Elevated Helipads
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 198
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From: Above and Below Zero Lat. [Presently at least]
Q Max
Oh Dear........
I have indeed been slow...........
!!!!!!!!, Burke, Nutter and ...well never mind.
Just checked my "Inbox Resume" file.........thank goodness you were'nt there........as our shreader is presently broken.
Good luck with your dreams.............
I have indeed been slow...........
!!!!!!!!, Burke, Nutter and ...well never mind.
Just checked my "Inbox Resume" file.........thank goodness you were'nt there........as our shreader is presently broken.
Good luck with your dreams.............
Last edited by Old Man Rotor; 2nd November 2002 at 23:09.
Thread Starter
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 79
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From: scotland
Vorticey
Your last post seemed to suggest that I was saying all CAT A take-offs were up to 100'!
My original question was reference a vertical 100' climb for the EC155, for a Helipad departure, helipad suggests a very limited landing area, hence the requirement for height. Obviously if there is a clear area ahead you get your speed then height. I was looking for the benefits of a vertical climb over the more "traditional" up and back. So far it seems a vertical climb is more useful to a lot of operators although I suspect the weight limitations will be more restrictive.
My original question was reference a vertical 100' climb for the EC155, for a Helipad departure, helipad suggests a very limited landing area, hence the requirement for height. Obviously if there is a clear area ahead you get your speed then height. I was looking for the benefits of a vertical climb over the more "traditional" up and back. So far it seems a vertical climb is more useful to a lot of operators although I suspect the weight limitations will be more restrictive.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,835
Likes: 3
From: Philadelphia PA
Bell Helicopter 'Sideways Slide'
developed for the 230 and used there and in the 430 Category A profiles for elevated helipads.
Basically you move sideways and up away from the helipad until your blades are clear of the pad plus 15' or so. Sight picture is well defined in the flight manual. No need for any large power increase over hover power. Prior to getting to the Takeoff Decision Point, any engine problems and you go back to the pad- either with sideways motion, or by turning and pointing back to the pad.
After the TDP, just fly away.
LDP is the same place, alongside the pad with the same sight picture as takeoff.
ADvantages are that there are no large attitude changes, no large power changes over power to hover, and it's very easy to make the return to the pad- always in sight and roll is much easier to make large changes in attitude than pitch.
Now if only we could get this sorted for ground level helipads...
developed for the 230 and used there and in the 430 Category A profiles for elevated helipads.
Basically you move sideways and up away from the helipad until your blades are clear of the pad plus 15' or so. Sight picture is well defined in the flight manual. No need for any large power increase over hover power. Prior to getting to the Takeoff Decision Point, any engine problems and you go back to the pad- either with sideways motion, or by turning and pointing back to the pad.
After the TDP, just fly away.
LDP is the same place, alongside the pad with the same sight picture as takeoff.
ADvantages are that there are no large attitude changes, no large power changes over power to hover, and it's very easy to make the return to the pad- always in sight and roll is much easier to make large changes in attitude than pitch.
Now if only we could get this sorted for ground level helipads...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 62
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From: UK
Yes ... Embarrassing...
Old Man and TC ...
My view has legitamacy, the evidence supports it ... as I said I don't really expect you to change your minds ... but you could engage politely!
I don't really want to p*ss on your bonfire anyway. Live and let live. Each to his own. I withdraw ....
My view has legitamacy, the evidence supports it ... as I said I don't really expect you to change your minds ... but you could engage politely!
I don't really want to p*ss on your bonfire anyway. Live and let live. Each to his own. I withdraw ....
Last edited by Q max; 2nd November 2002 at 13:17.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 171
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From: brighton
Elevated Helipads
Just after some advice and opinions. What are your personal opinions on approaching and landing on an elevated helipad? What would be your thoughts on doing the same to a helipad on a sometimes windy seafront.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: N20,W99
This I know about.
Please look at my webpage to see some elevated pads, use the www button above.
I am not a great expert at anything but one thing I do have experience at is landing at elevated pads!
We operate at elevated pads all day long, and at weights and DA's that do not allow for OGE hover so approaches have to be perfectly timed, so that when you lose ETL you have the pad handy to provide some ground effect, but never coming in too fast.
One thing I do know is that approaches to elevated pads should never have a flare at the end, choose and angle and attitude, keep it and decelerate with collective, feel the aircraft start to mush in, if you feel it mush in before time you should use a little fwd cyclic, if you are flaring to stop at the end you are doing something wrong.
For me a perfect approach to a pad should be with almost 70% of the power requiered to hover IGE to be applied long before you reach the pad, come in loaded.
I usually never approach straight in, I always crab myself away from the pad for better visibilty and chances to dive for speed away from the building in case I have to do a missed.
Never come in too flat, and never too steep, especially if you are heavy,
If you are flying single engine be comfortable with the fact that there is a point during the approach that if the engine quits you will have little chance to continue with your life.
Watch for Satellite dishes in not so frequently used pads, I have blown quite a few of rooftops.
Ahh, careful on the really large buildings, those air conditioning exahust vents can push you back or away from the pad easier than you think!
Once you have made it the pad never forget to position the aircraft regardless of wind with the nose toward the access stairs, I have seen pilots just park it against the wind and having their passengers have to walk towards the the TR to descend from the pad.
For takeoff, be really careful if you are heavy, since when you depart ground effect, you might sink fast and hit the buildng with your boom if you are heavy and departing flat, watch you pedal as soon as you depart the pad, in some pedal limited machines like the the 206 L4 if you pull power to avoid sinking you will spin so fast you'll be staring the the building you just departed in a second. If you are heavy or at altitude and the machine sinks, don't be afraid to point it towards the ground to gain airspeed for a second or two.
I am not a great expert at anything but one thing I do have experience at is landing at elevated pads!
We operate at elevated pads all day long, and at weights and DA's that do not allow for OGE hover so approaches have to be perfectly timed, so that when you lose ETL you have the pad handy to provide some ground effect, but never coming in too fast.
One thing I do know is that approaches to elevated pads should never have a flare at the end, choose and angle and attitude, keep it and decelerate with collective, feel the aircraft start to mush in, if you feel it mush in before time you should use a little fwd cyclic, if you are flaring to stop at the end you are doing something wrong.
For me a perfect approach to a pad should be with almost 70% of the power requiered to hover IGE to be applied long before you reach the pad, come in loaded.
I usually never approach straight in, I always crab myself away from the pad for better visibilty and chances to dive for speed away from the building in case I have to do a missed.
Never come in too flat, and never too steep, especially if you are heavy,
If you are flying single engine be comfortable with the fact that there is a point during the approach that if the engine quits you will have little chance to continue with your life.
Watch for Satellite dishes in not so frequently used pads, I have blown quite a few of rooftops.
Ahh, careful on the really large buildings, those air conditioning exahust vents can push you back or away from the pad easier than you think!
Once you have made it the pad never forget to position the aircraft regardless of wind with the nose toward the access stairs, I have seen pilots just park it against the wind and having their passengers have to walk towards the the TR to descend from the pad.
For takeoff, be really careful if you are heavy, since when you depart ground effect, you might sink fast and hit the buildng with your boom if you are heavy and departing flat, watch you pedal as soon as you depart the pad, in some pedal limited machines like the the 206 L4 if you pull power to avoid sinking you will spin so fast you'll be staring the the building you just departed in a second. If you are heavy or at altitude and the machine sinks, don't be afraid to point it towards the ground to gain airspeed for a second or two.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 19th February 2005 at 05:32.
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 1
From: USA
Blender,
great pics, and very noteworthy in that all the helidecks had nearly perfect design for OEI safety (no wall or parapet, safety nets instead). I can't tell you how many pads I have used on rooftops that had a 3 or 4 foot wall around them!
great pics, and very noteworthy in that all the helidecks had nearly perfect design for OEI safety (no wall or parapet, safety nets instead). I can't tell you how many pads I have used on rooftops that had a 3 or 4 foot wall around them!
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 542
Likes: 5
From: Europe
Blender - more plaudits, great pics, great advice!
Really impressed at how many elevated pads you have in Mexico, and number of machines using them. What rules apply for private and public transport use? Can you do single engine public transport on these pads? Is it hard to get planning permission for such pads? Even thinking of it in London would cause absolute apoplexy, not just with the CAA but with locals and planning authorities too. Seems you live in a very liberated society! Green with envy!
What sort of AS and VS are you maintaining on the approach? What height do you start to bleed off the AS?
Really impressed at how many elevated pads you have in Mexico, and number of machines using them. What rules apply for private and public transport use? Can you do single engine public transport on these pads? Is it hard to get planning permission for such pads? Even thinking of it in London would cause absolute apoplexy, not just with the CAA but with locals and planning authorities too. Seems you live in a very liberated society! Green with envy!
What sort of AS and VS are you maintaining on the approach? What height do you start to bleed off the AS?
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 171
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From: brighton
Thanks for all the info blender and nice pics. I personally am not looking to land on an elevated pad, but i am looking at the possible instalation of a elevated pad, it is quite near a blustery seafront, so not sure if that would cause many problems. Thanks again.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 103
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From: USA
Tony,
You are "looking at" the possible installation of an elevated pad near a windy seafront, eh? But you're not looking to land on it yourself, eh? So...what, you're looking for reasons to stop it? What's your angle here?
Landing on an elevated deck near a seashore is no different than landing on an elevated deck anywhere else....except that there will probably always be some wind blowing. And that's a good thing.
You are "looking at" the possible installation of an elevated pad near a windy seafront, eh? But you're not looking to land on it yourself, eh? So...what, you're looking for reasons to stop it? What's your angle here?
Landing on an elevated deck near a seashore is no different than landing on an elevated deck anywhere else....except that there will probably always be some wind blowing. And that's a good thing.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 171
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From: brighton
Rotordog, i am in no way trying to stop this, i would like to install this. But i am not a pilot so my angle is to find out from a pilots view if there would be any additional difficulties with a coastal elevated helipad.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
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From: UK
Tony,
Going back to your original question, it does not really matter what someone personally thinks - the rules need to be followed. And, of course, because we are talking UK, there are lots of them.
Is this flight to be public transport or private? Is it to be SE or ME? What type of hele?
In terms of location, it matters little that it is on a seafront (in terms of the rules). What surrounds the helipad - are the surroundings a congested area or hostile terrain?
What is the size and shape of the pad and its immediate surroundings?
Going back to your original question, it does not really matter what someone personally thinks - the rules need to be followed. And, of course, because we are talking UK, there are lots of them.
Is this flight to be public transport or private? Is it to be SE or ME? What type of hele?
In terms of location, it matters little that it is on a seafront (in terms of the rules). What surrounds the helipad - are the surroundings a congested area or hostile terrain?
What is the size and shape of the pad and its immediate surroundings?
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Over here
Tony, I've spent over 20 years landing on elevated pads offshore, and have done close to 20,000 - 9000 in about 6 months once. The wind is generally a good thing, until it starts having the flow interruped and redirected. If you do install a pad, try to have a breezeway under it, so the wind can blow underneath, and not be entirely redirected upward, which results in it blowing almost directly downwards on the downwind side, which can make for interesting approaches, and very interesting shutdowns and startups. The main rotors can strike the tailboom easily under those conditions. The worst thing you can have is a completely vertical wall right up to the pad - a breezeway underneath, 20' or higher, makes a world of difference.
