Thats because of the danger of a FJ, you can't see the blighters! Just because you didn't see it to take avoiding action, doesn't mean they weren't there.Therefore it would seem that it is incumbant for the FJ world to realise this. This is not a theatre of war and as such it MUST be apprecieted that there is other GA traffic out there, that is allowed to be there. I get the feeling here that some think that the FJ world can use the UKLFS with impunity.
Surely the phrase, "FLIGHT SAFETY IS EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY", must come into this somewhere.
The only time I have seen Harriers / Tornados / Hawks / Jaguars / A10s / F-16s flash their lights or waggle their wings at me was when they had just buzzed me, intentionally or not! More often as not as they come screaming up from behind. I suppose its good fun from the FJ perspective, but WTFWT was a phrase that comes to mind!
Unfortunately, I think I'm safe on this one, Air Ambulances and Police helicopters are not UHF equipped to be able to give a call on 300.8.
Anyway in my experience, military a/c tend to be on a 'chat frequency' and an operating frequency, so what would be the point of that? Assuming of course the FJ pilot knew the area the Heli was taking off from.
What would you suggest we give references to our position from / to in order that the FJ can acknowledge that he is nearby the heli operating area? Airfields / beacons / towns ? You see the problem?
Nobody here want to see the UKLFS 'closed down or reduced', we've all got the T-Shirt etc, but the question still remains, "What can be done to make it safer?"
By the way;
All the moaning about FJ low level training will just result in one thing - closing the UKLFS and a gradual but massive reduction in capability for the RAF.
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Have a warm and dry day.
ATB
SS
Well I have to plead guilty to being the one who first suggested Strensham as our Southern operating base! In my defence, there were a whole host of requirements that came before consideration of low flying fast jets. Firstly, it had to be in the best position for the required coverage - additionally, we had to consider crew travelling time, public access, noise complaints etc. Operating from an active airfield brings its own problems, ATC delays, visitors airside, circuit disruption etc.
I would also question whether Defford creates a choke point or whether it is actually used as a target for training sorties!
I for one would not like to see any huge restriction on low flying training in the UK just so long as the Jet Jockies are aware we are there and are keeping a good look out.
TeeS
I would also question whether Defford creates a choke point or whether it is actually used as a target for training sorties!
I for one would not like to see any huge restriction on low flying training in the UK just so long as the Jet Jockies are aware we are there and are keeping a good look out.
TeeS
Crab, I wasn't suggesting that FJ's should spot and avoid me on the ground. It was my(perhaps poor) way of illustrating a perceived risk factor of the chance of a LL midair FJ(v)HEMS in Lincs/Notts area.
1. While on the ground at jobs we are directly overflown low level approx once every 6 months. ( this gives some indication of level of traffic)
2.Approx once every 6 months we "see and mutually avoid" with FJ's at about 250ft while approaching/departing adhoc field sites. (At the same time looking DOWN for wires, fod, horses, etc)
3. We have had 2 Airprox's with FJ's in last 5 years. (Didn't see and avoid each other until V close!)
'High' midair risk factor (if traffic not seen) My estimate for our HEMS unit: once every 500 sorties, ie twice a year.
1. While on the ground at jobs we are directly overflown low level approx once every 6 months. ( this gives some indication of level of traffic)
2.Approx once every 6 months we "see and mutually avoid" with FJ's at about 250ft while approaching/departing adhoc field sites. (At the same time looking DOWN for wires, fod, horses, etc)
3. We have had 2 Airprox's with FJ's in last 5 years. (Didn't see and avoid each other until V close!)
'High' midair risk factor (if traffic not seen) My estimate for our HEMS unit: once every 500 sorties, ie twice a year.
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 24th Feb 2005 at 17:37.
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Well obviously they don't keep a good lookout or they wouldn't have rudely brushed passed me like they did - they have wired seats too, better a few heavy bruises and a broken bone for them, then a wipeout for me ! Speeding up the motorway at 155 in your S class is just as diabolical as flying at 600 knots in highly congested GA traffic areas and crossing major navigational ground features - such as the Tonbridge - Ashford railway line, the UK's straightest bit of track while other innocent pilots are obeying the right hand rule. There are lots of places to do low flying for the RAF and they should be fenced off by NOTAM when in use. I came so close to losing my life that day and I don't really want to be there again. They're the ones with the radar kits on board, they should learn to bloody use them !
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FS
So a FJ "rudely " flashed past you? What did you expect him to do ask for permission!! May I ask what height you were when your incident happened.
As for crossing line features it is done every day of the year you don't expect somebody to approach a line feature fly up it 'til it ends then carry on in the direction they were going, do you??
As for using their radars - which RAF a/c have air/air radars? And which do not; something for you to find out as you broaden your aviation experience. (To start you off -Tornado F3 yes, Hawk no).
Be careful saying that The RAF should be corralled in certain areas. They already are. If you gave the great British public the choice in a referendum:-
"Do you want your lifestyle and country protected from foreign influence by the Armed forces or do you want noisy General Aviation A/c allowed below 2000ft."
What do you think the answer may be
2S
So a FJ "rudely " flashed past you? What did you expect him to do ask for permission!! May I ask what height you were when your incident happened.
As for crossing line features it is done every day of the year you don't expect somebody to approach a line feature fly up it 'til it ends then carry on in the direction they were going, do you??
As for using their radars - which RAF a/c have air/air radars? And which do not; something for you to find out as you broaden your aviation experience. (To start you off -Tornado F3 yes, Hawk no).
Be careful saying that The RAF should be corralled in certain areas. They already are. If you gave the great British public the choice in a referendum:-
"Do you want your lifestyle and country protected from foreign influence by the Armed forces or do you want noisy General Aviation A/c allowed below 2000ft."
What do you think the answer may be
2S
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Mmm, I think we can now see the cut of 2strops' jib!
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Airprox Whitewash
It was only after I very nearly got wiped by a Jaguar that I discovered what a total waste of time the Airprox board is. Jag never saw me, TCAS saved my life - I just managed to dive out of the way before the Jag passed 150' straight over the top of me. The summary of the board was that it examines what actually happened, not what might have happened. Since we didnt collide, there was no risk of collision??????? I beg to differ! The Jag was, it appears, flying too fast, below his weather minima, and not looking out sufficiently to see a high-conspicuity painted, white strobing, TCAS squawking helo with 2 x landing lights on pointing at him. But, the Airprox board is not there to apportion blame.
So - no blame, no risk of collision because we didnt collide. Is the Airprox board just a pointless talking shop? - discuss.
I'll get my coat, Taxi for one!
So - no blame, no risk of collision because we didnt collide. Is the Airprox board just a pointless talking shop? - discuss.
I'll get my coat, Taxi for one!
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Ladies and Gentlemen I would like to add my piece to this discussion in special regard to the data that is marked on the CAA charts and apparently on the charts available to the LL jets.
Where I and one other pilot frequently fly into and of course out of, is marked clearly, for sure on the CAA 1:500,000 chart, and that this information IS available to the LL jet pilots.
We are frequently overflown and sooner or later something will happen. To alert the RAF to my concerns I wrote explaining the risk and asked if pilots would avoid overflying these sites. The answer, sadly was not encouraging and overflights are continuing to occur. It was explained that this was the official policy.
Therefore the attempts to improve my survival rate and perhaps the lives of the other pilot and inocent people have come to nothing.
We have strobes and use the landing light and search light set off to the side to help to be seen.
It is my opinion that the Low Flying undertaken by the fast jets is outdated and the procedures were probably written when there were fewer helicopters in the open FIR. From my knowledge there have been numerous police and air ambulance helicopters brought into service in the past 15 years and all those Robinson helicopters that are now so popular.
There ought to be standard routes for the fast low level jets which are clearly marked on the CAA charts and crossing them would be carried out in the most expeditious way. Is this too much to ask? These routes would be designed to avoid active helipads and once established no helipads would be permitted under these routes. A fair give and take situation.
So that's my pennyworth in this airprox debate.
Where I and one other pilot frequently fly into and of course out of, is marked clearly, for sure on the CAA 1:500,000 chart, and that this information IS available to the LL jet pilots.
We are frequently overflown and sooner or later something will happen. To alert the RAF to my concerns I wrote explaining the risk and asked if pilots would avoid overflying these sites. The answer, sadly was not encouraging and overflights are continuing to occur. It was explained that this was the official policy.
Therefore the attempts to improve my survival rate and perhaps the lives of the other pilot and inocent people have come to nothing.
We have strobes and use the landing light and search light set off to the side to help to be seen.
It is my opinion that the Low Flying undertaken by the fast jets is outdated and the procedures were probably written when there were fewer helicopters in the open FIR. From my knowledge there have been numerous police and air ambulance helicopters brought into service in the past 15 years and all those Robinson helicopters that are now so popular.
There ought to be standard routes for the fast low level jets which are clearly marked on the CAA charts and crossing them would be carried out in the most expeditious way. Is this too much to ask? These routes would be designed to avoid active helipads and once established no helipads would be permitted under these routes. A fair give and take situation.
So that's my pennyworth in this airprox debate.
I dont mind the FJ's myself. Quite exciting really. Its my medics and pax I've got to think of now, they are "public transport" passengers after all.
My best one was in Germany about 1983. A Harrier flew directly just under my Gazelle from behind. I was approx 150ft AGL. I actually heard his engine before I saw him appear underneath me!
I always get a buzz when I see one low level; its the old FAC excitement! How else could I shoot things with my Gazelle?
The A-10's were amusing;
"Hiya Croc" (that I'm afraid to say was my FAC callsign) "this is Pork Flight. We are a pair of A-10s. We have Maverick missiles, 30 mike mike, hersey bars, pepsi cola and superman comics. What trade u got?"
I suppose it's all a bit more serious these days.
My best one was in Germany about 1983. A Harrier flew directly just under my Gazelle from behind. I was approx 150ft AGL. I actually heard his engine before I saw him appear underneath me!
I always get a buzz when I see one low level; its the old FAC excitement! How else could I shoot things with my Gazelle?
The A-10's were amusing;
"Hiya Croc" (that I'm afraid to say was my FAC callsign) "this is Pork Flight. We are a pair of A-10s. We have Maverick missiles, 30 mike mike, hersey bars, pepsi cola and superman comics. What trade u got?"
I suppose it's all a bit more serious these days.
Part of the problem can be laid at the feet of the military.
The UK military still do not appear to have developed a TCAS type equipment of their own. They steadfastly refuse to use TCAS off the shelf, they want a specialised system. Whatever that means.
At the time a Tucano hit [perhaps brushed past would be less violent!] the police Squirrel of Western Counties in September 1997 this gear was 'in development' and I guess it still is. Even then lots of smaller aircraft were never to have 'it' so whats the point? The Tucano pilot was heads down and he came up behind plod who had no TCAS.
Another problem that surfaced at that time was that having no transponder on a RAF aircraft was not a problem as long as the formation had one.... so you get a warning from your TCAS and move out of the way and collect another bit of the fast jet formation.....
I am not aware that anything has changed greatly.....
The UK military still do not appear to have developed a TCAS type equipment of their own. They steadfastly refuse to use TCAS off the shelf, they want a specialised system. Whatever that means.
At the time a Tucano hit [perhaps brushed past would be less violent!] the police Squirrel of Western Counties in September 1997 this gear was 'in development' and I guess it still is. Even then lots of smaller aircraft were never to have 'it' so whats the point? The Tucano pilot was heads down and he came up behind plod who had no TCAS.
Another problem that surfaced at that time was that having no transponder on a RAF aircraft was not a problem as long as the formation had one.... so you get a warning from your TCAS and move out of the way and collect another bit of the fast jet formation.....
I am not aware that anything has changed greatly.....